Another powder question - sort of...

melsman · May 4, 2009, 08:49 PM

Hello Everyone,

First post here, though I've used this site as a resource for a while now. I'm relatively new to reloading, but not new to firearms and solid propellants.

Anyway, I own both an SKS and a Ruger Mini 30. Since I live in the PRK, I have to hunt with copper bullets. I've tried the Cor-Bon DPX 7.62x39 - nice round, nice quality - mixed results with both rifles.

I wanted to hone the accuracy of each rifle by working up custom loads for each. I decided to cut my reloading teeth with Lapua FMJ 123g bullets and 28.5g of H322. Both rifles like this load. (Federal LRP's)

However, the Barnes TSX 123g is longer (.988" long) and thus has to seat more deeply to reach the COL of 2.20". This, of course, leaves less room in the case for powder. The most H322 I can cram into the case is 28gs - just enough to push it to a little over 2200 fps MV. Yet, I need to have about 2350+MV to ensure adequate expansion in a thick skinned hog @ 150 yards. Plus, I'd like to load some of the larger 150g rounds. So here's the question (finally) -

I need a powder that's going to take as little room as possible yet still give me the 2350+ fps MV that I need.

I've read consistently here that AA-1680 and Reloader #7 seem to perform well, as well as IMR 4198. Yet I haven't been able to find any comparisons as to how compact these different powders are. Would any of these "fill the bill"?

Thanks for your input,

Melsman

Sevens · May 4, 2009, 09:45 PM

Really wish I could help you with powder choice, but I don't load this caliber, so I have no idea. But here's a couple things to get started. First is that you listed IMR 4185. This one might be a typo--? I've never heard of 4185. There's 4895, 4198?

In any case, the powder manufacturer's list their published max loads on their website and in their powder guides. They also often list if it's a "C" or compressed load, meaning that it fills the case right to the brim and the seating of the bullet squashes it a bit.

No harm with compressed loads, as long as the load data supports the powder charge. Now you may not be sure of the relative compactness of the powder, but if someone publishes load data with a particular charge, it should fit in to the brass case, even if you have to compress it with the bullet.

melsman · May 4, 2009, 10:57 PM

Doh! I meant 4198. Thanks for the catch. I corrected my post.

That's the other issue - I can't find any loading data for the .310 Barnes TSX.

Melsman

FrankenMauser · May 4, 2009, 11:12 PM

In this case, I believe a ball powder will be your friend.

Sport45 · May 5, 2009, 01:47 AM

I don't load that cartridge either. Is the 2.20" OAL the maximum length the magazine allows? If the magazine and chamber/throat will let you, you don't have to match the OAL of the lead bullet.

Qtiphky · May 5, 2009, 06:19 AM

Melsman,
I use Barnes Tipped TSX and TSX in my 308 and 300 WSM and 270 Win. I love them. They are accurate and devastating on whitetail deer. Try this website for load data for the bullet you are loading. http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/load-data/ However, I don't see that they make a .310 diameter bullet in TSX, but they do make a .308 diameter. I would contact Barnes directly looking for starting points.

Try checking in your reloading manual, I see loads listed for 7.62x39 for bullets of the same weight. Also, according to Barnes, their bullets produce less friction because they have less surface space coming in contact with the lands, which reduces pressure.

steve4102 · May 5, 2009, 07:18 AM

322 is a great powder for the 7.62x39. I load it for 135 to 150gr. Max loads with 135 and 150gr bullets are heavily compressed. Nothing wrong with compressing a load of 322. In fact, I along with many other handloaders prefer compressed loads. Compression by itself does not increase pressure.

If you must have a non-compressed load, AA 1680, R-7 and H-4198 will fit the bill. I use both IMR-4198 and H-4198. H-4198 outperforms IMR in both accuracy and velocity.

I would also check to see what Max OAL is in your mags and chambers, may be that you can seat the bullet longer than 2.20 and still have the rifle feed and function. You should be able to load longer than 2.20 as most manuals list several loads at 2.220.

Give Barnes a call. They should be able to help with some data for their .310 bullets.

I would also check out Barnes 150gr 30-30 FN bullet. I have used these in my Mini-30 and they shoot great. I have read that some Mini-30's have a problem getting this FN bullet to feed, I did not experience this.

Sevens · May 5, 2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

I would contact Barnes directly looking for starting points.

Quote:

Give Barnes a call. They should be able to help with some data for their .310 bullets.

This is great advice... can't believe I forgot to say it.
Most bullet manufacturers and powder makers have ballisticians on staff that specifically handle customer questions. I have found that the best way to to shoot them an e-mail, because you can give them all the info and they can come up with an answer on their time, only takes a day or two at most.

Important to tell them every single thing that you can come up with. Including caliber, brand of brass, specific bullet, powder, case length, COAL if you are shooting for one, type/brand of rifle with length of barrel and the primers you intend to use. Give 'em all that info in an e-mail and they will almost always shoot back with a suggested load or at least a starting point and a max or a listed range of safe loads.

Note that this suggestion works well for jacketed handgun and more specifically, rifle bullet makers. Don't expect most cast lead bullet makers to provide this kind of assistance... most casters are small family type operations that don't have the testing and staff to handle these kinds of questions.

Given the price on Barnes bullets, those guys ought to come out to your load bench and assist you in the operation!

freakshow10mm · May 5, 2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Yet, I need to have about 2350+MV to ensure adequate expansion in a thick skinned hog @ 150 yards.

This stuck out from the rest in your first post.

How did you come about this number for velocity at being effective on that animal type? You do know the 30-30 Winchester with a 150gr bullet at 2000-2200fps is more than plenty for medium game out to 200y?

melsman · May 5, 2009, 02:17 PM

Thanks everyone for all of the feedback.

It sounds as though Barnes is a very responsive company when it comes to inquiries. I'm not used to that. I've usually gotten faster (yet accurate) results by posting on line, but I'll give Barnes a call/email. (Their website stops short of discussing loads or other details for the 123g .310 TSX bullet.)

Freakshow - I came to the 2350+MV based on terminal velocity required to ensure adequate expansion/penetration for the 123g TSX - about 1800 fps. At 150 yards, the minimum MV required to achieve that is 2300 fps. Throw in an extra 50 fps for the tough pig hide (and/or to account for variances in powder burn rates), and viola! - 2350 fps.

Thanks, Steve for the info on compressed loads. I guess I should educate myself on the proper way of compressing loads. I tried compressing H322 past the 28.2 grain mark, but it seems pretty firm. Before I go further, I need to do more research to learn the proper way of compressing.

As for the COL of 2.20", Barnes recommends keeping the TSX .050" off of the lands. So, even though my magazines can handle slightly longer cartridges, I'm trying to stay as short as possible.

Quote:

Given the price on Barnes bullets, those guys ought to come out to your load bench and assist you in the operation!

Now that's funny, right there!

Again, thanks for all of the feedback. I really appreciate it.

Melsman

crowbeaner · May 5, 2009, 02:58 PM

Try 30.0 of H335 with the 123 grainer.

James R. Burke · May 5, 2009, 03:05 PM

I would take Sevens advice. Sounds good, and they like when you use there product anyways. Also sounds like Crowbeaner has a good one.

steve4102 · May 5, 2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

As for the COL of 2.20", Barnes recommends keeping the TSX .050" off of the lands. So, even though my magazines can handle slightly longer cartridges, I'm trying to stay as short as possible.

Have you measured the distance to the lands in your Mini-30. The throat on mine was huge. I couldn't even come close to the lands even with a 150gr Hornady RN.

Quote:

I guess I should educate myself on the proper way of compressing loads

Use a long drop tube and let the powder swirl down the powder funnel.

freakshow10mm · May 5, 2009, 11:34 PM

Not following your WAG for velocity but good luck with your choice.

melsman · May 7, 2009, 12:12 AM

Well, I asked... and received this response from a gentleman named 'Preston' @ Barnes -

Quote:

We actually just finished shooting the data for the 7.62x39.
I have attached the data to this email.
We found H4198 to achieve at the max charge the highest velocity, 2512 fps.
Hope this helps.

Thanks, Preston

Here's the data:

Quote:

Bullet Weight: 123 gr
Case Trim Length: 1.518"
Bullet Style: TSX/TAC-X
Primer: Fed 210,
COAL: 2.190" ,
Barrel Length: 25.0",
Case: Winchester ,
Twist Rate: 1:9.45",

Powder, Min. Charge (grns), Velocity(fps), Max. Charge(grns), Velocity(fps), Ref. Manual

H4198, 24.5, N/A, 26.5, 2512, Hodgdon 26
H335, 30.0, N/A, 31.5, 2406, Hodgdon 26
RL 7, 24.5, N/A, 25.5, 2317, Hodgdon 26
♦ IMR 4198, 23.0, N/A, 25.0, 2459, Hodgdon 26
1680, 22.7, N/A, 24.5, 2366, Sierra 5th

Note: Charges listed are published in the particular reference manual as noted. Maximum charges were fired in a SAAMI pressure barrel and fall within safe pressure limits for this cartridge. Actual maximum velocities obtained with this bullet are listed. Minimum charge velocities not available at this time.

♦ Indicates most accurate load tested.

(Sorry about the formatting - I can't get it to keep the spacing.)

And I just bought a pound of H4198 and RL 7 today to experiment with!

steve4102 · May 7, 2009, 07:11 AM

Running this data through QL it appears your 18.5 inch barrel Ruger should run at about 2380fps with 26.5gr of H4198.

melsman · May 7, 2009, 08:18 AM

2380 fps... just what I was looking for! Thanks, Steve, for running the numbers for me.

Melsman

May 4, 2009, 08:49 PM	#1
melsman Junior Member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 5	Another powder question - sort of... Hello Everyone, First post here, though I've used this site as a resource for a while now. I'm relatively new to reloading, but not new to firearms and solid propellants. Anyway, I own both an SKS and a Ruger Mini 30. Since I live in the PRK, I have to hunt with copper bullets. I've tried the Cor-Bon DPX 7.62x39 - nice round, nice quality - mixed results with both rifles. I wanted to hone the accuracy of each rifle by working up custom loads for each. I decided to cut my reloading teeth with Lapua FMJ 123g bullets and 28.5g of H322. Both rifles like this load. (Federal LRP's) However, the Barnes TSX 123g is longer (.988" long) and thus has to seat more deeply to reach the COL of 2.20". This, of course, leaves less room in the case for powder. The most H322 I can cram into the case is 28gs - just enough to push it to a little over 2200 fps MV. Yet, I need to have about 2350+MV to ensure adequate expansion in a thick skinned hog @ 150 yards. Plus, I'd like to load some of the larger 150g rounds. So here's the question (finally) - I need a powder that's going to take as little room as possible yet still give me the 2350+ fps MV that I need. I've read consistently here that AA-1680 and Reloader #7 seem to perform well, as well as IMR 4198. Yet I haven't been able to find any comparisons as to how compact these different powders are. Would any of these "fill the bill"? Thanks for your input, Melsman Last edited by melsman; May 4, 2009 at 10:56 PM.

May 4, 2009, 09:45 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Really wish I could help you with powder choice, but I don't load this caliber, so I have no idea. But here's a couple things to get started. First is that you listed IMR 4185. This one might be a typo--? I've never heard of 4185. There's 4895, 4198? In any case, the powder manufacturer's list their published max loads on their website and in their powder guides. They also often list if it's a "C" or compressed load, meaning that it fills the case right to the brim and the seating of the bullet squashes it a bit. No harm with compressed loads, as long as the load data supports the powder charge. Now you may not be sure of the relative compactness of the powder, but if someone publishes load data with a particular charge, it should fit in to the brass case, even if you have to compress it with the bullet. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

May 5, 2009, 01:47 AM	#5
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I don't load that cartridge either. Is the 2.20" OAL the maximum length the magazine allows? If the magazine and chamber/throat will let you, you don't have to match the OAL of the lead bullet. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

May 5, 2009, 06:19 AM	#6
Qtiphky Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2008 Location: Upper Michigan, above the Mackinac Bridge Posts: 568	Try this website Melsman, I use Barnes Tipped TSX and TSX in my 308 and 300 WSM and 270 Win. I love them. They are accurate and devastating on whitetail deer. Try this website for load data for the bullet you are loading. http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/load-data/ However, I don't see that they make a .310 diameter bullet in TSX, but they do make a .308 diameter. I would contact Barnes directly looking for starting points. Try checking in your reloading manual, I see loads listed for 7.62x39 for bullets of the same weight. Also, according to Barnes, their bullets produce less friction because they have less surface space coming in contact with the lands, which reduces pressure.

May 5, 2009, 02:58 PM	#11
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Try 30.0 of H335 with the 123 grainer. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

May 4, 2009, 10:57 PM	#3
melsman Junior Member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 5	Doh! I meant 4198. Thanks for the catch. I corrected my post. That's the other issue - I can't find any loading data for the .310 Barnes TSX. Melsman

May 4, 2009, 11:12 PM	#4
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,426	In this case, I believe a ball powder will be your friend.

May 5, 2009, 07:18 AM	#7
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	322 is a great powder for the 7.62x39. I load it for 135 to 150gr. Max loads with 135 and 150gr bullets are heavily compressed. Nothing wrong with compressing a load of 322. In fact, I along with many other handloaders prefer compressed loads. Compression by itself does not increase pressure. If you must have a non-compressed load, AA 1680, R-7 and H-4198 will fit the bill. I use both IMR-4198 and H-4198. H-4198 outperforms IMR in both accuracy and velocity. I would also check to see what Max OAL is in your mags and chambers, may be that you can seat the bullet longer than 2.20 and still have the rifle feed and function. You should be able to load longer than 2.20 as most manuals list several loads at 2.220. Give Barnes a call. They should be able to help with some data for their .310 bullets. I would also check out Barnes 150gr 30-30 FN bullet. I have used these in my Mini-30 and they shoot great. I have read that some Mini-30's have a problem getting this FN bullet to feed, I did not experience this. Last edited by steve4102; May 5, 2009 at 07:24 AM.

May 5, 2009, 03:05 PM	#12
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	I would take Sevens advice. Sounds good, and they like when you use there product anyways. Also sounds like Crowbeaner has a good one. Last edited by James R. Burke; May 5, 2009 at 03:22 PM. Reason: Add:

May 5, 2009, 11:34 PM	#14
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Not following your WAG for velocity but good luck with your choice.

May 7, 2009, 07:11 AM	#16
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Running this data through QL it appears your 18.5 inch barrel Ruger should run at about 2380fps with 26.5gr of H4198.

May 7, 2009, 08:18 AM	#17
melsman Junior Member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 5	2380 fps... just what I was looking for! Thanks, Steve, for running the numbers for me. Melsman