Who here has reloaded for their Glock 23?

[Sixer]

I'm sure this has been discussed more than once, but I want to be absolutley sure about reloading for my G23 before I go blowing stuff up (gun, hands, face, etc.)

If anyone has any first hand knowledge to share, I would appreciate it. Is it unsafe compared to reloading for any other 40 S&W handgun? What bullets and powder combo's do you suggest for plinking? Thanks

[bullspotter]

Im running MT gold 165gr jhp with unique powder and cci primmers in my glock 22 40s&w with no problems.

[Doby45]

In my 23 I am running Precision Delta FMJTC 165gr and HS-6 powder and Win and CCI primers. Shoot great.

[Shoney]

Sixer

You have heard one of the Urban Myths about Glock's. They are. "you cant shoot reloads in Glocks", and "you can't shoot lead in Glocks".

These urban myths keep rearing their ugly heads, and come from the times the 40S&W was first introduced by Glock, and a lot of KABOOMS were happening.

In their warantee
Glock states that you will void the warantee if you shoot reloads in your Glock. However, I am unaware of any pistol manufacturer who does not include this language.

Often you will read statements like, "You can't shoot lead in Glock barrels." and "Get an aftermarket barrel because they have supported chambers and don't have the 'supposed' leading problem as Glock barrels do.

If you replace the barrel of the Glock with someone elses barrel, you have just voided the warantee!!!!????? Bigtime!!!! If you get a factory round that is double charged (there are many documented cases of this) all warantees are off.

Short story on "lead Kabooms in 40SW". There were two problems with the OLDER Glocks themselves.
1. They would fire out of battery.
2. The unsupported chamber.

What happened was there was a lead build up in the chamber, that was not cleaned properly or often enough. This allowed the cartridge to move back in the chamber with each succesiive shot as the lead built up, and it would fire out of battery with very little chamber support. Kaboom!

For a more detailed rendition read my post #40 @
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...=377974&page=2

[Sixer]

Thanks guys!

Good stuff Shoney, thanks for the input on both posts. Like I said, I just want to be 100% sure on this one. I value my fingers and I'm very new at this reloading thing. I appreciate the help and can't wait to get some loads worked up for my G23!

[Sixer]

Dang...Double Tap

[WESHOOT2]

-Sized case.
-CCI500; can substitute WSP or Federal 100.
-Rainier 180g TCJ-FP.
-OAL 1.130"+/-.005".
-Alliant Power Pistol; 6.0g (av 890--930fps, based on specific gun. General accuracy 2.5" or better at 25 yds).

-Finish crimping using the LEE Carbide Factory Crimp die.

-Ensure sufficient case neck tension by pushing a finished rd nose-first into an immoveable object; the cartridge must not shorten.

[JohnKSa]

You have heard one of the Urban Myths about Glock's. They are. "you cant shoot reloads in Glocks", and "you can't shoot lead in Glocks".

Well, obviously you can shoot lead and reloads, it just raises the probability of having a catastrophic incident. People who are lucky, or very careful, or both have used reloads and shot lead in Glocks without event, but it's a risk.

Both of the recommendations have to do with verifiable issues affecting Glock pistols. The statements (about avoiding reloads & unjacketed bullets) are backed up by the manufacturer and other very knowledgeable persons.

I've heard that the new Glock manuals say that lead bullets (unjacketed) are not recommended and there's information on the web, in various Glock publications and in the Glock armorer's course explaining why. Polygonal rifling is not a good match for lead bullets. That's according to MarkCo (Mark Passamaneck--a mechanical engineer who works in the forensic engineering industry doing failure analysis--also the co-author of the book "The Glock in Competition"), the late Gale McMillan (noted gunsmith) and, of course, Glock. Anyone who doubts what Glock has to say can call Glock USA @ 770 - 432 1202. They'll tell you exactly what I just did--the rifling in Glock barrels doesn't get along with unjacketed bullets.

There's also a manufacturer recommendation against shooting reloaded ammunition in the manuals, and again, if you want to know why that information is readily available on the web. The larger chambers in some Glock pistols put more stress on the brass and can cause premature case failures in re-used cases.

NOW, you may disagree with Gale McMillan, MarkCo, Glock and the others who know that these are real issues, and that's just fine. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. But when you go farther and state that the recommendations against reload & unjacketed bullets in Glocks are myths that's really overstating your case.

[jgcoastie]

Better off getting a good quality, standard rifled aftermarket barrel by a well-known company. This would cure both the "unsupported chamber" problem and the "can't shoot lead in a Glock" problem, in one easy step.

[gruntrus]

Interesting. The guys who does my reloading would not go into detail on his refusal to load for my G23. Thanks for the insights and the tips on how to.

[Sevens]

The Glock in .40 S&W caliber offers the perfect storm for a real problem.
It's a two part problem, the platform and the caliber.

First, you've got a pistol with a known "generous" chamber. This give brass a shorter life before you can see a problem with it. Next is that Glock has pretty much taken a 9mm pistol and made a .40 out of it, so there's a layer of insurance that's lacking from other Glocks. And there is always the lead bullet/Glock barrel issue, which has been pointed out.

The other part of the problem is that .40 S&W is perhaps the LEAST forgiving caliber out there. Look at the pressure that the .40 runs at-- it's up there. And it's not the pressure all by itself, it's the pressure along with the size of the brass case. There's very, very little room for error with this round. Bullet depth and internal space is critical with the .40 S&W. Since it's debut, this caliber has carried specific warnings about pressure and COAL in all the manufacturer's powder guides.

Is the caliber inherently dangerous? No. Is it inherently less forgiving? Absolutely.

If you are careless at the bench and do something that compromises your case mouth/bullet tension, you are risking a bullet setback. This goes for any semi-auto caliber. But in the .40 cal, you are running a high pressure round with no room for error with internal space. And your pistol (no matter who makes it) is violently shucking your rounds in to the chamber with force.

If you've flared the case mouth too much... if you've over-crimped (resulting in a net loss of mouth tension) then you now have ammo that is susceptible to setback under force.

Now add that up with Glock's generous chamber and well-documented reduced chamber support and it all adds up to a caliber and a handgun that is much more susceptible to a major problem.

Fact is, and we all know it, that ANY handgun made by ANYONE in ANY caliber can have a kaboom. And a ham-fisted, careless reloader can blow up ANY pistol if he's poor enough at the load bench.

But it's also a fact that more .40 S&W Glocks have blown apart than any other caliber Glock. And it's not a stretch to say that the .40 S&W caliber is not anywhere near as forgiving as, say, .38 Special reloads in a .357 Magnum revolver.

None of what I wrote means you can't or shouldn't reload ammo for .40 S&W Glock pistols.

But you've got to go in to it knowing these things and taking them in to consideration.

[DWARREN123]

I have loaded about 2,500 rounds of 40 cal for a 23 and used plated and jacketed bullets. Never had a problem, just need to be on your toes and inspect. Quality of handloaded ammo is most important and you get that from inspecting during all the steps.

[goodspeed(TPF)]

Well, obviously you can shoot lead and reloads, it just raises the probability of having a catastrophic incident. People who are lucky, or very careful, or both have used reloads and shot lead in Glocks without event, but it's a risk.

Both of the recommendations have to do with verifiable issues affecting Glock pistols. The statements (about avoiding reloads & unjacketed bullets) are backed up by the manufacturer and other very knowledgeable persons.

I've heard that the new Glock manuals say that lead bullets (unjacketed) are not recommended and there's information on the web, in various Glock publications and in the Glock armorer's course explaining why. Polygonal rifling is not a good match for lead bullets. That's according to MarkCo (Mark Passamaneck--a mechanical engineer who works in the forensic engineering industry doing failure analysis--also the co-author of the book "The Glock in Competition"), the late Gale McMillan (noted gunsmith) and, of course, Glock. Anyone who doubts what Glock has to say can call Glock USA @ 770 - 432 1202. They'll tell you exactly what I just did--the rifling in Glock barrels doesn't get along with unjacketed bullets.

There's also a manufacturer recommendation against shooting reloaded ammunition in the manuals, and again, if you want to know why that information is readily available on the web. The larger chambers in some Glock pistols put more stress on the brass and can cause premature case failures in re-used cases.

NOW, you may disagree with Gale McMillan, MarkCo, Glock and the others who know that these are real issues, and that's just fine. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. But when you go farther and state that the recommendations against reload & unjacketed bullets in Glocks are myths that's really overstating your case.

Well said. Well said indeed. Sticky that and "close" it. Maybe we won't have to revisit this type of thread again. Then again.....

[Dan The Sig Man]

OK this thread has not been touched on Since March... So I am going to bring it to the TOP...

I am very interested in Loading LEAD for my Glock 23... I just went to a local place and bought 500 Silver State Bullet .40 Cal. 180gr FP Lead Bullets.

Now I am thinking about loading a very low load for these rounds. I want something that is not going to recoil or kick like Factory ammo does. I have read a few things that state if you use a Smaller Charge, it can help to control the Leading in the Glocks.

I really just want to know if I should use Lead FP for reloading in a Glock 23... If not I have 500 10/40 Caliber Silver Stae Bullets I CAN'T USE. Anyone want to buy them if I can use them in for my Glock? It is the only .40 Cal I have.

[steve4102]

Slap one of these in your Glock and you will be good to go.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Products.aspx?CAT=241

[Dan The Sig Man]

Steve,

So as long as I change out the Barrel there should not be an issue at all with the LEADING? I have read some stuff about that, but just never really knew if that was a good idea or not. Well I guess I will have to think seriously about that, and that is really about the ONLY true thing to think about?

[ltdave]

What happened was there was a lead build up in the chamber, that was not cleaned properly or often enough.

i have a smith and wesson model 66-1 with a 2-1/2" barrel. if i shoot 20 rounds through it i can scrape enough lead out to actually indicate on my reloading scale...

i have a G22 with the factory barrel. it is NOT a polygonal rifled barrel. Glock has never said (that I ever saw) that they have polygonal rifling. Hk says that they do, right in their manual. i can (and have) shot over 270 rounds of lead swc rounds through it at a time and with patches and solvent be clean of all lead after no more than a dozen patches. maybe i have the only Mystical Glock Barrels because if you think there is a lead 'build-up' you would think the above Smith is a metal recycling center...

this is a group of 5 at 18 or 19 yards 2 hand unsupported. its 5.7g of Unique with a small pistol primer in mixed cases. the bullet is a 155g LSWC. i have since had similar results with as low as 5.3g of unique but 5.4g is needed for the reliability (slide function)...

I've heard that the new Glock manuals say that lead bullets (unjacketed) are not recommended

not recommended is different than banned or not allowed. although i think this thread has served its purpose of passing on information...

cheers

[totalloser]

I think Glock barrels are polygonal. They may make a different rifling, but I have never heard of it, or seen it. I HAVE heard of folks accidentally misidentifying the rifling type since it doesn't really look like a polygon.

I have loaded thousands and thousands of .357sig and .40's for my g22/g27 and am confident in my loads. Some folks have trouble with the unsupported chamber issue, which you will see in your brass if you have one of the old style barrels. It will leave a smiley on the base of the brass. I have yet to see one, and load 100% range brass in .40, but I do not doubt this is an issue with some barrels. IMO loading for .40 is about as easy as 9mm.

My advice is to pay more attention to successes than failures loading lead. Some folks have nothing but trouble, others tinker with it, and make it work flawlessly. From what I have read, the issue is not that you can't load lead with polygon rifling, but that the hardness is more critical (IE less forgiving as noted in previous posts). Water dropped WW's seem to be just about right. I am fond of using my own mix of 50% beeswax/canola for lube with single lube groove casts, but many really have good luck with Alox. I don't like the mess. Oh, and the taper to the polygon on the older barrels after the chamber has been documented to cause excessive leading.

[JohnKSa]

Glock has never said (that I ever saw) that they have polygonal rifling.

From the Glock website (Under the Glock Advantage, section 8)
http://www.glock.com/english/pistols_adv08.htm
BARREL PROFILE
Solid, cold-hammered barrels with Tenifer surface treatment and rounded (hexagonal or octagonal) interior profiles offer numerous advantages to the user. GLOCK barrels are considerably easier to clean and maintain uniform precision even after a high number of rounds.
GLOCK barrels do not have any corners/edges (as in conventional barrel profiles - see picture) for deposits and enable better ballistic yield.


From the Glock website, pick any pistol model and click on Technical Data.

BARREL RIFLING
right hand, hexagonal
LENGTH OF TWIST
250 mm / 9.84 in.

From the Glock manual, p7 (describing the Glock 17, 17L, 19, 20, 22 & 23)

Barrel profile--hexagonal profile with right hand twist.

From the Glock manual, p8 (describing the Glock 21)

Barrel profile--octagonal profile with right hand twist.

The above information from the manual is echoed in the Armorer's manual.

[Dan The Sig Man]

Ok so here is what I am thinking... I guess it would be worth while for me to go ahead and shoot atleast 10-20 rounds through the Factory Glcok that came with my Gen. 3 Glock 23. That way I can find out if it is going to Lead or not. My Glock is Brand New and we just bought it in Feb., so I know it is a New Generation and that means it has the Newest Barrel configuration.

[Shoney]

JohnKSa
Reading my post #4 above by itself, I think your response is fair enough. However, I added another site for continued reading, review, and discussion on the subject. In that post of July 17th, 2008, I wrote:

I got my polygonal barreled 40S&W’s when the ”lead bullets cause Glock and other polygonal-barrel KAGOOMS” was being wildly bantered about on many forums, with very little truth to the mix. Before reloading lead, I did extensive research and discussed the problem with some well known gunsmiths and the Glock people at the SHOT Show. Both sphincters on every Glock staff were tighter than a bull a$$ at fly time. Nice folks, but NO HELP THERE! But they did make a valid point. Glock pistols are tremendously popular, and by shear weight of numbers you will have more “supposed problems” (their words).

There was no single factor that caused the problem; there were combinations of contributing factors. The shortest oversimplification is, “Glock KABOOMS were most commonly caused by lead buildup which could have been avoided with frequent inspection and cleaning of the chamber and barrel.” Just how often is frequent??? Every 100 rounds is anal???????? Every 200 rounds is prudent??????? Hell, I’ll err on anal until I get some data to increase or decrease.

Problems:
Unsupported Chamber - Glock started with loose chambers with a small grove at the rear in the 6 o’clock position, thus the case was not touching anything at that point, it was unsupported. If the pressure is sufficient and/or the case weak, then it will either expand into the unsupported portion of the chamber or will rupture.
Firing Out Of Battery - Means the weapon will fire when the slide is not completely forward; therefore, the cartridge brass is not properly head spaced against the front of the chamber. Glock violently denies their weapons do this. However, everyone I know with an older Glock will tell you they do.
Lead Bullets – the lead needs to be at least a Brinell hardness of 19. Velocities should be kept under 1000fps.

So what causes the KABOOMS?????? The common factor of kabooms was usually case failure, and most of the failures were with reloaded cases. But remember that factory rounds cause good numbers of KABOOMS every year as well.

Glock’s research of KABOOMS showed a build up of lead at the point of head-spacing. This caused the cartridges to be progressively set farther back in the chamber farther and farther as more rounds were fired. The design of the older Glocks allowed them to fire (fire out of battery) these rounds which were set back. If the pressure were sufficient, the case would rupture.

What factors can cause over pressure????? Obviously an overloaded round will do nicely. Lead bullets will cause leading in the barrel and the chamber. The degree of build up and the number of shots required to reach overpressure will vary wildly with lead composition/velocity/powder/lube and so on. The leading of the chamber in combination with the increased pressure of a leaded barrel can cause the case to rupture. There are lots of other factors, but will not be discussed here.

As mentioned, shooting jacketed bullets after lead in polygonal barrels does not clean out the lead. In reality the jacketed bullets irons the lead to shiny flat coating and the bore is decreased.

Bottom line. Shooting lead in polygonal barrels is safe as long as you use hard cast bullets, check the chamber and barrel for leading frequently, and clean the weapon more frequently than you would with jacketed.

I agree with the summation of your post #8 above, however, I still feel that if you follow the recommendations of frequent inspection/cleaning and shooting lead of the correct Brinell hardness at mid range pressures, that it is safe to shoot lead in polybonal barrels.

I respectfully submit that you read about the subject on glocktalk.com, and the great numbers of Glock shooter who safely shoot lead.

[JohnKSa]

I'm aware that many people do it and I'm aware of the reasons that some of them get away with it.

The problem is that a very knowledgeable reloader posts a long explanation of how you can shoot lead in Glock barrels and most of the people reading the post only get the part that says "you can shoot lead in Glock barrels".

Yes, if you're assiduous about cleaning, religious (anal if you prefer) about checking for leading and checking for bullet material buildup at the chamber mouth, if you stick with hard enough bullets of the proper size for the bore, never shoot jacketed bullets after lead bullets before cleaning carefully, are very careful about OAL and setback with the 180gr .40S&W loads, etc., etc., you can shoot lead reloads in Glock barrels and you'll probably have no problems.

I'm also aware that many people do it and don't get away with it, and that many people who THINK they're taking sufficient precautions really aren't. For example, I recall reading a post about a person who shot 50 rounds of lead bullet ammo through his Glock 9mm, and then blew it up by firing a single jacketed round down the leaded bore. Obviously the "check it every 100 rounds" recommendation wouldn't have helped this guy.

I don't have any problem with people shooting lead bullet reloads in Glock pistols (it's their prerogative and there's nothing I can do about it anyway). On the other hand, I think it's very important that people understand that there are a number of issues with reloading lead bullet ammunition for Glocks that don't necessarily apply to other pistols.

It's a myth that you CAN'T shoot lead reloads in Glocks, but it's not a myth that you SHOULDN'T shoot lead reloads in Glocks unless you thoroughly understand all the associated issues and risks and how to deal with them.

[Shoney]

JohnKSa

On the other hand, I think it's very important that people understand that there are a number of issues with reloading lead bullet ammunition for Glocks that don't necessarily apply to other pistols.

I think we agree on the majority of issues. I will include that caveat in future diatribes.

Since Glock changed some of the problem issues in their newer generation models, I have not heard of an inordinate numbers of Glock KB's. But since the only polygonal barrels I shoot nowadays are HK's, I really haven't paid attention.