Grizzly rifles, confusing issue - Page 2

NWCP · February 15, 2012, 05:35 AM

Most everything I've read regarding dangerous game in Alaska the general consensus was a .338 WinMag at a minimum for the big bears. I have a .338 WinMag in a BAR and that's what I bought it for years ago. Never did get around to bear hunting with it though. I suppose the 300 WM would perform well enough, but I'd rather err on the side of prudence rather than use a round thinking as long as the animal isn't charging me and presents a nice broadside shot I should be OK. Recoil wise the .338 is about the most I can handle without losing a retina or all of my fillings. At 225, or 250 grains the .338 packs a lot of energy for quite some distance while still being quite accurate. From 50 to 300 yards it's like a running into a brick wall and many bear are taken at close ranges. Mine has a medium power wide view scope mounted on it with a limb saver pad. Even with the recoil absorbing semi auto action it is still an attention getter when sighting in each year before hunting season. I know some guys that the recoil over a day of shooting doesn't seem to bother much. Between the cost of the ammo and the recoil of the rifle I'm good long enough to verify my scope is still on the money and everything is functioning well.

Rifleman1776 · February 15, 2012, 02:25 PM

A lot of well reasoned responses here to my question. And many of them are the voices of first hand experience. I learned a lot. When/if I ever get to go on that dream bucket list hunt, y'all have helped me.
Now, I'll add to the bucket wish question. And, I hope the mods don't bounce this.
My real shooting passion is with traditional style muzzle loading rifles.
Now, if any of you have experience with those, what would you say to using a patched round ball in a .54 cal. flintlock rifle with stout black powder charges? By stout I mean in the 120 to 200 gr. range. (normal charges would be about 70 to 100 gr.)
Of course, this on a big coastal brown bear.

Edit: Meant to say "Thank Y'all" for the responses. Thankee.

jgcoastie · February 15, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmr40

I don't completely understand your logic. The one point where we agree is that a 300 mag doesn't offer any advantages at close range over a properly loaded 308 or 30-06. The extra velocity just adds effective range, not close range killing power.

But I think your 45-70 theory is flawed. While it does not have "magnum" on the headstamp, when you get to the power levels needed for large bear, it is a magnum.

A 220 gr Nosler partition fired at 30-06 or 300 mag velocities will have no trouble holding together and has proven to out penetrate 45-70 loads.

Then there is the recoil factor:

My 8 lb 30-06 loaded with 220 gr partitions @ 2500 fps will generate 24 ft. lbs. of recoil.

My 8 lb 300 WSM with the same bullet @ 2650 will generate about 28 ft. lbs. of recoil.

My 7.5 lb 45-70 loaded with 405 gr bullets @1850 fps will generate over 40 ft. lbs. of recoil.

I can't see having a round that has close to double the recoil that does not offer me any performance advantages over a 30-06. While you have a disdain for a magnum, it actually does the same job with far less recoil. Sure, if you are using a 300 mag with light 150 gr bullets @ 3400 fps they will not get the job done, but neither will a 300 gr 45-70 bullet @ 2500 fps.

My personal choice would be the 30-06 because of easy availibility of good ammo and the fact that at closer ranges the 300 mag would offer no real advantage. But if I happened to have the 300 in my hands it would not be a disadvantage and would be a slight advantage if a longer shot were needed.

I've owned a Marlin 45-70 for close to 40 years and it would stay at home. I have no doubts that a properly loaded round would get the job done, but it wouldn't do it a bit better than many others, with much less fuss and recoil.

The biggest problem with the 45-70 is not the chambering, but the package. At those recoil levels I can shoot a bolt rifle faster for repeat shots than a lever action. I've simply had too many reliability issues with lever guns to trust my life to one either. When you get into really hot loads in any action type you are asking for trouble but bolt guns handle them much better. They are also by far the most bulletproof and reliable, especially under harsh use and weather conditions encountered on such a hunt.

- I agree with you that the .300 W/M offers no distinct advantage over a .30/06.

- I disagree that the .300 W/M offers equal performance to the .45/70 with less recoil.

The recoil figures you posted seem accurate enough. However, there is a big difference between actual recoil and felt recoil. I've shot many a .300 W/M in many different rifle types. Can't stand the recoil. Might be because the stocks don't fit me well, might be because I'm just a pansy. Oh well. The felt recoil of my .45/70, for me, is not too bad and is on par with the recoil of my .30/06 A-Bolt. Again, might be because the stock fits me better, might be because I've put the right recoil pad on it. Oh well. That's my personal experience, and no amount of data calculations will exactly replicate any of our personal experiences.

- As far as the .300 W/M or .30/06 with a 220gr Partition out penetrating a .45/70 with 405gr loads... Well, color me skeptical, but I don't believe it. I don't have anything against the Partition, but it's difficult for me to believe that a 405gr hardcast lead solid would be out-penetrated by one in a big brown bear. I don't think the Partition has the mojo to break through multiple layers of bone and tough muscle and still have the energy to disrupt and destroy vital organs as reliably as the .45/70. You will absolutely not convince me that it has the snuff to penetrate the skull of a Kodiak Coastal Brownie from a frontal shot. FYI, the .45/70 does with 405gr solids, seen it firsthand. And by firsthand, I put my finger in the bullet hole that went through the boss of the skull and turned the brain into jelly.

- In Georgia, maybe .30/06 or .300 W/M ammo is more available, but in Alaska, .45/70 ammo is equal to them in terms of availability. If you don't believe me, call Mack's Sport Shop in Kodiak and ask them how many types of each caliber they normally keep in stock.

- There is no general problem with the "packaging" (meaning, I assume, the type of rifle) of the .45/70. No, it's not a bolt gun. You are able to work a bolt faster than a lever, there's nothing wrong with that. You've had reliability issues with a lever, most of those issues can be fixed easily. But just because you or I have good experiences with a particular type of rifle action, doesn't make them the best out there. I can work a lever just fine, and I've never had any reliability issues with my rifle. Does that make it a better gun? For me, yes. For you, maybe not. That's the beauty of a free market system, you can buy and use whatever you like.

The most bulletproof and reliable action type (yes, more so than a bolt action), is a break-action single shot. But I didn't see to many bear hunters or guides grabbing their NEF Handi-Rifles to go get Yogi... There's always a compromise of some sort with any type of firearm. The trick is to understand each rifle's benefits and drawbacks.

I like my .45/70 because it's a lot shorter than a .300 W/M, it packs a whallop on whatever you hit, it penetrates like nobody's business, is reliable, and offers a quicker follow-up shot compared to a bolt action for me. It's a rifle that works in Alaska. Many others do too, but my experiences and the advice of several guides and more experienced Alaskan hunters led me to it, and I will not look back.

YMMV. (And probably will.)

jgcoastie · February 15, 2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rifleman1776

A lot of well reasoned responses here to my question. And many of them are the voices of first hand experience. I learned a lot. When/if I ever get to go on that dream bucket list hunt, y'all have helped me.
Now, I'll add to the bucket wish question. And, I hope the mods don't bounce this.
My real shooting passion is with traditional style muzzle loading rifles.
Now, if any of you have experience with those, what would you say to using a patched round ball in a .54 cal. flintlock rifle with stout black powder charges? By stout I mean in the 120 to 200 gr. range. (normal charges would be about 70 to 100 gr.)
Of course, this on a big coastal brown bear.

Edit: Meant to say "Thank Y'all" for the responses. Thankee.

I wouldn't use blackpowder for the simple fact of the smoke generated when you touch off a round. It would make it much harder for the guide to see what the bear (and maybe even other bears in the vicinity) is/are doing. And the guide is going to position themselves directly near you, generally a few feet to the side and a foot or two behind you.

And that's assuming you could find a guide that would allow you to hunt with it, which is unlikely in and of itself. You might have better luck with a smokeless powder, like Pyrodex.

Also keep in mind that there's a seperate qualification license for hunting with muzzleloaders and bows in Alaska.

Magnum Wheel Man · February 15, 2012, 03:03 PM

personally if you are comfortable with a muzzleloader... if your guide will allow it... I say go for it... I would think it a great time to buy one of those side by side double rifles in 50 / 54 caliber... as far as the smoke, I'm sure the guide can position himself in a good position, if he's had other smoke pole shooters with him before...

I'm sure there will be those that poo poo the muzzleloader, but personally I'd rather have one of those, than try it with a bow, & lord knows there are plenty of those "crazy" bow hunters out there...

as far as loads... I'd choose something more sane, & or at the least, as hot a load as you can still get good accuracy, & consistant velocity...

BTW... I also love the 45-70, & in a guide gun think it would make a formidable weapon... I have some hot lead gas check handloads I picked up the recipe from a magazine that the author ( some famous guy ) used to shoot cape buffalo in Africa... his guide was not happy, when the bullet shot through the big bull that the author was shooting, & also killed a cow standing behind the intended target... with loads like that, safe, likely only in the Marlins, I'd say it's got plenty of penitration for big bears...

BTW #2... if you are shooting these beastly kind of loads ( my rifle is ported & has a good recoil pad, with a leather butt cuff with some extra cartridges )... make sure they feed 100%, that you can handle shooting them, & accurately, & that the sights can handle the recoil... mine sheared the screws off the stock sights after 5 shots when sighting in these hot loads... that has since been fixed, & the rifle is now "bear proof"

roklok · February 15, 2012, 05:04 PM

The extra qualifications for Bow and Muzzleloader only apply for special hunts restricted to those weapons. No restrictions if using a Muzzleloader on a hunt where a rifle would be legal.

I have a goal of killing a grizzly with a flintlock and PRB. I like my .54s, but for a grizzly I will use my .60 , just more weight and a bigger hole. I may give it a try this fall.

Alaska444 · February 15, 2012, 10:52 PM

Quote:

- I agree with you that the .300 W/M offers no distinct advantage over a .30/06.

- I disagree that the .300 W/M offers equal performance to the .45/70 with less recoil.
The recoil figures you posted seem accurate enough. However, there is a big difference between actual recoil and felt recoil. I've shot many a .300 W/M in many different rifle types. Can't stand the recoil. Might be because the stocks don't fit me well, might be because I'm just a pansy. Oh well. The felt recoil of my .45/70, for me, is not too bad and is on par with the recoil of my .30/06 A-Bolt. Again, might be because the stock fits me better, might be because I've put the right recoil pad on it. Oh well. That's my personal experience, and no amount of data calculations will exactly replicate any of our personal experiences.
- As far as the .300 W/M or .30/06 with a 220gr Partition out penetrating a .45/70 with 405gr loads... Well, color me skeptical, but I don't believe it. I don't have anything against the Partition, but it's difficult for me to believe that a 405gr hardcast lead solid would be out-penetrated by one in a big brown bear. I don't think the Partition has the mojo to break through multiple layers of bone and tough muscle and still have the energy to disrupt and destroy vital organs as reliably as the .45/70. You will absolutely not convince me that it has the snuff to penetrate the skull of a Kodiak Coastal Brownie from a frontal shot. FYI, the .45/70 does with 405gr solids, seen it firsthand. And by firsthand, I put my finger in the bullet hole that went through the boss of the skull and turned the brain into jelly.

- In Georgia, maybe .30/06 or .300 W/M ammo is more available, but in Alaska, .45/70 ammo is equal to them in terms of availability. If you don't believe me, call Mack's Sport Shop in Kodiak and ask them how many types of each caliber they normally keep in stock.

- There is no general problem with the "packaging" (meaning, I assume, the type of rifle) of the .45/70. No, it's not a bolt gun. You are able to work a bolt faster than a lever, there's nothing wrong with that. You've had reliability issues with a lever, most of those issues can be fixed easily. But just because you or I have good experiences with a particular type of rifle action, doesn't make them the best out there. I can work a lever just fine, and I've never had any reliability issues with my rifle. Does that make it a better gun? For me, yes. For you, maybe not. That's the beauty of a free market system, you can buy and use whatever you like.

The most bulletproof and reliable action type (yes, more so than a bolt action), is a break-action single shot. But I didn't see to many bear hunters or guides grabbing their NEF Handi-Rifles to go get Yogi... There's always a compromise of some sort with any type of firearm. The trick is to understand each rifle's benefits and drawbacks.

I like my .45/70 because it's a lot shorter than a .300 W/M, it packs a whallop on whatever you hit, it penetrates like nobody's business, is reliable, and offers a quicker follow-up shot compared to a bolt action for me. It's a rifle that works in Alaska. Many others do too, but my experiences and the advice of several guides and more experienced Alaskan hunters led me to it, and I will not look back.

YMMV. (And probably will.)

I am not sure why calibers such the .416 Rigby seldom come up in these discussions. Not something I wish to punish myself with, but if I lived in coastal Alaska, it would certainly be consideration with over 5000 ft-pds of muzzle energy, it has the ability to put one of these critters down quickly.

http://www.hornady.com/store/416-Rigby-400-gr-DGX/

jgcoastie · February 16, 2012, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roklok

The extra qualifications for Bow and Muzzleloader only apply for special hunts restricted to those weapons. No restrictions if using a Muzzleloader on a hunt where a rifle would be legal.

Hmm, I was not aware of that. I had assumed the extra qual was for being able to hunt with one, I didn't realize it was hunt-specific. Thanks for the info.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaska444

I am not sure why calibers such the .416 Rigby seldom come up in these discussions. Not something I wish to punish myself with, but if I lived in coastal Alaska, it would certainly be consideration with over 5000 ft-pds of muzzle energy, it has the ability to put one of these critters down quickly.

It seems you and I always end up in these bear threads... All of them

.

My first though about the .416 and up class of "African-class" guns is this: Plenty of power to knock the bear down right then.

My second thought is the somewhat unwieldy length of the rifle in the often thick woods and brush of coastal Alaska. It's uncommon for trophy-class bears to just be out and about in the middle of a field somewhere...

My third thought is the uncommon ammo availibility in most smaller coastal Alaskan towns compared to the other cartridges in this discussion.

The latter of those three is probably the main reason you don't see more "African-class" guns in coastal Alaska.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum Wheel Man

BTW... I also love the 45-70, & in a guide gun think it would make a formidable weapon... I have some hot lead gas check handloads I picked up the recipe from a magazine that the author ( some famous guy ) used to shoot cape buffalo in Africa... his guide was not happy, when the bullet shot through the big bull that the author was shooting, & also killed a cow standing behind the intended target... with loads like that, safe, likely only in the Marlins, I'd say it's got plenty of penitration for big bears...

Agreed 100%. My handloads with 405gr hardcast solids (yes, gas-checked) get a bit over 1700fps out of an 18" barrel. I don't remember the charge, I'd have to look at my load diary and I'm underway right now. But I can tell you that it will fully penetrate three steel man-hole covers at 150yds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum Wheel Man

BTW #2... if you are shooting these beastly kind of loads ( my rifle is ported & has a good recoil pad, with a leather butt cuff with some extra cartridges )... make sure they feed 100%, that you can handle shooting them, & accurately, & that the sights can handle the recoil... mine sheared the screws off the stock sights after 5 shots when sighting in these hot loads... that has since been fixed, & the rifle is now "bear proof"

Also agreed 100%. I have WWG ghost ring sights, WWG Trigger Hapy kit (local gunsmith installed), and a WWG Bear Proof Ejector. I also put a Pachmeyer recoil pad on there to help dampen the recoil a bit. I didn't have mine ported, I shot a couple that were and I didn't feel a difference. I thought about a muzzle break from WWG, but my 7mm-08 BAR is pretty dern loud with it's BOSS muzzle break and I didn't want to test the fortitude of my eardrums that much with a .45/70. It's loud enough with the 18" barrel... I had the smith that installed the trigger go ahead and polish up the feed ramp and smooth out any burrs/machining marks in the action. It's smooth as glass and locks up like a bank vault. I couldn't be happier with mine.

Alaska444 · February 16, 2012, 12:41 AM

Good points JG, and yes, we do always end up on the bear threads at TFL.

Me, I try to avoid bears out in the woods but want to be prepared in the rare event of one of them finding me up in Idaho. Ammo availability is an important issue and the 45-70 with proper loads certainly has the ability to make a bad day for the bear.

I would expect to have seen more African caliber rifles especially in the hunting parties. Many do take .375 H&H which is considered African caliber. I never went to Kodiak when I was a kid up in Alaska so I can't comment on the amount of brush, but I don't think of that sort of scenario chasing a bear through thick brush as my sort of idea of fun. No thanks, especially for 20k at a pop.

reoader22 · February 16, 2012, 03:55 AM

shot placement shot placement shot placement..... u can kill any northamerican big game animal with just about any caliber out thre, ITS ALL ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT. farmers for years have killed thousands of cows with One shot kills wi a 22 rimfire not saying it would bea smart thing to go after a grizzly bear with a 22 but it can be done there was an old indian woman in the town where i live in bc that killed a grizzley bear with a 22. I have a friend that shoots a 338 win mag at deer lol sometimes he hits one and sometimes tehy die and sometimes they dont he shot a deer lat year with his cannon (338 win mag) last year in the hind quarters the deer was never found it probobly died but if he had hit it in the lungs it would hve died faster. a grizzlys head beats at a minimun one time per second dont quote me on that but that is what i understand, now if u put a .243 calbullet or a .50 cal bullet through that heart what do u think is gonna happen? use a gun that is comfortable for you to shoot accuratly with a bullet that will penotrate and not explade on impact. personally i love horandy sst bullets.

jgcoastie · February 16, 2012, 12:11 PM

Proper grammar, grammar, grammar.... It goes a long way towards getting your point across...

Though from what I can gather from your post, (I think) you're saying that a .243 Win and a .50 BMG are equally deadly on bears. If we're talking deer or something similar, even smaller black bears, I would tend to agree with you. However, your assumption is based on another unlikely assumption that a .243 Win has the power/energy and toughness to reach the heart of a big bear.

It does not, at least not reliably. And you'd never find a guide that would allow you to hunt with a .243 Win for Kodiak Coastal Brownies.

And as far as the old lady in your village taking on a bear with a .22lr. Well, if true, then I'll say this... A couple of weeks ago, there was a guy in this area that tried to win a gunfight with his 9mm v.s. a S.W.A.T team... Neither people in these two stories seem to be of much measurable intelligence...

jmr40 · February 16, 2012, 07:46 PM

As someone who has been there and done that I do value your opinion. I'm certain it carries more weight than a Gerogia boy who will probably never go there. But you are not the only person who has BTDT in Alaska and I'm basing my opinions on the collective information shared to me by many others who have actually hunted the big bears. You are one of the few I've run across who have actually hunted big bears that cares for the 45-70.

Based on information I've gathered you can choose from a 30-06, 300 or 7mm mag, 45-70, 444, 35 Whelen, 338-06, or even 338 Win mag. Pick the best bullets for each chambering and expect the exact same results. In other words they all work most of the time. If you make a poor shot and things go bad none do any better job of stopping a charge than the others. I've been advised that if that happens something in the order of a 375 mag or up is the only thing that seems to matter.

I'd choose a heavy loaded '06 for a several reasons. #1, since nothing with more recoil seems to be any better, why not choose the one with the least recoil. #2, since multiple shots could be necessary I feel the 5+1 mag capacity more than offsets the extra velocity of the 3+1 mag capacity of a magnum gun. The lower recoil helps with faster repeat shots as well. #3, nothing is as time tested. I'd wager money that in the last 100 years a 30-06 has accounted for more grizzly than any other chambering. Maybe more than all others combined. It just works, and has been proven to work.

Not so with a 45-70. While it has been around longer, it was conceived as a military round and rarely used for hunting. It was only in military service for a few years and in it's black powder form was considered too light for most large western game such as grizzly, and bison. From the 1890's to the 1970's(almost 80 years) it was a dormant, almost dead chambering. It has only been within the last few years that the really hot loadings have been available and used on really large game. While I think it would work just fine, there simply isn't nearly that many large animals ever taken with the round to prove it is superior.

warbirdlover · February 16, 2012, 07:48 PM

How often in hunting situations are you in a situation guaranteeing perfect shot placement? And big animals can take alot of abuse, no matter how good the shot placement. I can't imagine an experienced bear guide allowing his clients to use pee shooters and increasing the danger since they really don't know how accurately these clients can shoot under stress.

jmr40 · February 16, 2012, 07:52 PM

One other note to someone considering a brown bear hunt. Some have posted about how hard and expensive it is and that it would be a once in a lifetime hunt. I have a friend who killed a big brown bear about a year and a half ago. He researched all alternatives and found that it was much easier and cheaper to hunt them in Russia than Alaska.

I didn't ask for details and was a little surprised since it was not something I would have considered. But if I were wanting to hunt a big brown bear I'd explore that possibility.

reoader22 · February 16, 2012, 08:44 PM

i wasnt saying that it was a good idea to use a 243 for grizz but i was trying to say that it could be done. back in the day people only had 30-30s and i wonder how manny grizzlys were killed with them? personally i would use a 7mm rem mag or a 338 win but in a pinch the gun u have in your hand will work and i wasnt saying that a 243 and a 50 bmg are an equil sorry for grammer

grubbylabs · February 16, 2012, 10:08 PM

Silly gun hunters, when I go, I am taking my bow and arrow

I just watched the guy on Easton bow hunting T.V take his second brown with a re curve. While I am not that brave I would take my compound bow without hesitation.

dalegribble · February 16, 2012, 10:28 PM

if i was lucky enough to be heading to ak for a big bear i suppose i would be lucky enough to be packing a new 338 mag winchester. as it stands now i would have to make my 7mm rem mag and 45/70 marlin do. i think they would do. wasn't it jack o'conner that used a 270 for everything from chipmonks to a t-rex all around the world?

Alaska444 · February 17, 2012, 01:51 AM

One of my friends in Idaho knew of Jack O'Conner through his father who hunted with Jack. Interestingly, my friend hunts with a .270 for elk but even he would want more gun going up against grizzly for sure. The .270 is quite similar in ballistics to the 30-06 which many consider the minimum for bear.

It should be noted that professional hunters promoted the .357 early on by killing a whole bunch of grizzlies. In the hands of an expert, you can kill a grizzly with just about anything.

That still doesn't answer the questions of putting the animal down humanely, avoiding a prolonged tracking of a wounded bear as mentioned above, and having the power to stop a bear that turns and charges the hunter after the first shot. That limits the discussion to big bore lever action rifles for quick follow up shots, or the high powered bolt action rifles. 30-06 is the foundation, but most guides will want to start with .338 magnum.

The terrain comes into play on how long the client will be shooting. Many areas in Alaska are wide open, Tundra where you will need the range of .338 or other bolt actions. In other areas, the brush is so thick that the action will be up and close. In that situation, the 45-70 lever action prevails with proper hot loads.

The answer to what is the right rifle must start with: it depends.

jgcoastie · February 17, 2012, 08:32 AM

^ +110%

RevGeo · February 17, 2012, 08:12 PM

Like Alaska444 I live in N. Idaho which is grizzly country. Not many of them, but one is enough if it's suddenly standing in front of you. I've never seen one in the woods around here. When I am hunting for deer, elk, moose or black bear I just carry the rifle I always hunt with - 30-40AI. If I run into a truculant grizzly that rifle is what I'm gonna have to shoot because it's what I have.

As far as hunting them in Alaska or Canada, if it's a guided hunt the rifle will be one of the least expensive elements of the trip. If it was me and I was purposefully heading out to shoot a grizzly bear (which I would not) I would buy, rent or borrow the biggest, baddest rifle I could find. Recoil from a .460 Weatherby is a sweet kiss compared to what one of them big suckers can do to you. I'd sight it in at a bench with sissy bags against my shoulder. I've never shot a grizzly, but I'll bet if you do the recoil or muzzle blast is the last thing you will be thinking about.
Grizzlies can be killed with a sharp stick, but I'd have to be really hungry to give that a try. And then I'd send the young guys out to do it.
Having said all that, my really good buddy Wayne - a Canadian - killed his last grizzly with a 6mm Rem. One shot.

George

aaalaska · February 18, 2012, 04:26 AM

While these threads are entertaining , let's face it, by the time the metallic cartridge became common old griz had pretty well gone the way of the do-do bird in the lower 48.And no not all those old boys made it home, but a few don't today either. When I go out the door I carry what I carry,don't give it all that much thought, just do a lot of practice and hope for the best if TSHTF.Yes there are bears here ,never saw one n the yard but did see tracks out back two years ago.Next door neighbor shot one DLP two years ago. and one of the guys I know shot a 9'8" within a mile of the house a few years back.Last year a griz chased a moose down the next road in the area.about a mile away. Like I said I carry what I want to for the day cause any gun out there will do the job , and no gun out there will do the job.If you think your going to shut one down on the spot, well maybe, but I'd say the odds aint in your favor.I'd much rather have a gun I'm comfortable with and confident in than any wiz bang mag. Yes I carry mag's and a GG's and a lot of other guns but I shot those guns ,a lot,cause you don't have time to think if it all goes bad ,all you have is instinct an muscle memory.
When one of our party had to shoot a sow on Kodiak a few years back, we went to skin it out for F&G, we found all three shoots he fired, first one hit the bear, knocked it down, but it got back up, second and third shots were found in trees from 4 to 6 feet from any chance of hitting the bear. Lucky for him the first shot was enough to turn the bear and she had no more interest in seeing him out of the alders. The next door neighbor also hit the bear with the first of multiple shots, the only one that hit. But it turned the bear and it ran off. By the way both of those bears were shot at ranges less than 30 ft. One with a 300 win mag, and the other with a 7mm mag. So your going to grizz country an wondering what gun, my .02 carry what you shoot well ,practice a lot. Use hard bullets that will go deep, and pray today isn't your day.

4sixteen · February 18, 2012, 11:30 AM

Go with the American classic gold standard of dangerous game rifles, the .458 Win. mag. That big bad bear is going down. Plenty of penetration and shock.

Art Eatman · February 18, 2012, 04:40 PM

Hunting the big bears is a relatively controlled situation. The main idea is to see the bear before it sees the hunter. A skilled shooter can then make a good hit and kill the bear--and such as the .270, '06, 7 Mag and 300 Win Mag have all worked well in those situations. The .338 and 375 H&H, however, are preferred by many.

Stopping is a whole 'nother can of worms. There, it seems that for a reliable stop, the .338 or .375 H&H might be called starting points for power.

I'm no BTDT, but that's the gist of my reading, these last sixty or so years...

samsmix · February 19, 2012, 11:01 PM

As one who also hunts with a traditional muzzel loader, I will say "no" to your
.54 cal round ball. Even in flintlock days the mini-ball was in use. You need penetration with a capital P. A big, heavy, long for caliber bullet is how to do that.

I would also say "no" to your flintlock. Alaska it notoriously wet. I would use a caplock, a double if possible, and I would DEFINATLY replace ther #11 nipples with musket cap nipples. Far, FAR more reliable ignition. Cabelas markets a .72 cal. double barrel, and that is what I would prefer, but a .54 will do. I would use a smokeless BP substitute. Pyrodex is NOT smokeless. I would carry a sidearm in a large magnum caliber.

On that subject, a .357/180 from a 6" barrel will out penetrate a .44mag/240, but .454 and up would be better IF you can shoot such things well.

jgcoastie · February 20, 2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsmix

I would use a smokeless BP substitute. Pyrodex is NOT smokeless.

I yield to your experience. My apologies, it was my understanding that Pyrodex was smokeless, I stand corrected.

Thanks for the info.

February 15, 2012, 03:03 PM	#30
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	personally if you are comfortable with a muzzleloader... if your guide will allow it... I say go for it... I would think it a great time to buy one of those side by side double rifles in 50 / 54 caliber... as far as the smoke, I'm sure the guide can position himself in a good position, if he's had other smoke pole shooters with him before... I'm sure there will be those that poo poo the muzzleloader, but personally I'd rather have one of those, than try it with a bow, & lord knows there are plenty of those "crazy" bow hunters out there... as far as loads... I'd choose something more sane, & or at the least, as hot a load as you can still get good accuracy, & consistant velocity... BTW... I also love the 45-70, & in a guide gun think it would make a formidable weapon... I have some hot lead gas check handloads I picked up the recipe from a magazine that the author ( some famous guy ) used to shoot cape buffalo in Africa... his guide was not happy, when the bullet shot through the big bull that the author was shooting, & also killed a cow standing behind the intended target... with loads like that, safe, likely only in the Marlins, I'd say it's got plenty of penitration for big bears... BTW #2... if you are shooting these beastly kind of loads ( my rifle is ported & has a good recoil pad, with a leather butt cuff with some extra cartridges )... make sure they feed 100%, that you can handle shooting them, & accurately, & that the sights can handle the recoil... mine sheared the screws off the stock sights after 5 shots when sighting in these hot loads... that has since been fixed, & the rifle is now "bear proof" __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; February 15, 2012 at 03:12 PM.

February 16, 2012, 03:55 AM	#35
reoader22 Member Join Date: February 16, 2012 Posts: 28	shot placement shot placement shot placement..... u can kill any northamerican big game animal with just about any caliber out thre, ITS ALL ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT. farmers for years have killed thousands of cows with One shot kills wi a 22 rimfire not saying it would bea smart thing to go after a grizzly bear with a 22 but it can be done there was an old indian woman in the town where i live in bc that killed a grizzley bear with a 22. I have a friend that shoots a 338 win mag at deer lol sometimes he hits one and sometimes tehy die and sometimes they dont he shot a deer lat year with his cannon (338 win mag) last year in the hind quarters the deer was never found it probobly died but if he had hit it in the lungs it would hve died faster. a grizzlys head beats at a minimun one time per second dont quote me on that but that is what i understand, now if u put a .243 calbullet or a .50 cal bullet through that heart what do u think is gonna happen? use a gun that is comfortable for you to shoot accuratly with a bullet that will penotrate and not explade on impact. personally i love horandy sst bullets. Last edited by reoader22; February 16, 2012 at 08:38 PM.

February 16, 2012, 12:11 PM	#36
jgcoastie Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 2,118	reoader22 Proper grammar, grammar, grammar.... It goes a long way towards getting your point across... Though from what I can gather from your post, (I think) you're saying that a .243 Win and a .50 BMG are equally deadly on bears. If we're talking deer or something similar, even smaller black bears, I would tend to agree with you. However, your assumption is based on another unlikely assumption that a .243 Win has the power/energy and toughness to reach the heart of a big bear. It does not, at least not reliably. And you'd never find a guide that would allow you to hunt with a .243 Win for Kodiak Coastal Brownies. And as far as the old lady in your village taking on a bear with a .22lr. Well, if true, then I'll say this... A couple of weeks ago, there was a guy in this area that tried to win a gunfight with his 9mm v.s. a S.W.A.T team... Neither people in these two stories seem to be of much measurable intelligence... __________________ "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.

February 16, 2012, 08:44 PM	#40
reoader22 Member Join Date: February 16, 2012 Posts: 28	i wasnt saying that it was a good idea to use a 243 for grizz but i was trying to say that it could be done. back in the day people only had 30-30s and i wonder how manny grizzlys were killed with them? personally i would use a 7mm rem mag or a 338 win but in a pinch the gun u have in your hand will work and i wasnt saying that a 243 and a 50 bmg are an equil sorry for grammer Last edited by reoader22; February 16, 2012 at 08:51 PM.

February 16, 2012, 10:08 PM	#41
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	Silly gun hunters, when I go, I am taking my bow and arrow I just watched the guy on Easton bow hunting T.V take his second brown with a re curve. While I am not that brave I would take my compound bow without hesitation. __________________ * (Swinging club) Whack! whack! whack! * Nope, the old nag's still dead . (Capt Charlie)

February 15, 2012, 05:35 AM	#26
NWCP Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2006 Posts: 1,903	Most everything I've read regarding dangerous game in Alaska the general consensus was a .338 WinMag at a minimum for the big bears. I have a .338 WinMag in a BAR and that's what I bought it for years ago. Never did get around to bear hunting with it though. I suppose the 300 WM would perform well enough, but I'd rather err on the side of prudence rather than use a round thinking as long as the animal isn't charging me and presents a nice broadside shot I should be OK. Recoil wise the .338 is about the most I can handle without losing a retina or all of my fillings. At 225, or 250 grains the .338 packs a lot of energy for quite some distance while still being quite accurate. From 50 to 300 yards it's like a running into a brick wall and many bear are taken at close ranges. Mine has a medium power wide view scope mounted on it with a limb saver pad. Even with the recoil absorbing semi auto action it is still an attention getter when sighting in each year before hunting season. I know some guys that the recoil over a day of shooting doesn't seem to bother much. Between the cost of the ammo and the recoil of the rifle I'm good long enough to verify my scope is still on the money and everything is functioning well.

February 15, 2012, 02:25 PM	#27
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	A lot of well reasoned responses here to my question. And many of them are the voices of first hand experience. I learned a lot. When/if I ever get to go on that dream bucket list hunt, y'all have helped me. Now, I'll add to the bucket wish question. And, I hope the mods don't bounce this. My real shooting passion is with *traditional* style muzzle loading rifles. Now, if any of you have experience with those, what would you say to using a patched round ball in a .54 cal. flintlock rifle with stout black powder charges? By stout I mean in the 120 to 200 gr. range. (normal charges would be about 70 to 100 gr.) Of course, this on a big coastal brown bear. Edit: Meant to say "Thank Y'all" for the responses. Thankee.

February 15, 2012, 05:04 PM	#31
roklok Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2008 Location: Fort Yukon, Alaska Posts: 735	The extra qualifications for Bow and Muzzleloader only apply for special hunts restricted to those weapons. No restrictions if using a Muzzleloader on a hunt where a rifle would be legal. I have a goal of killing a grizzly with a flintlock and PRB. I like my .54s, but for a grizzly I will use my .60 , just more weight and a bigger hole. I may give it a try this fall.

February 16, 2012, 12:41 AM	#34
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	Good points JG, and yes, we do always end up on the bear threads at TFL. Me, I try to avoid bears out in the woods but want to be prepared in the rare event of one of them finding me up in Idaho. Ammo availability is an important issue and the 45-70 with proper loads certainly has the ability to make a bad day for the bear. I would expect to have seen more African caliber rifles especially in the hunting parties. Many do take .375 H&H which is considered African caliber. I never went to Kodiak when I was a kid up in Alaska so I can't comment on the amount of brush, but I don't think of that sort of scenario chasing a bear through thick brush as my sort of idea of fun. No thanks, especially for 20k at a pop.

February 16, 2012, 07:46 PM	#37
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	As someone who has been there and done that I do value your opinion. I'm certain it carries more weight than a Gerogia boy who will probably never go there. But you are not the only person who has BTDT in Alaska and I'm basing my opinions on the collective information shared to me by many others who have actually hunted the big bears. You are one of the few I've run across who have actually hunted big bears that cares for the 45-70. Based on information I've gathered you can choose from a 30-06, 300 or 7mm mag, 45-70, 444, 35 Whelen, 338-06, or even 338 Win mag. Pick the best bullets for each chambering and expect the exact same results. In other words they all work most of the time. If you make a poor shot and things go bad none do any better job of stopping a charge than the others. I've been advised that if that happens something in the order of a 375 mag or up is the only thing that seems to matter. I'd choose a heavy loaded '06 for a several reasons. #1, since nothing with more recoil seems to be any better, why not choose the one with the least recoil. #2, since multiple shots could be necessary I feel the 5+1 mag capacity more than offsets the extra velocity of the 3+1 mag capacity of a magnum gun. The lower recoil helps with faster repeat shots as well. #3, nothing is as time tested. I'd wager money that in the last 100 years a 30-06 has accounted for more grizzly than any other chambering. Maybe more than all others combined. It just works, and has been proven to work. Not so with a 45-70. While it has been around longer, it was conceived as a military round and rarely used for hunting. It was only in military service for a few years and in it's black powder form was considered too light for most large western game such as grizzly, and bison. From the 1890's to the 1970's(almost 80 years) it was a dormant, almost dead chambering. It has only been within the last few years that the really hot loadings have been available and used on really large game. While I think it would work just fine, there simply isn't nearly that many large animals ever taken with the round to prove it is superior.

February 16, 2012, 07:48 PM	#38
warbirdlover Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2009 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 2,324	How often in hunting situations are you in a situation guaranteeing perfect shot placement? And big animals can take alot of abuse, no matter how good the shot placement. I can't imagine an experienced bear guide allowing his clients to use pee shooters and increasing the danger since they really don't know how accurately these clients can shoot under stress.

February 16, 2012, 07:52 PM	#39
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	One other note to someone considering a brown bear hunt. Some have posted about how hard and expensive it is and that it would be a once in a lifetime hunt. I have a friend who killed a big brown bear about a year and a half ago. He researched all alternatives and found that it was much easier and cheaper to hunt them in Russia than Alaska. I didn't ask for details and was a little surprised since it was not something I would have considered. But if I were wanting to hunt a big brown bear I'd explore that possibility.

February 16, 2012, 10:28 PM	#42
dalegribble Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2007 Posts: 861	if i was lucky enough to be heading to ak for a big bear i suppose i would be lucky enough to be packing a new 338 mag winchester. as it stands now i would have to make my 7mm rem mag and 45/70 marlin do. i think they would do. wasn't it jack o'conner that used a 270 for everything from chipmonks to a t-rex all around the world? __________________ Waltzes with woofs

February 17, 2012, 01:51 AM	#43
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	One of my friends in Idaho knew of Jack O'Conner through his father who hunted with Jack. Interestingly, my friend hunts with a .270 for elk but even he would want more gun going up against grizzly for sure. The .270 is quite similar in ballistics to the 30-06 which many consider the minimum for bear. It should be noted that professional hunters promoted the .357 early on by killing a whole bunch of grizzlies. In the hands of an expert, you can kill a grizzly with just about anything. That still doesn't answer the questions of putting the animal down humanely, avoiding a prolonged tracking of a wounded bear as mentioned above, and having the power to stop a bear that turns and charges the hunter after the first shot. That limits the discussion to big bore lever action rifles for quick follow up shots, or the high powered bolt action rifles. 30-06 is the foundation, but most guides will want to start with .338 magnum. The terrain comes into play on how long the client will be shooting. Many areas in Alaska are wide open, Tundra where you will need the range of .338 or other bolt actions. In other areas, the brush is so thick that the action will be up and close. In that situation, the 45-70 lever action prevails with proper hot loads. The answer to what is the right rifle must start with: it depends.

February 17, 2012, 08:32 AM	#44
jgcoastie Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 2,118	^ +110% __________________ "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.

February 17, 2012, 08:12 PM	#45
RevGeo Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2011 Location: North Idaho Posts: 161	Like Alaska444 I live in N. Idaho which is grizzly country. Not many of them, but one is enough if it's suddenly standing in front of you. I've never seen one in the woods around here. When I am hunting for deer, elk, moose or black bear I just carry the rifle I always hunt with - 30-40AI. If I run into a truculant grizzly that rifle is what I'm gonna have to shoot because it's what I have. As far as hunting them in Alaska or Canada, if it's a guided hunt the rifle will be one of the least expensive elements of the trip. If it was me and I was purposefully heading out to shoot a grizzly bear (which I would not) I would buy, rent or borrow the biggest, baddest rifle I could find. Recoil from a .460 Weatherby is a sweet kiss compared to what one of them big suckers can do to you. I'd sight it in at a bench with sissy bags against my shoulder. I've never shot a grizzly, but I'll bet if you do the recoil or muzzle blast is the last thing you will be thinking about. Grizzlies can be killed with a sharp stick, but I'd have to be really hungry to give that a try. And then I'd send the young guys out to do it. Having said all that, my really good buddy Wayne - a Canadian - killed his last grizzly with a 6mm Rem. One shot. George

February 18, 2012, 04:26 AM	#46
aaalaska Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2007 Location: Palmer Ak Posts: 319	While these threads are entertaining , let's face it, by the time the metallic cartridge became common old griz had pretty well gone the way of the do-do bird in the lower 48.And no not all those old boys made it home, but a few don't today either. When I go out the door I carry what I carry,don't give it all that much thought, just do a lot of practice and hope for the best if TSHTF.Yes there are bears here ,never saw one n the yard but did see tracks out back two years ago.Next door neighbor shot one DLP two years ago. and one of the guys I know shot a 9'8" within a mile of the house a few years back.Last year a griz chased a moose down the next road in the area.about a mile away. Like I said I carry what I want to for the day cause any gun out there will do the job , and no gun out there will do the job.If you think your going to shut one down on the spot, well maybe, but I'd say the odds aint in your favor.I'd much rather have a gun I'm comfortable with and confident in than any wiz bang mag. Yes I carry mag's and a GG's and a lot of other guns but I shot those guns ,a lot,cause you don't have time to think if it all goes bad ,all you have is instinct an muscle memory. When one of our party had to shoot a sow on Kodiak a few years back, we went to skin it out for F&G, we found all three shoots he fired, first one hit the bear, knocked it down, but it got back up, second and third shots were found in trees from 4 to 6 feet from any chance of hitting the bear. Lucky for him the first shot was enough to turn the bear and she had no more interest in seeing him out of the alders. The next door neighbor also hit the bear with the first of multiple shots, the only one that hit. But it turned the bear and it ran off. By the way both of those bears were shot at ranges less than 30 ft. One with a 300 win mag, and the other with a 7mm mag. So your going to grizz country an wondering what gun, my .02 carry what you shoot well ,practice a lot. Use hard bullets that will go deep, and pray today isn't your day.

February 18, 2012, 11:30 AM	#47
4sixteen Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Location: Up North Posts: 145	Go with the American classic gold standard of dangerous game rifles, the .458 Win. mag. That big bad bear is going down. Plenty of penetration and shock.

February 18, 2012, 04:40 PM	#48
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Hunting the big bears is a relatively controlled situation. The main idea is to see the bear before it sees the hunter. A skilled shooter can then make a good hit and kill the bear--and such as the .270, '06, 7 Mag and 300 Win Mag have all worked well in those situations. The .338 and 375 H&H, however, are preferred by many. Stopping is a whole 'nother can of worms. There, it seems that for a reliable stop, the .338 or .375 H&H might be called starting points for power. I'm no BTDT, but that's the gist of my reading, these last sixty or so years...

February 19, 2012, 11:01 PM	#49
samsmix Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2006 Location: Montana (Montucky?) Posts: 1,273	As one who also hunts with a traditional muzzel loader, I will say "no" to your .54 cal round ball. Even in flintlock days the mini-ball was in use. You need penetration with a capital P. A big, heavy, long for caliber bullet is how to do that. I would also say "no" to your flintlock. Alaska it notoriously wet. I would use a caplock, a double if possible, and I would DEFINATLY replace ther #11 nipples with musket cap nipples. Far, FAR more reliable ignition. Cabelas markets a .72 cal. double barrel, and that is what I would prefer, but a .54 will do. I would use a smokeless BP substitute. Pyrodex is NOT smokeless. I would carry a sidearm in a large magnum caliber. On that subject, a .357/180 from a 6" barrel will out penetrate a .44mag/240, but .454 and up would be better IF you can shoot such things well. __________________ You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life. IF we're not supposed to eat animals, howcome God made 'em outta meat?