Lead reloads for a Glock 9mm

Master Blaster · April 30, 2002, 10:30 AM

Well I have found a load that works and does not foul the polygonal rifling at all.

4.0 gr W231, WSP and using a Russell LRN.

The key is the bullet its made by a caster which my club buys from, The secret is the Brinell 18 hardness of the bullet, its similar to a jacketed bullet.

Sorry no Jacketed at our club due to a Zoning restriction, It was cop killer bullet year that year when the building was enlarged, and the brain trust that turned out for the zoning hearing included the Deputy Attorney General, who was worried we would shoot them thar kop killer bullets at our range, so No jacketed was put in the zoning variance.

Unkel Gilbey · May 2, 2002, 12:12 PM

I had always suspected that a really hard lead bullet would get the job done in the Glock. I wonder if a gas check would also help out if bullets of sufficient hardness couldn't be had?

Here's another question. I know that it would be splitting hairs with the brainiac's in your local govt, but what about plated bullets at your range?

As you know, a plated bullet is constructed differently than a jacketed bullet, and more than a few loading manuals treat the plated bullet almost the same as a lead bullet.

Question is, could a plated bullet be used without the local socialists going ape?

Unkel Gilbey

Powderman · May 2, 2002, 03:20 PM

No, no, no, no!!!!!

Do NOT use lead in your factory Glock barrel!!!!!

It may seem like it does not leave lead--but it does, believe me. It is a kB waiting to happen.

Invest a little money into an aftermarket Glock barrel with conventional rifling. Then, fire all the lead you want. Doesn't have to be hard-cast either.

Chemistry · May 4, 2002, 08:35 PM

Agree with Gilbey, in that you should see if plated bullets are allowed.

If not, then Oregon Trail's excellent Lasercast bullets are the best unjacketed lead bullets I have ever used. Their alloy gives a hard bullet, with excellent lubricity.

When they say they have a "no leading" guarantee, they mean it. I push their 122 grain 9 mm bullet to 1350 fps in my Glock 31, and have yet to see any leading, even with the polygonal rifling.

Powderman · May 5, 2002, 01:09 AM

Guys, I hate to be a spoil sport, but I gotta tell you----

Glock warns specifically against using lead bullets in their factory barrels for a reason.

The lead bullet has a much lower coefficient of friction than jacketed bullets do. Meaning this--two things happen when you fire a hard cast bullet at normal pistol velocities.

One, the bullet will not swage out, or obturate within the bore. You then have high temperature gas--superheated gas--that will leak and cut between the bearing surface of the bore and the bearing surface of the bullet. This will soften the lead, and turn some of the lead into a plasma that WILL adhere like crazy to the bore.

Second, the Glock polygonal rifling is smooth. It leaves the finished bore with a glass-smooth finish. VERY smooth. So smooth, in fact, that when you fire a lead bullet, at first the rifling WILL NOT ACCEPT THE BULLET. IT WILL INSTEAD SKID ACROSS THE LANDS.
This, combined with the heating caused by the flame cutting WILL leave lead in your bore.

This is not a big problem with a low pressure cartridge like the .45 ACP--in a NORMAL barrel. When you talk about 9mm, .40 SW and 10mm, you are asking for fireworks.

So, spend a little extra money--or maybe even a little less--and get some jacketed bullets.

www.gibrass.com

has milsurp 9mm and 230 grain ball.

www.montanagoldbullets.com

had good quality, cheap .40 bullets of different weights.

Again, I STRONGLY urge you--DON'T FIRE LEAD IN THAT GLOCK BARREL!!!

For good aftermarket barrels, check out:

www.brownells.com

They even have Bar-Sto barrels for the Glock!!

Please---DO NOT FIRE LEAD BULLETS IN A GLOCK BARREL IN ANY CALIBER!!!

Yours,

Powderman (who also happens to be a certified Glock armorer.)

swabjocky · May 5, 2002, 09:51 PM

Guys, you should listen to Powderman.I blew up my model 27 glock 3 times before seeing the light.all kinds of things go through your mind when that gun blows the bottom out of the mag.I had to drag a magnet around the shootin range floor to get the parts to my glock.after the third time I bought an aftermarket barrel.worked fine after that.

swab

LONGRIFLE30 · May 10, 2002, 02:48 AM

MasterBlaster, if someone "blew-up" a Glock it was the powder charge and not the bullet. I have a Mod. 20 in 10mm, have shot many factory leads and my own lead loads with no pressure or leading problems. ANY load that would "blow-up" a Glock would certainly kill the shooter with any less (any other) handgun. The trick to getting a polygonal rifled barrel to shoot lead bullets well is about the same as the micro-groove in a rifle-it needs to be .001-.002" larger than the barrel-groove diameter. the fellow who "blew-up" a glock 3 times was not too smart before the accidents. In my Mod. 20., I load 200 grain XTP's to 1300 Fps, and some 135 HP's to over 1700+ FPS, no ill-efects to date other than shorter brass life. Check out the Lee "Modern Reloading" book. I have seen info for the 9mm Hertinberger which states for sub-machine guns and Glocks ONLY. I shoot 155 grain leads to 1400 FPS with no leading, via the right alloy, and to my knowledge, the gun hasn't "blown-up". All you guys, quit "READING" and start shooting the gun(s) you want to disclaim. aNYONE ON HERE RELOAD AND OR CAST FOR THE gLOCKS, FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME FOR REAL EXPERIENCE INSTEAD OF ARMCHAIR GUESSES. LEE

LONGRIFLE30 · May 10, 2002, 03:09 AM

Man, speaking of fireworks, I got them back in '96 when I hit a 90# doe in the shoulder with a 205 GR. 10mm slug(all lead). She stopped and was dead before I got there. That same load clocked 1245 FPS about 15' from the muzzle, no leading and accuracy was appearently O.K. She was almost 60 yards. I also saw on another site that one of the Mandrell sisters hit and killed a Russian hog down in Graham Texas back in '93? She was also using a Glock Mod. 20. That, in my book is cool, a country singer and a girl at that busting a hog in my neck of the woods with the same gun I have.

Chemistry · May 11, 2002, 11:35 PM

There is nothing wrong with using unjacketed lead in combination with the Glock's polygonal rifling, provided that you select an alloy of the correct hardness.

Too soft of an alloy, and as stated above, the polygonal rifling will easily rip up the bullet, and you will get nasty amounts of leading.

Too hard of an alloy, and the bullet does not expand properly to seal off the gasses. This results in hot gas eroding the side of the bullet, and depositing a good amount of lead in the barrel.

Oregon Trail's excellent Laser Cast bullets have the ideal hardness, and a higher degree of lubricity. I get absolutely zero leading in my Glock 31 and Glock 17.

IMHO, they are the absolute best commercially available unjacketed lead bullet.

Pigshooter · May 13, 2002, 12:23 PM

There is a simple formula for calculating optimal pressure for sufficient obturation based on hardness. I wish I could remember off the top of my head, but I believe BHN 18 requires 35kpsi, which is pretty stout for a 9mm.

I would just get a different barrel for use at your range.

444 · May 13, 2002, 12:45 PM

I once had a Glock 21, and currently own a Glock 17. I never read the book, so I shot hundreds of cast lead bullets out of them both with no ill effects. 99% of all the bullets that I shoot through my handguns are cast lead. However, after finding out, I discontinued the practice in the Glock. I did buy a new barrel for my Glock 17 that has conventional rifling.

hitnthexring · May 13, 2002, 01:10 PM

Long before warnings about firing lead bullets in polygon rifling, I stopped doing it because it makes a mess in the slide (firing pin channel, etc. The savings isn't that much - certainly not enough for the risk of KB.

Master Blaster · May 13, 2002, 02:04 PM

Quote:

There is a simple formula for calculating optimal pressure for sufficient obturation based on hardness. I wish I could remember off the top of my head, but I believe BHN 18 requires 35kpsi, which is pretty stout for a 9mm.

End Quote

I shoot the same hardness of 18 in my .45 ACP and I'm sure it does not require 35,000 psi to obdurate in my .45 barrel else my 4.0 grains of titegroup would blow up all my 1911s and all those of the bullseye competitors at the club.
Or my accuracy would be very poor and I would have alot of leading in my .45 barrel. My accuracy is excellent and my leading almost non-exsistant

Also Jacketed bullets are brinell 18-22 I was told by the caster who makes the bullets, so jacketed bullets would be too dangerous to use in my glocks as well at 35,000-42,000 psi.

The problem with glocks and lead was very obvious when I used commercial lead ammo. The soft swaged bullets left two noticible rings of lead in the barrel which obscured the rifling near the muzzle and the chamber after 25 rounds!!!

Denny Hansen · May 13, 2002, 02:14 PM

Just a suggestion, but rather than take a chance shooting lead in a factory Glock barrel, drop in an aftermarket barrel when shooting lead and save the Glock barrel for jacketed stuff. Brownells (and probably others) has standard rifled barrels available which will safely shoot lead and jacketed fodder.

Powderman · May 14, 2002, 02:44 PM

Thank you, LongRifle, for the attack.

"Quit reading, and start shooting"?

I put at least 2-300 rounds per month through my G22 and G27. How about you?

"Real experience, instead of armchair guesses"?

Well, I guess 34 years of shooting handguns doesn't qualify, does it?

Neither do a few years of teaching pistolcraft in the Army, or on two different police departments, I guess.

Also, concerning "real experience", I don't hunt with my Glock.

I don't do competition with my Glock, either.

There are only two things my Glock is aimed at on a regular basis--paper targets, and people. I carry my Glock as a duty weapon. I have learned to trust it and my life depends on it.

Oh, and by the way, the "armchair guesses" were based on--well, it must be misinformation and downright lies--the stuff I learned from the folks direct from Smyrna, GA, who make a living by traveling the United States and teaching the Glock Handgun.

I have a certificate from those guys--worthless paper, I guess--that says "Certified Glock Armorer" on it.

You go ahead and cast all the bullets you want.

Me, I won't try to be smarter than the guys who MAKE the pistol--I'll just load jacketed for the factory barrel, and get an aftermarket for cast.

Guess I'm just a dumb butt, huh?

April 30, 2002, 10:30 AM	#1
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Lead reloads for a Glock 9mm Well I have found a load that works and does not foul the polygonal rifling at all. 4.0 gr W231, WSP and using a Russell LRN. The key is the bullet its made by a caster which my club buys from, The secret is the Brinell 18 hardness of the bullet, its similar to a jacketed bullet. Sorry no Jacketed at our club due to a Zoning restriction, It was cop killer bullet year that year when the building was enlarged, and the brain trust that turned out for the zoning hearing included the Deputy Attorney General, who was worried we would shoot them thar kop killer bullets at our range, so No jacketed was put in the zoning variance.

May 2, 2002, 12:12 PM	#2
Unkel Gilbey Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 1999 Location: Danby, Vermont Posts: 349	Hmmmm... I had always suspected that a really hard lead bullet would get the job done in the Glock. I wonder if a gas check would also help out if bullets of sufficient hardness couldn't be had? Here's another question. I know that it would be splitting hairs with the brainiac's in your local govt, but what about plated bullets at your range? As you know, a plated bullet is constructed differently than a jacketed bullet, and more than a few loading manuals treat the plated bullet almost the same as a lead bullet. Question is, could a plated bullet be used without the local socialists going ape? Unkel Gilbey

May 2, 2002, 03:20 PM	#3
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	No, no, no, no!!!!! Do NOT use lead in your factory Glock barrel!!!!! It may seem like it does not leave lead--but it does, believe me. It is a kB waiting to happen. Invest a little money into an aftermarket Glock barrel with conventional rifling. Then, fire all the lead you want. Doesn't have to be hard-cast either. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

May 5, 2002, 01:09 AM	#5
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Guys, I hate to be a spoil sport, but I gotta tell you---- Glock warns specifically against using lead bullets in their factory barrels for a reason. The lead bullet has a much lower coefficient of friction than jacketed bullets do. Meaning this--two things happen when you fire a hard cast bullet at normal pistol velocities. One, the bullet will not swage out, or obturate within the bore. You then have high temperature gas--superheated gas--that will leak and cut between the bearing surface of the bore and the bearing surface of the bullet. This will soften the lead, and turn some of the lead into a plasma that WILL adhere like crazy to the bore. Second, the Glock polygonal rifling is smooth. It leaves the finished bore with a glass-smooth finish. VERY smooth. So smooth, in fact, that when you fire a lead bullet, at first the rifling WILL NOT ACCEPT THE BULLET. IT WILL INSTEAD SKID ACROSS THE LANDS. This, combined with the heating caused by the flame cutting WILL leave lead in your bore. This is not a big problem with a low pressure cartridge like the .45 ACP--in a NORMAL barrel. When you talk about 9mm, .40 SW and 10mm, you are asking for fireworks. So, spend a little extra money--or maybe even a little less--and get some jacketed bullets. www.gibrass.com has milsurp 9mm and 230 grain ball. www.montanagoldbullets.com had good quality, cheap .40 bullets of different weights. Again, I STRONGLY urge you--DON'T FIRE LEAD IN THAT GLOCK BARREL!!! For good aftermarket barrels, check out: www.brownells.com They even have Bar-Sto barrels for the Glock!! Please---DO NOT FIRE LEAD BULLETS IN A GLOCK BARREL IN ANY CALIBER!!! Yours, Powderman (who also happens to be a certified Glock armorer.) __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

May 5, 2002, 09:51 PM	#6
swabjocky Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2001 Location: upstate sc Posts: 384	glock and lead Guys, you should listen to Powderman.I blew up my model 27 glock 3 times before seeing the light.all kinds of things go through your mind when that gun blows the bottom out of the mag.I had to drag a magnet around the shootin range floor to get the parts to my glock.after the third time I bought an aftermarket barrel.worked fine after that. swab

May 4, 2002, 08:35 PM	#4
Chemistry Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2001 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 158	Agree with Gilbey, in that you should see if plated bullets are allowed. If not, then Oregon Trail's excellent Lasercast bullets are the best unjacketed lead bullets I have ever used. Their alloy gives a hard bullet, with excellent lubricity. When they say they have a "no leading" guarantee, they mean it. I push their 122 grain 9 mm bullet to 1350 fps in my Glock 31, and have yet to see any leading, even with the polygonal rifling.

May 10, 2002, 02:48 AM	#7
LONGRIFLE30 Member Join Date: February 16, 2002 Location: Wichita Falls,TX. Posts: 49	MasterBlaster, if someone "blew-up" a Glock it was the powder charge and not the bullet. I have a Mod. 20 in 10mm, have shot many factory leads and my own lead loads with no pressure or leading problems. ANY load that would "blow-up" a Glock would certainly kill the shooter with any less (any other) handgun. The trick to getting a polygonal rifled barrel to shoot lead bullets well is about the same as the micro-groove in a rifle-it needs to be .001-.002" larger than the barrel-groove diameter. the fellow who "blew-up" a glock 3 times was not too smart before the accidents. In my Mod. 20., I load 200 grain XTP's to 1300 Fps, and some 135 HP's to over 1700+ FPS, no ill-efects to date other than shorter brass life. Check out the Lee "Modern Reloading" book. I have seen info for the 9mm Hertinberger which states for sub-machine guns and Glocks ONLY. I shoot 155 grain leads to 1400 FPS with no leading, via the right alloy, and to my knowledge, the gun hasn't "blown-up". All you guys, quit "READING" and start shooting the gun(s) you want to disclaim. aNYONE ON HERE RELOAD AND OR CAST FOR THE gLOCKS, FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME FOR REAL EXPERIENCE INSTEAD OF ARMCHAIR GUESSES. LEE

May 10, 2002, 03:09 AM	#8
LONGRIFLE30 Member Join Date: February 16, 2002 Location: Wichita Falls,TX. Posts: 49	Man, speaking of fireworks, I got them back in '96 when I hit a 90# doe in the shoulder with a 205 GR. 10mm slug(all lead). She stopped and was dead before I got there. That same load clocked 1245 FPS about 15' from the muzzle, no leading and accuracy was appearently O.K. She was almost 60 yards. I also saw on another site that one of the Mandrell sisters hit and killed a Russian hog down in Graham Texas back in '93? She was also using a Glock Mod. 20. That, in my book is cool, a country singer and a girl at that busting a hog in my neck of the woods with the same gun I have.

May 11, 2002, 11:35 PM	#9
Chemistry Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2001 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 158	There is nothing wrong with using unjacketed lead in combination with the Glock's polygonal rifling, provided that you select an alloy of the correct hardness. Too soft of an alloy, and as stated above, the polygonal rifling will easily rip up the bullet, and you will get nasty amounts of leading. Too hard of an alloy, and the bullet does not expand properly to seal off the gasses. This results in hot gas eroding the side of the bullet, and depositing a good amount of lead in the barrel. Oregon Trail's excellent Laser Cast bullets have the ideal hardness, and a higher degree of lubricity. I get absolutely zero leading in my Glock 31 and Glock 17. IMHO, they are the absolute best commercially available unjacketed lead bullet.

May 13, 2002, 12:23 PM	#10
Pigshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Location: Euless, TX Posts: 334	There is a simple formula for calculating optimal pressure for sufficient obturation based on hardness. I wish I could remember off the top of my head, but I believe BHN 18 requires 35kpsi, which is pretty stout for a 9mm. I would just get a different barrel for use at your range.

May 13, 2002, 12:45 PM	#11
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	I once had a Glock 21, and currently own a Glock 17. I never read the book, so I shot hundreds of cast lead bullets out of them both with no ill effects. 99% of all the bullets that I shoot through my handguns are cast lead. However, after finding out, I discontinued the practice in the Glock. I did buy a new barrel for my Glock 17 that has conventional rifling. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

May 13, 2002, 01:10 PM	#12
hitnthexring Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2002 Posts: 223	Long before warnings about firing lead bullets in polygon rifling, I stopped doing it because it makes a mess in the slide (firing pin channel, etc. The savings isn't that much - certainly not enough for the risk of KB.

May 13, 2002, 02:04 PM	#13
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Quote: There is a simple formula for calculating optimal pressure for sufficient obturation based on hardness. I wish I could remember off the top of my head, but I believe BHN 18 requires 35kpsi, which is pretty stout for a 9mm. End Quote I shoot the same hardness of 18 in my .45 ACP and I'm sure it does not require 35,000 psi to obdurate in my .45 barrel else my 4.0 grains of titegroup would blow up all my 1911s and all those of the bullseye competitors at the club. Or my accuracy would be very poor and I would have alot of leading in my .45 barrel. My accuracy is excellent and my leading almost non-exsistant Also Jacketed bullets are brinell 18-22 I was told by the caster who makes the bullets, so jacketed bullets would be too dangerous to use in my glocks as well at 35,000-42,000 psi. The problem with glocks and lead was very obvious when I used commercial lead ammo. The soft swaged bullets left two noticible rings of lead in the barrel which obscured the rifling near the muzzle and the chamber after 25 rounds!!!

May 13, 2002, 02:14 PM	#14
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Just a suggestion, but rather than take a chance shooting lead in a factory Glock barrel, drop in an aftermarket barrel when shooting lead and save the Glock barrel for jacketed stuff. Brownells (and probably others) has standard rifled barrels available which will safely shoot lead and jacketed fodder. __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

May 14, 2002, 02:44 PM	#15
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Thank you, LongRifle, for the attack. "Quit reading, and start shooting"? I put at least 2-300 rounds per month through my G22 and G27. How about you? "Real experience, instead of armchair guesses"? Well, I guess 34 years of shooting handguns doesn't qualify, does it? Neither do a few years of teaching pistolcraft in the Army, or on two different police departments, I guess. Also, concerning "real experience", I don't hunt with my Glock. I don't do competition with my Glock, either. There are only two things my Glock is aimed at on a regular basis--paper targets, and people. I carry my Glock as a duty weapon. I have learned to trust it and my life depends on it. Oh, and by the way, the "armchair guesses" were based on--well, it must be misinformation and downright lies--the stuff I learned from the folks direct from Smyrna, GA, who make a living by traveling the United States and teaching the Glock Handgun. I have a certificate from those guys--worthless paper, I guess--that says "Certified Glock Armorer" on it. You go ahead and cast all the bullets you want. Me, I won't try to be smarter than the guys who MAKE the pistol--I'll just load jacketed for the factory barrel, and get an aftermarket for cast. Guess I'm just a dumb butt, huh? __________________ Hiding in plain sight...