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November 17, 2012, 10:27 PM | #1 |
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Training, Target Identification, Fratricide
Had lunch with my VFD EMT BIL who told me of an unsual call he went on and asked if I had heard about it. He responded to a gun range for a shooting incident where one of the participants was shot 4 times by another participant in an apparent "accidental" shooting. He and I then chatted about the differences in accidents and negligents and ended up calling it fratricide.
Apparently, the shooter in a class at TDSA south of Dallas started a drill in the shoot house in low light without a light, at twilight. The shoot house was not clear before the drill started and the shooter, apparently knowing there were targets in the house, shot all the bad guys including one that was a living instructor who wasn't a target!!! Here is all that I can dig up on this and I had not heard of it before speaking with my BIL. Does anyone else know more about the incident? The account from the local newspaper is reprinted here... http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...oting-academy/ You can go to the original source, but you have to pay to see the original story. http://weaponsman.com/?p=5741 So it was apparently instructor on instructor fratricide. The information in the articles includes a lot of detail my BIL did not have, but the details that he provided me were repeated in the articles.
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November 18, 2012, 05:53 PM | #2 |
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Wow. I'm glad the poor fellow wasn't killed.
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November 19, 2012, 07:25 PM | #3 |
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This could be a fine opportunity to discuss the serious issue of safety protocols for shoot-house and simulator training.
If folks want to see this as an opportunity to rant or make snide comments about this instructor, instructors in general, training or anything else, the thread will be closed.
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November 19, 2012, 07:33 PM | #4 |
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Having another person in a 360 live shoot house is a dangerous thing. I know another case where the SO, referee trailed behind the shooter. They got separated and the SO was shot. That installation moved to just the shooter with TV monitoring.
When targets come at you from all directions, you don't pause that much. Yes, you should and no shoots got shot but you don't REAL no-shoots. I've seen referees shot with sims and paint balls. Some were scary. One referee, even with safety equipment had a shot uncomfortably close to damaging an eye. Another, a referee, started the scenario and then for some reason stuck his leg into an open corridor - got a painful inner thigh for that. He was wearing an orange vest but out came his leg. BTW, in the training, you were to shoot any available opponent target - you didn't have to wait for a COM shot. The SO were supposed to stay out of the way. He didn't.
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November 19, 2012, 07:50 PM | #5 |
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Maybe living people could wear some sort of glow-stick or beacon while inside?
It does seem like there should be some way to differentiate between people and targets.
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November 20, 2012, 03:11 PM | #6 |
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The problem is a speed accuracy trade off. With people under stress and rushed, you will get accidents - even with folks glowing bright orange.
Such might reduce them, but startle responses when surprised by a man shaped target can override color cues. Having live folks in a 360 shoot environment and separate from the shooter is very dangerous.
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November 20, 2012, 03:28 PM | #7 |
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I have only been into one shoot house in all of my shooting days.
They had a system like the old mines to tell if a person was still in there. There was a peg board with numbered tags. If a tag was not hanging on the board then some one was inside. There were more than one for group training. Though the group training was for LEO's only.
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November 20, 2012, 04:06 PM | #8 | |
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No matter what the course of fire might be, the instructor should always require students to identify the target before engaging. That's an engrained safety response that's absolutely critical in the real world where you can't just tape the target and have a do-over if you get it wrong. If you're training for the real world, you should train for the real world -- the one where it's both tragic and expensive to shoot a no-shoot. Unfortunately, basic safety awareness increases times and reduces the brag factor, so it'll never fly at the high testosterone end of the market. pax |
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November 20, 2012, 04:19 PM | #9 | |
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Quote:
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November 21, 2012, 11:11 AM | #10 |
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You still have a head and exposed legs. I think I said I saw SOs shot in the leg and head with paint balls and sims.
Kathy's so correct! In one of the exercises, my partner in clearing a house came out saying - I shot my son. Said son was hiding in the shower. The shooter threw back the curtain and bang. On the other hand, a prof I know was an expert witness in a trial where a wife shot a big black shape coming towards her in the family bed. Oh, dear - it's hubby, coming back from the can. She claimed she couldn't tell. My friend did a high end vision test (now why did she consent to that?) - and guess what, she is now a guest of the state. I opine she thought she could get aware with that story. There was family history.
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November 21, 2012, 11:54 AM | #11 | |
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RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET If you can't positively identify your target, you're not supposed to fire. Period. Shadowy figures, glimpses, noises, etc aren't known targets and should not be fired upon.
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November 21, 2012, 12:13 PM | #12 |
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I remembered the video below. It it Clint Smith reviews the four rules. He talks about the dangers of not positively identifying ones target and also how the four rules were designed for fighting.
Clint Smith on Gun Safety Unclenick was recently telling me in another thread, on how Cooper thought we could never visually check our chambers often enough. Well, we can't go over the four rules too often either.
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November 21, 2012, 02:36 PM | #13 | |
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November 21, 2012, 06:21 PM | #14 | ||
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Here is Len Baxley's statement as he said it was told to him by Puzikas. http://soldiersystems.net/2012/11/14...ntal-shooting/ Quote:
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November 23, 2012, 11:37 AM | #15 |
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Sounds like a totally out of control situation to me.
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November 23, 2012, 12:21 PM | #16 |
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Come to think of it, this shooting really highlights the mindset difference between military and non-military training, and why it's so bad to conflate them.
A military person might very well be allowed to shoot anyone inside a given building, or at least anyone wearing a particular color or type of clothing. But non-military people do not have that advantage, and can come to a great deal of grief if they train as if they do. If you are an ordinary person who carries a firearm for self-defense in a civilian context, you should probably stick with schools that emphasize ordinary self-defense in a civilian context. pax |
November 25, 2012, 07:45 PM | #17 |
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The shoothouse training that I've participated in involved either instructors on catwalks, instructors in the stack or both. Armor (soft and hard dictated by the guns being trained with) was worn by anyone on the ground level.
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