Lead/Linotype Difference?

zanthope · May 21, 2002, 05:51 PM

Can I use the linotype bullet reloading data in the Lyman's guide for regular Phoenix lead .38's?

**Mike Irwin** · May 21, 2002, 07:55 PM

Start at the low end of the spectrum and slowly work your way up.

There's no telling whether the bullets are harder or softer than standard lino.

Pampers · May 22, 2002, 07:44 AM

You're wasting money. Lin-o-Type is quite hard and makes great RIFLE bullets. Using it for pistol bullets is a waste of expensive lead.

I'd recommend reclaimed wheel weights which have been dropped into a bucket of cold water.

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

zanthope · May 22, 2002, 07:55 AM

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Pampers:

I'm not melting/molding my own lead, yet. I saw these 800 fps load data for linotype bullets in the Lyman Reloading Manual and wondered how much difference there is between regular lead and linotype lead, and if the load data would apply.

If linotype is harder, then isn't that a lot more bore friction, which alters pressure and velocity and, and, and...????

Is linotype like dinosaur bones anymore? Isn't everything in the whole world digital?

Steve Smith · May 22, 2002, 09:30 AM

Ahh! You're using Linotype for 800 fps loads? You're kidding me!

**Mike Irwin** · May 22, 2002, 10:40 AM

Yeah, lino is going the way of the dinosaur, alright. Nowdays you have to make it yourself.

G&A (I think) had an article some years ago about producing rather large lots of lino metal (several hundred pounds). Producing it in large lots allows for better control and mixing of the ingredients, apparently.

The author actually used a wood-fired lino batching furnace that he scrounged from a newspaper.

Occasionally you'll still find a small-town weekly that's printing with hot type.

I was in Maine for Christmas about 15 years ago, and the town of Brewer (I think it was Brewer) had a small weekly that was REALLY a throwback. Broadsheet size, 8 column format, hot type printed. It was neat.

Pampers · May 22, 2002, 12:10 PM

Well, I suppose so. More than softer lead anyway, but MUCH LESS than jacketed bullets under almost all conditions. Once leas bullets are swedged down in the throat/forging cone, there's much less drag in the bore. That's why it's nearly impossable to wear out a bore using lead bullets.

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

zanthope · May 22, 2002, 10:07 PM

So, back to my original question: can I use the linotype data that's in the Lyman book for 148 gr Phoenix lead dewc's?

I'm understanding that there's not much, if any difference between the two.

What's bullet lead made from? (Duh) Is it straight lead, or an alloy?

jjmorgan64 · May 22, 2002, 10:24 PM

The lead will give you leading problems at the top end, I would stick with their starting loads for the 146 gr #358212

As always double check all load data.

444 · May 22, 2002, 10:40 PM

When we are talking about lead bullets in modern firearms we are not talking about pure lead, we are talking about a lead alloy. What alloy you use depends on what you are going to do with the bullet, mainly how fast are you going to push it. Linotype contains the following alloy: 86% Lead, 3% Tin, 11% Antimony and has a Brinell hardness number of 22. A common alloy for casting handgun bullets is commonly referred to as a #2 alloy. It consists of 90% Lead, 5% Tin, 5% Antimony, and has a Brinell hardness number of 15. As you can see, the #2 alloy is much softer than linotype. This is not bad. You don't need to shoot super hard bullets in a handgun. To answer your original question, in a handgun, I would use the loading data you have. If you notice a significant amount of leading, or you have very poor accuracy, you have a problem. Excessive leading can be caused by one or more of several issues. Bullet size, bullet lube, and bullet hardness being three of them. These same factors also effect accuracy. If you are buying commercially cast bullets, there probably isn't much you can do about any of them. I have shot truckloads of commercially cast bullets and was well satisfied. In some of my guns I did experience leading. I forked over $12 and bought a Lewis Lead Remover from Brownells which removes the leading in one pass through the bore.

FYI, some futher information:
Wheelweights are 95% Lead, .5% Tin, 4% Antimony and have a Brinell hardness number of 9.
Pure Lead is obviously 100% Lead and has a hardness number of 5.

Jim Watson · May 23, 2002, 08:12 AM

zan,

I don't know about the Phoenix brand, but most commercial cast bullets are 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2% tin. All the old high-tin alloys are too expensive and not hard enough for general purpose loading. You need that 2% tin to get the lead to flow well and the mold to fill out, but antimony is harder and cheaper.

What Lyman manual are you using that uses linotype bullets? All of mine (44, 47, P&R, Cast Bullet) show loads for their old No 2 alloy, 90-5-5.

Anyhow, the data is close enough. There is no reason to load wadcutters to maximum pressure and velocity and any small difference will not be noticeable.

C.R.Sam · May 23, 2002, 08:23 PM

In my experience...
Nature of the lubricant has more effect on the leading situation than the bullet alloy.

Sam

zanthope · May 23, 2002, 10:24 PM

Thanks again for the good replies, guys. I always learn a lot from this board.

Jim Watson: Lyman 47th (New Edition) has 8 linotype loads on pages 386, 387, 388. I think I'm going to treat them just as though they were lead.

These flat wad cutters seem to have tremendous destructive potential when they're loaded up to 800 fps and beyond. In a highly unscientific testing of +P wadcutters out of my S & W M-19 .357, I shot up some scrap lumber and noticed lots of internal tumbling and huge exit holes that translate well into a (possible) short range, relatively safe backup SD carry round to use in my new .38 Charter Arms Undercover. Thus, all this questioning and testing.

I've got 5 129 gr +P HydraShoks (not factory recommended) in the cylinder, and I've discovered that five hot, short wadcutters in a speedloader disappear nicely into a pants pocket. Five wadcutters without the speedloader fit into the little change pocket in blue jeans. Now, I'm looking for the right recipe.

I could probably just go buy some, but what fun is that?

May 21, 2002, 05:51 PM	#1
zanthope Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 258	Lead/Linotype Difference? Can I use the linotype bullet reloading data in the Lyman's guide for regular Phoenix lead .38's? __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then it gets worse.

May 22, 2002, 07:55 AM	#4
zanthope Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 258	Thanks for the replies, guys. Pampers: I'm not melting/molding my own lead, yet. I saw these 800 fps load data for linotype bullets in the Lyman Reloading Manual and wondered how much difference there is between regular lead and linotype lead, and if the load data would apply. If linotype is harder, then isn't that a lot more bore friction, which alters pressure and velocity and, and, and...???? Is linotype like dinosaur bones anymore? Isn't everything in the whole world digital? __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then it gets worse.

May 22, 2002, 09:30 AM	#5
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Ahh! You're using Linotype for 800 fps loads? You're kidding me! __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

May 22, 2002, 10:40 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yeah, lino is going the way of the dinosaur, alright. Nowdays you have to make it yourself. G&A (I think) had an article some years ago about producing rather large lots of lino metal (several hundred pounds). Producing it in large lots allows for better control and mixing of the ingredients, apparently. The author actually used a wood-fired lino batching furnace that he scrounged from a newspaper. Occasionally you'll still find a small-town weekly that's printing with hot type. I was in Maine for Christmas about 15 years ago, and the town of Brewer (I think it was Brewer) had a small weekly that was REALLY a throwback. Broadsheet size, 8 column format, hot type printed. It was neat. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 22, 2002, 12:10 PM	#7
Pampers Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Location: In the Lost State of Franklin Posts: 482	Bore friction? Well, I suppose so. More than softer lead anyway, but MUCH LESS than jacketed bullets under almost all conditions. Once leas bullets are swedged down in the throat/forging cone, there's much less drag in the bore. That's why it's nearly impossable to wear out a bore using lead bullets. Yr. Obt. Svnt. __________________ Your Most Humble & Obedient Servant Fred J. Drumheller NRA Life NRA Golden Eagle

May 21, 2002, 07:55 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Start at the low end of the spectrum and slowly work your way up. There's no telling whether the bullets are harder or softer than standard lino. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 22, 2002, 07:44 AM	#3
Pampers Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Location: In the Lost State of Franklin Posts: 482	You can, BUT! You're wasting money. Lin-o-Type is quite hard and makes great RIFLE bullets. Using it for pistol bullets is a waste of expensive lead. I'd recommend reclaimed wheel weights which have been dropped into a bucket of cold water. Yr. Obt. Svnt. __________________ Your Most Humble & Obedient Servant Fred J. Drumheller NRA Life NRA Golden Eagle

May 22, 2002, 10:07 PM	#8
zanthope Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 258	So, back to my original question: can I use the linotype data that's in the Lyman book for 148 gr Phoenix lead dewc's? I'm understanding that there's not much, if any difference between the two. What's bullet lead made from? (Duh) Is it straight lead, or an alloy? __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then it gets worse.

May 22, 2002, 10:24 PM	#9
jjmorgan64 Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2001 Posts: 519	sure, kind of The lead will give you leading problems at the top end, I would stick with their starting loads for the 146 gr #358212 As always double check all load data. __________________ The Forty-Four spoke and it sent lead and smoke And seventeen inches of flame. -Marty Robbins JM

May 22, 2002, 10:40 PM	#10
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	When we are talking about lead bullets in modern firearms we are not talking about pure lead, we are talking about a lead alloy. What alloy you use depends on what you are going to do with the bullet, mainly how fast are you going to push it. Linotype contains the following alloy: 86% Lead, 3% Tin, 11% Antimony and has a Brinell hardness number of 22. A common alloy for casting handgun bullets is commonly referred to as a #2 alloy. It consists of 90% Lead, 5% Tin, 5% Antimony, and has a Brinell hardness number of 15. As you can see, the #2 alloy is much softer than linotype. This is not bad. You don't need to shoot super hard bullets in a handgun. To answer your original question, in a handgun, I would use the loading data you have. If you notice a significant amount of leading, or you have very poor accuracy, you have a problem. Excessive leading can be caused by one or more of several issues. Bullet size, bullet lube, and bullet hardness being three of them. These same factors also effect accuracy. If you are buying commercially cast bullets, there probably isn't much you can do about any of them. I have shot truckloads of commercially cast bullets and was well satisfied. In some of my guns I did experience leading. I forked over $12 and bought a Lewis Lead Remover from Brownells which removes the leading in one pass through the bore. FYI, some futher information: Wheelweights are 95% Lead, .5% Tin, 4% Antimony and have a Brinell hardness number of 9. Pure Lead is obviously 100% Lead and has a hardness number of 5. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

May 23, 2002, 08:12 AM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	zan, I don't know about the Phoenix brand, but most commercial cast bullets are 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2% tin. All the old high-tin alloys are too expensive and not hard enough for general purpose loading. You need that 2% tin to get the lead to flow well and the mold to fill out, but antimony is harder and cheaper. What Lyman manual are you using that uses linotype bullets? All of mine (44, 47, P&R, Cast Bullet) show loads for their old No 2 alloy, 90-5-5. Anyhow, the data is close enough. There is no reason to load wadcutters to maximum pressure and velocity and any small difference will not be noticeable.

May 23, 2002, 08:23 PM	#12
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	In my experience... Nature of the lubricant has more effect on the leading situation than the bullet alloy. Sam

May 23, 2002, 10:24 PM	#13
zanthope Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 258	Thanks again for the good replies, guys. I always learn a lot from this board. Jim Watson: Lyman 47th (New Edition) has 8 linotype loads on pages 386, 387, 388. I think I'm going to treat them just as though they were lead. These flat wad cutters seem to have tremendous destructive potential when they're loaded up to 800 fps and beyond. In a highly unscientific testing of +P wadcutters out of my S & W M-19 .357, I shot up some scrap lumber and noticed lots of internal tumbling and huge exit holes that translate well into a (possible) short range, relatively safe backup SD carry round to use in my new .38 Charter Arms Undercover. Thus, all this questioning and testing. I've got 5 129 gr +P HydraShoks (not factory recommended) in the cylinder, and I've discovered that five hot, short wadcutters in a speedloader disappear nicely into a pants pocket. Five wadcutters without the speedloader fit into the little change pocket in blue jeans. Now, I'm looking for the right recipe. I could probably just go buy some, but what fun is that? __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then it gets worse.