sword [or other non projectile weapon] vs handgun - Page 2

Doc Hudson · April 22, 2001, 10:00 PM

Spectre,

Canes lacking edge might only be a matter of degree.

While my CaneMasters.Com cane does not have a razor sharp edge, it does have a sharp striking edge that will break skin and bone if properly applied.

It also has a very sharp point on the horn that, if applied with sufficient force, would easily penetrate soft tissue such as throats or bellies.

While is does yeoman work supporting my rapidly worsening knees, it is designed primarily as a weapon and secondarily as a support.

Check http://www.canemasters.com out and give Master Mark Shuey a call to discuss canes.

Feel free to mention me as a happy customer.

Doc Hudson

Art Eatman · April 22, 2001, 11:36 PM

There was a guy in Austin, Texas, Jerry Robinette, who taught unarmed self-defense as well as s-d pistol and, germane to this thread, the use of the cane. I don't know if he's still going, since he's probably older than I am; possibly his sons...He was one of those USAF guys of the 1950s who was stationed in Japan, and got black belts in Everything.

At any rate, the things a trained "caner" can do are absolutely devastating! Robinette's demonstrations made a believer out of me...

Oh, well. For that matter, don't get goosey with a guy on crutches. Talk about reach! And he's still tripod-balanced!

, Art

Skorzeny · April 23, 2001, 02:59 AM

For a fun treatment of the topic at hand (gun versus sword), check out an Akira Kurosawa movie called "Yojimbo," starring Toshiro Mifune.

It was later re-made by Walter Hill a la 1920's USA in "Last Man Standing" with Bruce Willis.

Skorzeny

Spectre · April 23, 2001, 06:41 AM

Be nice to make it to the GA meet. Sensop and Edmund Rowe are good people- even if Sensop's on the crochety side!

Glamdring · April 23, 2001, 07:56 AM

I thought "Last Man Standing" was a remake of "A Fistful of Dollars"?

I would like to see a house clearing exercise with some of the Goblin's armed with Shinai, don't think using bokken's are a good idea for force on force!!!

I think that having a swordfighter going against a gunfighter at close range using shinai & simunitions makes sense. Not because it is likely to happen that way in the real world, but because one would start to get an idea of what techniques might work up close, where most events occur. If you want to make it more realistic just have the Goblin start with weapon in hand and the "goodguy" with weapon in a concealed holster say a IWB with covering garment or a pocket holster.

Art Eatman · April 23, 2001, 08:14 AM

Glamdring, digressing again--as I do so well--ain't it a shame that the Good Guy must, by law, be so handicapped as to have his own weapon in concealment, in an awkward position for ready use? Further, that we here in these discussions take it for granted that such be the case?

Grumble, gritch...

Art

PaladinX13 · April 23, 2001, 10:47 AM

Glamdring, I was under the impression safety equipment was being worn (even a Shinai can seriously hurt) so I figured bokken was a better choice... more similar handling characteristics, plus you could paint the edge for markings in the way simunitions will leave a print. If no "armor" then I'd still opt for a weighted foam bokken over a shinai for safety and the edge painting... try painting a shinai and you'll get a big smear on your target!

Hell, I'd propose a safe version of this as an alterative to paintball! Simunitions ought to be an airsofter's dream while swordsmen get to play out their fantasy of taking out a gunmen with only his blade.

Spectre · April 23, 2001, 04:32 PM

fukero (sp?) shinai are what we typically use. These are softer, and covered with leather. They can still cut/injure if you strike in the face, though- one person I know of got a detached retina doing sword on sword drills...

9mmepiphany · April 24, 2001, 04:02 PM

paladinx13 - just as a point of reference concerning how "deadly" bokken are...in the later part of his life, musashi fought duels, against men with swords, using only bokken rather than his katana. bear in mind that duels usually ended in death back then.

question for all - is it really illegal to carry a sword, in a sheath, in public? in CA we have laws about concealable guns and knives (loaded/unloaded, size, opening method, disguised...), but a sword is not considered a "concealable weapon".

are there different or specific laws that cover the carry of swords in public...

should this properly be another thread? moderators?

PaladinX13 · April 24, 2001, 05:54 PM

I'm aware of the legendary Musashi's exploits with a "mere" wooden sword (or even a broken oar at one point), but his opponents weren't wearing Kendo safety equipment or Kydex armor. The shinai I'm familiar with will leave a serious open welt so I figure safety gear is a must either way...

Art Eatman · April 24, 2001, 08:46 PM

I don't have it in front of me, but I think Texas law even gets into "if it could be used as a weapon" in its prohibitions. (Possibly "intent" is included; don't remember.)

In Texas, swords "on the street" are a no-no, sheathed or not.

Art

April 22, 2001, 10:00 PM	#26
Doc Hudson Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2001 Location: Mississippi Delta Posts: 635	re: canes & " their lack of edge" Spectre, Canes lacking edge might only be a matter of degree. While my CaneMasters.Com cane does not have a razor sharp edge, it does have a sharp striking edge that will break skin and bone if properly applied. It also has a very sharp point on the horn that, if applied with sufficient force, would easily penetrate soft tissue such as throats or bellies. While is does yeoman work supporting my rapidly worsening knees, it is designed primarily as a weapon and secondarily as a support. Check http://www.canemasters.com out and give Master Mark Shuey a call to discuss canes. Feel free to mention me as a happy customer. Doc Hudson

April 23, 2001, 02:59 AM	#28
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	For a fun treatment of the topic at hand (gun versus sword), check out an Akira Kurosawa movie called "Yojimbo," starring Toshiro Mifune. It was later re-made by Walter Hill a la 1920's USA in "Last Man Standing" with Bruce Willis. Skorzeny __________________ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

April 22, 2001, 11:36 PM	#27
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	There was a guy in Austin, Texas, Jerry Robinette, who taught unarmed self-defense as well as s-d pistol and, germane to this thread, the use of the cane. I don't know if he's still going, since he's probably older than I am; possibly his sons...He was one of those USAF guys of the 1950s who was stationed in Japan, and got black belts in Everything. At any rate, the things a trained "caner" can do are absolutely devastating! Robinette's demonstrations made a believer out of me... Oh, well. For that matter, don't get goosey with a guy on crutches. Talk about reach! And he's still tripod-balanced! , Art

April 23, 2001, 06:41 AM	#29
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Be nice to make it to the GA meet. Sensop and Edmund Rowe are good people- even if Sensop's on the crochety side!

April 23, 2001, 07:56 AM	#30
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	I thought "Last Man Standing" was a remake of "A Fistful of Dollars"? I would like to see a house clearing exercise with some of the Goblin's armed with Shinai, don't think using bokken's are a good idea for force on force!!! I think that having a swordfighter going against a gunfighter at close range using shinai & simunitions makes sense. Not because it is likely to happen that way in the real world, but because one would start to get an idea of what techniques might work up close, where most events occur. If you want to make it more realistic just have the Goblin start with weapon in hand and the "goodguy" with weapon in a concealed holster say a IWB with covering garment or a pocket holster.

April 23, 2001, 08:14 AM	#31
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Glamdring, digressing again--as I do so well--ain't it a shame that the Good Guy must, by law, be so handicapped as to have his own weapon in concealment, in an awkward position for ready use? Further, that we here in these discussions take it for granted that such be the case? Grumble, gritch... Art

April 23, 2001, 10:47 AM	#32
PaladinX13 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 519	Glamdring, I was under the impression safety equipment was being worn (even a Shinai can seriously hurt) so I figured bokken was a better choice... more similar handling characteristics, plus you could paint the edge for markings in the way simunitions will leave a print. If no "armor" then I'd still opt for a weighted foam bokken over a shinai for safety and the edge painting... try painting a shinai and you'll get a big smear on your target! Hell, I'd propose a safe version of this as an alterative to paintball! Simunitions ought to be an airsofter's dream while swordsmen get to play out their fantasy of taking out a gunmen with only his blade.

April 23, 2001, 04:32 PM	#33
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	fukero (sp?) shinai are what we typically use. These are softer, and covered with leather. They can still cut/injure if you strike in the face, though- one person I know of got a detached retina doing sword on sword drills...

April 24, 2001, 04:02 PM	#34
9mmepiphany Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2000 Location: northern california Posts: 1,092	paladinx13 - just as a point of reference concerning how "deadly" bokken are...in the later part of his life, musashi fought duels, against men with swords, using only bokken rather than his katana. bear in mind that duels usually ended in death back then. question for all - is it really illegal to carry a sword, in a sheath, in public? in CA we have laws about concealable guns and knives (loaded/unloaded, size, opening method, disguised...), but a sword is not considered a "concealable weapon". are there different or specific laws that cover the carry of swords in public... should this properly be another thread? moderators?

April 24, 2001, 05:54 PM	#35
PaladinX13 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 519	I'm aware of the legendary Musashi's exploits with a "mere" wooden sword (or even a broken oar at one point), but his opponents weren't wearing Kendo safety equipment or Kydex armor. The shinai I'm familiar with will leave a serious open welt so I figure safety gear is a must either way...

April 24, 2001, 08:46 PM	#36
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I don't have it in front of me, but I think Texas law even gets into "if it could be used as a weapon" in its prohibitions. (Possibly "intent" is included; don't remember.) In Texas, swords "on the street" are a no-no, sheathed or not. Art