Do you consider a chronograph a necessity for a reloader?

[snuffy]

Yup, I've been called a "natural" as well. I started shooting my brothers crossman pellet rifle when I was 8, that was 1954! It certainly wasn't super sonic, but it was very accurate.

Bullet spin is part and parcel of velocity and twist rate. As winnchester said, the spin does not degrade hardly at all during flight. Neither does gravity suddenly increase when a bullet slows to under the speed of sound.

What does happens is the shock wave ahead of the bullet goes away. This allows the bullet to actually come in contact with the atmosphere. Defects in the point of the bullet now come into play. if it's not perfectly centered, or marred in some way, THEN the sub-sonic inaccuracy could become part of the equation.

[fourdogs]

wncchester.....you better calm down before you have a heart attack. No point getting your blood pressure higher than it needs to be.

snuffy.....from one natural to another, you are right about the nose of the bullet riding on the shock wave. When the bullet finally comes in contact with the atmosphere a lot of drag happens. That drag combined with a decaying trajectory and decreasing spin rate ( remember the energy required for rotation ) are all factors why any bullet starts to destabilize when it crosses the sub threshold. Meplat defects will exacerbate destabilization, but any bullet will start to destabilize going subsonic. Look at long range trajectory tables. There is always a marked increase in bullet drop when it goes subsonic, which to me means the trajectory is rapidly decaying. If you shoot a bullet far enough it's going to destabilize near the end of it's flight path. By destabilizing I don't necessarily mean tumbling. I mostly mean a rapid decline in forward velocity, energy, and trajectory that starts at the sub threshold.

What we're discussing here isn't black and white. From what I'm remembering, bullet rotation stays fairly constant throughout the flight path, but if you shoot a minimally stabilized round, you will see the effects as the bullet passes 1000 fps more so than shooting an over stabilized round. An under rotated round can actually tumble at long range. In other words, if you are shooting a round with a twist that has just enough rotation to stabilize ( my preferred choice ) you must carefully weigh your options at long range. If you shoot an over stabilized ( over rotated ) round, you may have some margin for error down range, but over rotating tends to diminish accuracy IMO, and it tends to reduce velocity because of the excessive energy demand to over rotate the bullet.

Like I said, I haven't thought about these things in many years.

[wncchester]

"wncchester.....you better calm down before you have a heart attack. No point getting your blood pressure higher than it needs to be. .... Like I said, I haven't thought about these things in many years."

Thanks for the concern but my only risk is from falling outta this chair from laughing! It sounds like you haven't thought about these things in many years.

Have a GOOD, blissful week end!

[fourdogs]

Thanks for the concern but my only risk is from falling outta this chair from laughing! It sounds like you haven't thought about these things in many years.

I'm glad my musings have entertained you. I was once hardcore, but not anymore. I have nothing to prove to anyone, not even to myself.

It's true that a man with no formal knowledge can become a gifted shooter, and a man with formal knowledge can be a terrible shot, but combine a gifted shooter with knowledge.........and you have a formidable opponent.

It's clear much of this discussion has gone over your head.

Keep laughing, and for God's sake stay in that chair ....

Have a nice w/e (!)

[Nnobby45]

Bullet spin is part and parcel of velocity and twist rate. As winnchester said, the spin does not degrade hardly at all during flight. Neither does gravity suddenly increase when a bullet slows to under the speed of sound.

Winchester knows what they're talking about. My only question would apply to a bullet that's barely stabilized as it leaves the muzzle to the extent that even a little bit of decrease in spin could affect accuracy at longer range.

[PCJim]

No, a chrony is not really necessary for one to be a reloader. Gosh, think of all the reloaders you know and do not have a chrony. I've been at the bench for many a year without one, and am only now toying with the idea of getting one. My rounds are more accurate than I can claim to be, and that's good enough for me.

[HiBC]

It has something to do with being a reloader or a handloader.
The old blackpowder tong tools made reloads.A lee loader and a hammer and a dipper will make reloads.
I went many years without a powder measure.Dipper and scale,weighed or just dipped,depending on what I was doing.You don't have to have a powder measure to reload.You don't have to have calipers,or a mic.Heck,if you have a hand tool,you don't need a bench.
Mine is a Pro Chrono,about $120.It gets used every time a new load gets developed.My brother borrowed mine yesterday.
I have shot through it at 10 yds,then lasered 300,and put the chrono at 300 and shot through it.It was data for having a custom range engraved elevation knob made.Measured BC.
I wildcat some,and don't have published data.I use my chrono as an indicator (with other observations) of max load.
Oh,and somehing else I don't need.My Kowa spotting scope hat lets me see my bullet holes at 300 yds so I can post 1 target and sight in perfectly from the firing line,then make one trip to pick up my target.
But,doggone I am sure glad I made the wonderful decision to get them!!!!

[Nnobby45]

Long before I got a Chrono, I loaded for 22-250. I used a a 55 gr. Zipedo from Nosler. Some of you may even remember how far back that was, some of you weren't even born and some of your parents were teenagers.

Well, my load, which used IMR4064, was loaded to about 3600 fps, according to my manual. Now this load blew up squirrels, made a mess out of Rockchucks, killed coyotes instantly--even killed an Antelolpe with it.

Then I bought a chronograph.

I chrono'd my load and was horrified to discover that my lbullets were leaving the muzzle at 3250 fps. I'd reverted my powerful 22-250 back to .223 velocities and never knew the difference.

Neither did the critters.

Make up your own lesson. I can say that the chrono helped me work up loads that were more consistent with typical 22-250 velocities, though maybe on the light side at 3450 to 3500 fps. That's fast enough for me.

I think we've pretty much concluded that you can still handload without one, and that it's a valuable asset.

My rule in handloading, especially for rifle, is that I never exceed max. powder charge, nor max. velocity listed in the manual. Which ever I reach first, I stop there. If the manuals' bbl. length is different from mine, I allow 40fps for ea. inch.

We all have different systems and rules, but for mine, the Chrono is mandatory.

If I didn't have a Chrono, I use a different system and would stay well below max.

[blhseawa]

By way of background, I'm a engineer, with 30+ years of experience. And I find this thread amusing.

Not only do I use a chronograph, but (ESGs) electronic strain gauges, (EPGs) electronic pressure gauges, and (VHSDP) very high speed digital photography. I can't image why people wouldn't want this kind of data.

I'm hearing a lot of my minds made up, don't confuse me with facts. After all, temperature, humid, wind can all be ignored, no need to take those things into to count.

My grand daddy use to plow his fields with horses, still doesn't mean I have too! We all know science has no place in reloading, or should know it!

Who cares about temperature or pressure curves?, After all my load is the best, using my powder, my bullet and my gun.

I can understand comments saying you can not afford test equipment. But I absolutely do not understand comments claiming it is unnecessary.

I often wonder how many barrels met early graves out of ignorance?

I think I said more than enough.

[CraigC]

I never met an engineer that did not believe it made him an expert on anything technical. Nor have I met one that did not blow up like a bullfrog when he talked about being "an engineer".

Context son, context. If I find an accurate load in my sixguns that is at or below published maximums, I really don't give a rat's ass about temperature variations, standard deviations or extreme spreads. Fifty feet per second is meaningless. Sure, it would be nice to know but knowing doesn't change much. Same for the big game rifle. Especially considering the amount of data available that was developed in specific guns, not just test barrels.

Surely competition shooters, especially benchrest, and long range varmint shooters can benefit from the data attainable with a chronograph but that doesn't make them an absolute necessity for everyone. THAT depends solely on the individual handloader's needs and level of commitment to the art of handloading. You don't have to be an engineer to figure that out.

For me, it's simply a means to an end.

[lll Otto lll]

I used a chrono for years but I never saw any startling revelations from my loads. I guess thats because I stay within the limits of published powder data. I have enough confidence in my reloading techniques that I need not rely on a chronograph to produce safe loads.

[snuffy]

So what do those of you that say you don't need a chrono do when working with a new caliber that doesn't have any data available yet? Oh, I know you don't load for it, or you don't buy it.

Exactly the situation I was faced with when I bought my 300 WSM. Winchester said xxx grains of 760 was the only load they had. Knowing H-4831 and AA-4350 were in the same burn rate range, I loaded some with those powders. I never liked WW-760, I still don't! I got one of the first ones that showed up around here, there was nothing "out there" as for loading data.

The only brass available was buying, shooting factory loads. In so doing, I learned where the parameters were for expected velocity, yes my pact chrono worked well. I got several good loads by extrapolating 300 win mag loads down, and 30-60 loads up for a halfway point for starting loads. Without a chronograph, I would not dream of doing that.

[HiBC]

I am not an engineer.I am the guy who makes the engineers dreams come true.The Prototype machinist,modelmaker,moldmaker,guncrank.
If you are ramming a ball down a Hawken,some folks do better than others.
While I don't big game hunt at extreme ranges,I do mic my sight height,chrono my velocities,enter data like temp and altitude and BC into my Sierra Ballistic software and run range tables for my rifle/load combo.I can trajectory match reticle details with flight paths to make ladder reticles spot on,or match trajectories between a .308 and .338,same BC,same velocity.

I don't go buy a Rem 300 something.I decide I want this Bullet to strike this Target at this Velocity at this Range.I want it to be this Heavy,this Long,and have this Scope.I can't buy one just like that,so I build it.
You can buy a SMLE .303 British and a Lyman 310 tong tool and do all the hunting you want.
But why put down the guys who are a little more serious?I taught all this stuff to my brother and he is very good at it.Does things like hitting prairie dogs and coyotes at lasered 500,600 yds with an AR-10T in .308.One round at a time.I laugh at him and ask "Why do you carry that pig? You only shoot once!!You could use a Ruger #1" He just grins.

[wncchester]

HiBC - " You can buy a SMLE .303 British and a Lyman 310 tong tool and do all the hunting you want. But why put down the guys who are a little more serious?


Hi, I think you may have missed the question or point of some responses. The OP simply asked if a chronograph was "necessary" and we answered his question straight forward and with no intention of putting anyone down.

No one here has suggested that a chronogaph is pointless or without application to a reloader. In fact I have one and mentioned that I love to use it but, since I loaded many years before they were available it would be foolish of me to now say they are "necessary" wouldn't it?

And few bench resters bother with chrographs, at least not around here. It just doesn't add anything to their loading for 100 and 200 yard shots in competition. They still load as we all used to load, for what they see on the targets, not for what's on an LCD read-out.

Dies are necessary. A press and scale are necessary, but no chronograph is "necessary", and that's all we are saying.

Nnobby, I'm down to my last dozen or so Zipedos, then they are all gone, forever I guess.

[CraigC]

But why put down the guys who are a little more serious?

That's not what I'm saying at all. Actually, I'm a little jealous. I wish I was more interested in all that stuff and that reloading was fun. For me, it just isn't. Same for paper punching, I find it extremely boring, no matter how accurate the gun/load is. I'm more interested in what a given bullet at a given velocity does when it hits flesh.

My point is that while it may be a necessity for some, it isn't for others. A nice option at most, an unnecessary expense at the least. All dependent on individual needs, no two are the same. Why put down the guys who get by just fine without one?

[Smaug]

After reading this thread, I realized I am not a "serious reloader." I never go above book values, and I just trust that max published is not going to blow up my gun.

What really made me think about getting a chony was the idea that I could really predict my trajectories. Now, all I have is factory data and reloading manual data. If I had the muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient, I could run a plot and figure out the best zero for me, and make a little cheat card, in case the game turns out to be beyond 200 yards and I need to compensate.

One example - I downloaded Remington's data for their 240 gr. 44 Magnum ammo. Reading the footnotes, I see that it was shot from a 24" barrel. Therefore, that data is 100% useless for my Ruger Redhawk. (Who has a 44 Magnum, even a rifle, with a 24" barrel? Nobody except ballisticians with their universal receivers.)

That's it. For my kind of shooting, temperature, humidity, and altitude won't make enough of a difference to matter.

I really got a kick out of the guy who insisted: "I become the bullet." Those are big words; words that should be backed-up with multiple benchrest competition trophies.

Do you guys know of any other way to judge rifle bullet trajectory within 1/4" or so than by having a chrony or by using factory ammo and giving up accuracy?

[Hawg]

I've been reloading for 35 years. Never saw a need for a chrono and never had a desire to get one.

[HiBC]

Alright,I agree you don't need a chronograph to load high quality ammunition.
Old buffalo hunters reloaded after every days work .I have seen people meet their ammunition needs with the old $10 Lee loader and a hammer and a dipper.And,a loader can have the finest Sinclair's catalogue has to offer in benchrest grade loading equiptment and know how to use it,and not have a chronograph.
I guess I was writing from my own little world.
I consider one essential for me!!

[wncchester]

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[wncchester]

* "I guess I was writing from my own little world. I consider one essential for me!!"

* "I've been reloading for 35 years. Never saw a need for a chrono and never had a desire to get one."

Now those ARE valid comments, when it's stated to be a personal point of view and not meant to indicate what someone else "needs"!

[hodaka]

I'm glad I have one, but in practice, it is the last thing I do in load development. I work up loads based on how they group. I generally like to know how fast the good loads are going but for what I do, speed isn't nearly as important as accuracy.

[CPTMurdoc30]

It is a nice thing to have but it is not the be all end all in reloading. My grandfather had loads developed that were more accurate than anything I have done and he didn't have a crony.

Do I have one yes. Why this is for after I get a load that I believe is shooting to the best of my ability. I then take velocity measurement and run them threw my excel ballistics calculator I made. Then I create a drop chart out to as far as I think I am going to shoot.

[sc928porsche]

I love mine!

[Hook686]

Personally I reload to a muzzle energy/bullet velocity at a specific point. The chronograph sure makes this plausible.

[olddrum1]

A chronograph is not about how fast your round is going, it is about quality control. Extreme spread and average spread are two important uses with a chronograph. If I have a couple of hundred dollars rideing on my next two shots, I do not want an extreme spread to 100 fps between the next two rounds. I want nil difference from my first round to my one hundredth round. Oh, by the way, I shoot a lot of shotgun rounds, I am not talking rifles. I find the chrono under that situation a must have.

On the other hand if the kids are in the backyard goofing and breaking clays I could really care less if they have been through a chrono.