The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > The Smithy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 18, 2015, 10:44 AM   #1
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,157
1911 Extractor tension

I have a new Springfield TRP Operator .45 that has started failing to extract completely and the next round feeds up and jams everything up.

I looked at the extractor with the slide off and a loaded round will shake off easily.

I have seen some videos of bending the extractor to get a little more tension on the extractor and my question is about how much force is required to move it.

Is that part very brittle? What I don't want is to apply too much force and snap it.

I gave it a pretty good push yesterday and things don't seem much improved.

Any tips?
__________________
Geetarman

Carpe Cerveza
geetarman is offline  
Old March 18, 2015, 11:54 AM   #2
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 8,508
The part is not, should not, be at all brittle.
The dimensional difference between no tension and way too much tension is small.
If you don't want to go to the expense of buying or making a special tool, you can adjust the extractor by putting it half-way in its tunnel, backwards, with the mid-span "dognut" lined-up with the opening in the rear of the slide.
With the front half of the extractor exposed, push on it in the direction you want to bend it. I've had to grab the slide with both hands, and use both thumbs on the extractor to apply enough force to bend it.
Some will advocate for extremely precise tension, such as "between 21 and 25 ounces of resistance", but I have found that 5" .45s are not especially sensitive to rim tension.
The test of "live round will droop from breechface/spent case is held firm against breechface" is usually plenty good.
I have had at least one instance of the extractor tunnel being slightly mislocated, so that the extractor had sufficient tension when aligned at 3:00 on the case rim, but the hook would have insufficient travel, before bottoming against the inside of the tunnel, and the case would fall off with any downward movement.
Bill Wilson's test involves aligning the extractor on a case at 3:00, then pushing straight down on the rim; the case should move downward 1/10" before it falls off. I use a narrow ruler with 1/100" inch graduations as the tool.
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.
RickB is offline  
Old March 18, 2015, 12:12 PM   #3
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,157
Thanks for the tip.

I have the Weigand tool on order and I already have a trigger pull gage.

I think I will wait for the tool to arrive and set the tension then. I spent over 40 years measuring things in the aircraft industry and not real comfortable just bending something without knowing how much I am bending it.

I think I changed it a bit but am going back to the range tomorrow with a couple of OEM magazines ( the one I used yesterday is a Wilson.) I am also going to take another batch of .45 from a different lot and see what shakes out.

The gun just started doing this and the ammo was a box out of a 1000 rounds I just bought. I will take another gun along and see if the issue might also be ammo/magazine related.

I did the extractor drop test on a Ruger SR1911 and it is not dropping the loaded round but it is not real secure either.

If another gun shows the same issue with the latest lot of .45, I might suspect the ammo is a little soft.

When I had the stoppage, I was into my first 50 rounds of the new lot and I had 3 in 50 rounds. The extractor was engaged in the rim and the round was all but out of the chamber. It did not go sideways at all. That and the magazine might point me in a slightly different direction. Normally I can tell the difference between a soft and hard lot of .45 and the ones I shot yesterday were definitely not barn burners. If the slide had moved less than .050 in. or so, it would have been kicked out. That is what tells me I might have the wrong problem identified and that is one of the reasons I don't want to go willy nilly bending the extractor. I do have a few 1911s with the internal extractors and sooner or later they will need to be looked at.

Thanks a bunch for the advice. . .I appreciate it.
__________________
Geetarman

Carpe Cerveza
geetarman is offline  
Old March 18, 2015, 03:41 PM   #4
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
One test for the correct amount of tension in the extractor is how much resistence there is when putting it in the slide.
If there's very little resistence when installing it, then the tension is probably not enough.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old March 18, 2015, 04:31 PM   #5
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,157
Mine just dropped right out. . . .sounds like the problem.
__________________
Geetarman

Carpe Cerveza
geetarman is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 07:18 AM   #6
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 8,508
Quote:
The extractor was engaged in the rim and the round was all but out of the chamber.
That does not sound like an extractor tension issue. Or, at least not one of too little tension. The problems you see with insufficient tension will be spent cases left in the chamber (the hook slipping past the rim), or erratic ejection due to the case not being held in place by the extractor for consistent contact with the ejector.
Some guns will even suffer from spent cases being returned to the magazine as the case slips from the extractor hook during extraction.
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.
RickB is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 07:36 AM   #7
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB
Or, at least not one of too little tension. The problems you see with insufficient tension will be spent cases left in the chamber (the hook slipping past the rim),



The extractor does not pull the spent casing from the chamber while firing semi-automatics , the spent casing pushes the slide rearward. The extractor keeps the casings in position while cycling.
__________________
Proud NRA Benefactor Member
Microgunner is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 07:41 AM   #8
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,157
Quote:
The extractor does not pull the spent casing from the chamber while firing semi-automatics , the spent casing pushes the slide rearward. The extractor keeps the
casings in position while cycling.
So are you thinking a lot of ammo on the low pressure side?

I hope to try some ammo I know to be pretty stiff as well as another gun with the same ammo and see if the problem resurfaces.
__________________
Geetarman

Carpe Cerveza
geetarman is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 07:46 AM   #9
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 3,324
^ Improper extractor tension can cause a 1911 to malfunction because it may not keep the spent casing in the optimal position in relation to the ejector.

I'd also look for a rough chamber.
__________________
Proud NRA Benefactor Member

Last edited by Microgunner; March 19, 2015 at 07:54 AM.
Microgunner is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 08:09 AM   #10
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,157
I would have thought a rough chamber would have reared its ugly head before now. The gun functioned flawlessly shooting S&B 230 gr. The gun probably has 300 rounds through it.

The last ammo that I bought was Magtech 230 gr and these failures were out of that lot.

I have a lot of Federal and will try some of that as soon as I can and see if the problem occurs again.

Also, I was using a Wilson Combat mag instead of the OEM mags with the metal follower. At this point it seems there are a couple of possibilities.

Mag related
Ammo related

I have a couple of other 1911s with full length extractors and I am going to try those with this batch of ammo.
__________________
Geetarman

Carpe Cerveza
geetarman is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 09:34 AM   #11
polyphemus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
Quote:
I have seen some videos of bending the extractor to get a little more tension on the extractor and my question is about how much force is required to move it.
Is that part very brittle? What I don't want is to apply too much force and snap it.
Quite a bit,it is made of spring steel and it does not bend easily and that's a good thing,if it did then it would not retain tension.You won't snap it.
I bend mine in a vise.
The infamous shake test doesn't tell you anything it's a waste of time but a dead giveaway that there's not enough as G.Willikers mentioned is when it does not resist pulling out.
The tension that works is not exact but anywhere between 1.5 and 1.75 Lb.
is fine for most pistols,you have a gauge coming and that should resolve any uncertainties regarding the setting.It is amazing how many malfunctions are
caused by the extractor tension when it is so easy to set it right.
polyphemus is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 09:46 AM   #12
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,823
You can also file a bit off the pad of the extractor. This allows the extractor to move in closer to the case, increasing its hold on the rim.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 09:56 AM   #13
polyphemus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
Quote:
The extractor does not pull the spent casing from the chamber while firing semi-automatics , the spent casing pushes the slide rearward. The extractor keeps the casings in position while cycling.
The spent case pushes the slide rearward in blowback operated auto pistols.
M1911 however are locked breech operated pistols.The case does push the slide
rearward but only for a short distance,then the barrel drops and stops while the
slide continues recoil travel of its own momentum and the extractor pulls the
case out of the stationary chamber.
polyphemus is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 03:51 PM   #14
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 8,508
And, if the hook is still on the rim of the partially-extracted case, insufficient tension is probably not the problem . . . did I already say that?
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.
RickB is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 04:30 PM   #15
polyphemus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
You have to eliminate extractor tension first,it is easily done and there's no harm in checking.Failing that you look elsewhere.
polyphemus is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 05:02 PM   #16
geetarman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,157
Well, I went back to the indoor range today and took the TRP and SR1911 and four different mags including the Wilson I used the other day.

Nary a failure of magazine or gun or ammo.

If I changed the tension on the TRP, I did not change it very much.

Both guns ran fine no failures of any kind.

One thing I did do was concentrate more on my grip. I am wondering if I have been getting careless?

Time will tell.

Thank you all for your tips. I really do appreciate them.
__________________
Geetarman

Carpe Cerveza
geetarman is offline  
Old March 19, 2015, 05:15 PM   #17
polyphemus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
Quote:
Nary a failure of magazine or gun or ammo
You can't argue with success.
polyphemus is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08923 seconds with 10 queries