9mm & .40 Cal LEAD!!!

[Dan The Sig Man]

Ok here is a coupel questions that I am sure someone somewhere has asked or brought up. I asked a Question in an OLD thread, but I wanted to ask this in a New Thread.

Ok I am wanting to Reload .40 Cal. For my Glock 23... Using LEAD Bullets. I have Silver State Bullet .40 Cal. FP 180gr. Bullets. What does everything think? NO I have not changed out the Glock Factory barrel... Should I?

Now I also have a Sig P229R and P239 that I shoot 9mm in. I am thinking about relaoding using a LEAD Silver State Bullet.

What do you guys think about these two ideas? I am also thinking about using Loads that are less than Factory or Start loads... I have read that if you use lighter loads, it will lower the ammount of LEADING that happens in the Barrels. You guys info would be very much welcome and I thank you all very much ahead of time.

Dan

[rgitzlaff]

I don't know anything about the SIG, but I know the glocks are not recomended to use lead bullets in. Perhaps if you use gas checks on the bullets it'll help prevent them from leading up? You can always try it, just make sure to keep an eye on the bore every couple of shots to see if lead is building up. Too much lead will cause a dangerous pressure situation, like and obstructed barrel.

[45Marlin carbine]

I've loaded for a Sig 9mm useing Red Dot under a 125 gr cast TFP.
does OK, actually the first cast slugs for me to load jacketed being scarce.

loaded for 2 other makes of 9mm pistols (S&W, Browning) useing this recipe also.
accuracy was OK in all of them at 50'

[Dan The Sig Man]

Now something that I am not sure about it the BLUE waxy material that is in the Single Groove of these Silve State Bullets. I am going to get a picture of the Bullets and post one, just so there is detail in what I am asking about. See the Pictures below please.

I have NEVER delt with LEAD Bullets and know NOTHING about them. Any information would be greatful as I would like to think about reloading with LEAD if it is good for the Sig's and ok if I change out the Barrel on my G23.

[okiefarmer]

Dan the Sigman,

The blue stuff is called bullet lube and you don't want to shoot lead projos without it. Your barrel will lead up something fierce without it. If you have not shot lead before, get ready for a little smoke. Some think it is the powder the use and will work with different powders to try to cut down on the smoke. It is not as bad as BP, not near as bad. It is simply the lube burning off in the barrel, not a big thang.

I don't particularly care for the hard lubes in pistol loads, especially the lower velocity load, don't think they get hot enough to really come out of the grease groove and onto the barrel, where it needs to be. On the other hand, I do think the heated lubes, the harder ones, likely stay harder in a loaded round longer, especially if kept in hotter environements. Always thought the softer lubes might contaminate the powder if the got real warm. Prolly a non issue, just something I always considered. I think you get plenty of lube from the hard lubes however, and are much easier to handle when loading.

[Dan The Sig Man]

Okie...

Thank you very much for your information... That makes complete sense, so that Lube will HELP to Reduce the Leading aspect? Maybe not eliminate it, but it will help?

Again, thank you very much for the info.

[Doby45]

I am doing this very thing right now for my Glock 23 but I have a Storm Lake aftermarket barrel. The bullets you have look exactly like the Dardas 180gr 40cal bullets that I have, right down to the hard blue lube. I am using Universal powder and still working up my load to use.

[Dan The Sig Man]

Doby,

I was looking at the Lone Wolf Aftermarkets... I have looked at the Storm AM barrels in the past, but that was before I considered reloading for the G23. I know that I want to reload for it, because when my wife shoots it, she sometimes says that Factory Ammo makes it kick real hard. (She is only 5'-5", Great shooter) She has said something about having rounds that dont recoil so hard, that is why i would reload got the G23. So with your Aftermarket Storm are you seeing ANY Lead build up at all?

Oh I am looking at using either Ranshot Silhouette or I just bought my Local Shops last 1lb. of Green Dot.

[Gregory Gauvin]

Reducing the charge of the load will not necessary make it lead the barrel any less. Nn fact, it may increase the amount of leading. Depending on the BHN (hardness) number of the bullet you're using, there will be a window of best performance with the least amount of leading. If the BHN is high, the bullets need more pressure behind them to seal the bore than if you were shooting very soft lead. The higher the BHN, typically, the higher velocity you can achieve without leading. However, there is an upper limit. Push the velocity too much, and leading will start to occur. If you observed leading at the throat, increase velocity. If you observe leading at the muzzle, decrease velocity.

Do not shoot soft lead in polygonal barrels. A BHN of at least 24 should be used in a glock factory barrel (in my opinion). Soft lead will lead it up, and KaBoom. Also, I would recommend seating the bullets to MAX OAL of your magazine. My glock 23 will feed and chamber rounds measuring 1.170" or so versus the listed 1.135" max OAL. I would also recommend you shoot 155 grain or lighter bullets and be mindful of your crimps.

Keep your barrel clean. Do not shoot FMJ before cleaning your bore.

[Doby45]

Dan,

Having owned both the Lone Wolf and Storm Lake barrels, I would go with the Storm Lake. The Lone Wolf seemed "unfinished" as it had very sharp edges and would fail to chamber about every third round, be it reloads or factory ammo. My understanding is the Lone Wolf barrel has a slightly tighter chamber, tight enough that in my opinion it is unreliable. The Storm Lake barrel on the other hand is more finished and for lack of a better word "polished". The edges are relieved and in every sense of the word matches the newer Glock factory barrels. The chamber is the same as my factory barrel both in tightness and support. My Glock has the newer barrel that is more fully supported. I give the Storm Lake an A+ in all aspects and since testing it have left it in my carry weapon.

As far as my lead load work up I am still in the testing phase. I had one load made up that seemed to kick more than I wanted so I am working on getting that load tuned down a bit and working properly. I have found out that when it comes to working up a load nothing beats having a chrony.

[bfoosh006]

Go to a barrel with "normal" lands and grooves, (the Glocks all have poly-somthin' or other lands) and try these then...https://www.blackbulletsinternational.com/Home_Page.php

[Dan The Sig Man]

Greg,

I assembled a MOCK test round yesterday just so that I could get my Dies setup so that it would seat the Bullet to a good depth. Well I decided to put a Mic on a Factory Winchester 180gr. FMJ round. Well it measure exactly what you are saying 1.17", Why is it that the Load data that I have says 1.135" total OAL? My Test Dummy loaded very well in my G23, but if Factory is set to 1.17" and I have never had a load problem at all, why couldnt I do that same thing? Is there Data out there that will suggest Starting Loads for a 1.17" OAL? I know that 0.04" is not a LOT, but it is when you start talking about PRESSURE. Comments?

Thanks, Dan

[Gregory Gauvin]

Internal ballistics say that when you seat a bullet deeper in the case, less volume is created, thus there is an increase in pressure. Pressure effects the burn rate of powders. Never, ever, go below a minimum listed OAL. What can happen is the reduction in volume makes the powder reach it's peak pressure a lot sooner than if you had seater the bullet longer, and this can result in catastrophic failure - especially when reaching max loads. The higher the pressure (the deeper you seat a bullet), also means, more velocity. The further you seat a bullet (more volume in case), less pressure, less velocity. The difference is generally minimal - typically in the 50 feet per second range. Therefore, if you have a round loaded at 1.100" and one at 1.135" with the same charge, the 1.135" may loose 50 feet per second velocity - however, you can increase the charge .1 or .2 grains to compensate for this. It is much safer to increase powder charge than it is to seat a bullet deeper in the case to gain velocity. When volume in the case is reduced, the burn rate of some powders become erratic. This is why it is important to never go below a safe minimum. You may also find that accuracy increases slightly when the bullets are seated further out. The jump from the chamber to the lands and groves is reduced. This is especially noticeable on rifles.

It is generally wise to stick to what is listed in the load manual. However, you can safely seat bullets past the listed maximum OAL providing they chamber in your gun. Depending on bullet shape and length, you may or may not have a round go into full battery. I find that on my glock 23, it will chamber any length, providing they fit in the magazine which happens to be around 1.170". However, the max OAL of a .45 ACP is 1.275" and my 1911 will not go into battery at this length with some bullets. I have to reduce the OAL to 1.265" in order for them to be reliable. Keep in mind that the glock may fire out of battery, and a round that fires out of battery will blow up the gun. I can only assume the glocks rifling has a small gap between the chamber and barrel (Throat) that allows bullets seated long to chamber, otherwise, you would be trying to force a round into the rifling during chambering which would most likely cause an out of battery condition.

Another reason to seat bullets longer is to reduce the chance of bullet seatback. If a bullet that does not have a good crimp to it (remember, do not overcrimp lead bullets either!), and it hits the feed ramp and gets pushed back .02", a near max load seated at minimum OAL will dramatically increase in pressure. Since the listed max OAL is 1.135" and most books have a listed minimum of 1.125" or 1.115" with some powders, if you seat to 1.170" this gives you a big buffer zone of safety.

The MAX 1.135" OAL listed for the .40SW isn't written for Glocks. There are other pistols out there that will not chamber anything longer than 1.135", or for that matter, let the rounds fit in their magazines. Another reason they don't list 1.170" MAX OAL is that since the 40 is a high pressure round, some powders may not burn completely when you reduce pressure by seating this long, particularly when charging the case with minimum loads.

To sum up, if there is a listed MAX load at 1.135", and you seat your bullets to 1.170", you will reduce pressure and velocity, but you can also safely increase your charge slightly above the listed max to compensate. Be careful, and when loading the .40 I would strongly suggest using slow burning powders like HS-6. I tried to find an efficient means by experimenting with OAL and powder charge. I'd figure, if I reduce my OAL I could get the velocity I want with less powder. Why not do that I thought, it would save powder. Well, come to discover, you don't really loose that much velocity when seating bullets longer, but you gain a LOT in safety margin for over pressure problems, and the loss in efficiency is worth it (.01 grains more per case or so).

The power listed in your load manual and the powder winchester is using are not the same. Therefore, OAL's will differ. Reloaders can't obtain factory powders either (what I'm told). If you have picked your powder, and have your load data listed for the load using the 1.135" OAL, you don't need a starting load if you wish to seat the bullet longer. You can use the same data and start load listed for the 1.135" load. However, keep in mind that when seating .04" longer, you may loose perhaps 50 feet per second. So, in effect, you'll have a real minimum load. Taking the starting load listed and increase it say perhaps .01 to .02 grains, and work from there.

[Dan The Sig Man]

Greg... THANK YOU VERY MUCH... That was a great explaination and I really understand a little more than I sis prior to that explaination. I really cant wait to start getting into the reloading on this round, just so I can experience a little and see about making a round that has less recoil than the Factory stuff we have been shooting.

Right now the ONLY powder that I can get my hands on are these: 1lb. Green Dot, and I have 1lb. RamShot Silhouette. These are about the only powders I can get locally at the Moment. I was going to use thier Load Data and see what I could work up with these as starters.

[Gregory Gauvin]

Another tid-bit that you may find of interest if using the Glock factory barrel. Because of the Kaboom internet scares, I approached loading the .40sw with A LOT of caution. No one can exactly pinpoint why or what causes any particular failure other than "the pressure went up". Some deem double charged cases, others claim a leaded barrel, some say an out of battery condition, others argue bullet set-back, and the list goes on. However, one thing is clear. When a glock blows up, the case fails. The one concern I had was weak cases, or stressed brass, or brass reloaded too many times that had weakened to the point that they would fail.

Factory ammo, loaded to max spec (Speer ammo is HOT stuff), really works the brass. The 6 o'clock area of the brass, unsupported by the feed ramp, is most crucial. Some say not to fire 40sw brass more than 4 times, and not more than twice is loading to max. If you follow my logic below, I think you will find no problems loading until you get loose primer pockets.

When working a load, even minimum load, take the fired case and use a dial caliper to measure the expanded case head. Compare this to a factory loaded fired case. Should your reloaded ammo ever measure more than factory, STOP...your pushing pressures up and working that brass too much. If you can keep your brass .002" or more smaller than compared to a factory expanded case at the head, you're golden. If you run a minimum charged and fired case in your sizing die and then a factory loaded case, you may notice the extra effort it takes to resize the factory case. The more the case is expanded, the more pressure, the more you work the brass, the more prone to failure.

But here's the catch. As little as .3 grains charge will make a noticeable difference.

[FrankenMauser]

I don't feel like commenting on the polygonal rifling discussion, right now. So....

The Silver State bullets I have used were very consistent, and performed well. My favorite is their .356" 122 gr LFP. (9mm, with 4.6 gr Alliant Unique, can't quote OAL right now.)
In my experience, they are a good choice for 'true' lead bullet loads. That means they'll do fine at low velocities, but still work well at moderate speeds. Attempting to push them to FMJ or plated lead velocities will just give you a nightmarish leading problem.

[Dan The Sig Man]

FrankenMauser,

Thank you for your comment, that makes me feel a little better about what i was ABLE to buy. I wanted to get FMJ's, but I could find NONE locally, so I went with the Silver State stuff. They seem very well done and EVERYONE has a full groove of Lube and I am hoping that if I get a Storm Aftermarket, I wont have to deal with leading at all. I am still going to shoot about 2-10 out of the Factory Barrel, just to see if leading starts, IF it does I will not shoot LEAD out of it again.

Thanks again,
dan

[Dan The Sig Man]

I almost got Itchy today and had to REALLY resist myself from loading 10 or so .40 180 gr. Lead FP's, but I would have hated to load them and than not want to shoot them out of my Glock. One main reason I didnt is because I dont have a Vibro Tumbler yet, and I didnt feel like washing my Brass today. Maybe I will get the Nerve later this week, or this weekend and load me up about 2-10 and take them to The Range and see if the G23 Leads or not.

Thanks for ALL your comments guy. As for the 9MM Lead... I decided against getting the LEAD, I was able to get 500 FMJ's yesterday and that will hold me over tell Precision Delta can get my 1,000 9mm and 1,000 .40 S&W FMJ's.