RSO carries L&L and open on range

fishuntr · August 17, 2009, 09:51 PM

I thought I knew the answer to this. NO! I have never seen this done at any Law Enforcement range. I understand unlikely but possible need for RSO to be armed at a range open to the public. I've even carried concealed on a range where I was the RSO. It seems to me bad PR, since the range rules explicitely do not allow loaded firearm away from firing line. This RSO is extremely competant. Am I just an old guy with outdated standards?

fastforty · August 17, 2009, 10:41 PM

Just look at it this way: He's got your back, and both sides, while you're distracted and drooling over your hobby.

Bad PR? Only if there's a lotta Lefties visiting the range, & they can just swoon & keel over for all I care.

All of the ranges that I've worked on *insist* that all range officer's are hot at all times while on the premises. Makes me feel real skittish to have to go cold at a range that I'm not working at.

Dr. Strangelove · August 18, 2009, 01:48 AM

If the RSO isn't following the rules, how can they expect anyone else to? That's bad form on the part of the RSO, and worse for the range.

**JohnKSa** · August 18, 2009, 01:54 AM

The way I see it the RSO is the "police" for the range. Just like police can carry where the rules say the general citizenry can't, I figure the RSO should be able to carry where the customers can't.

Another way to look at it would be like saying that a gun shop that doesn't allow the customers to carry guns shouldn't allow the employees to carry either. I think that if the shop owner/operator wants to ban customer carry but allow employee carry it's his decision. The idea that all his rules have to apply equally to both customers and employees doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Seems to me that if the range owner/operator designates an RSO and says he can carry there's not much basis for saying he shouldn't because of the range rules. The range owner/operator makes the rules.

armsmaster270 · August 18, 2009, 03:33 AM

JohnKSa puts it in its proper perspective. Anywhere there are that many unloaded guns there has to be someone able to protect them and the shooters.

azredhawk44 · August 18, 2009, 09:27 AM

There are different ranges, with different sets of SOP's.

I took my NRA RSO class earlier this year and there isn't a guideline for or against it in the NRA materials.

When I run a line as an instructor for the Appleseed program, we have a very strict policy of no sidearms at all, even on instructors, since the class is so inexpensive and our insurance policy was written to allow us to keep it inexpensive.

When I work as RSO at one of the ranges here in town, however, the SOP at that range is to open carry.

There's also different SOP's for the shooters at the line. At Ben Avery, for instance, it's acceptable to carry a holstered and hot firearm from the car to your bench, and to keep it holstered rather than slide locked back on the table during trips down range to check targets during cease fire. The Ben Avery RSO's are prohibited from carrying firearms. At Usery Pass, though, there's no hot firearms allowed at all (except RSO's).

It's all based on decisions made by the head Rangemaster or the policy committee that puts together the range Standard Operating Procedures, and largely focuses around insurance.

fishuntr · August 18, 2009, 03:03 PM

Thanks for the replies. I guess this is not as clearcut as I thought. Our range is a non profit, open to the public and we have a range comittee. We'll take this up at our next meeting. This is not something that I have strong feelings about. I just wanted to know what other ranges have as a policy.

Lefty?? I'm a lefty fastforty.

Oh, did you mean politics? FYI we are a 100% NRA club; we have 14 NRA Certified Instructors and RSO's including me. Most of us are proud members of the "vast right wing conspiracy"

Wagonman · August 18, 2009, 04:31 PM

I would think that the RSO should be, you aren't a patron you are charged with ensuring safety.

Edward429451 · August 18, 2009, 06:17 PM

I think the RSO packing is a PR statement. It ID's him as an authority and as the one watching my back and hardware whilst I am downrange changing targets. I would feel better seeing him hot rather than following the rules of the patrons...that is, if I went to a supervised range!

langenc · August 19, 2009, 01:25 PM

If I was working as described id be carrying as described.

Tamara · August 21, 2009, 06:03 AM

It seems to me that a holster is just about the safest place for a loaded gun. I have never in my entire life seen or heard of a holstered gun jumping out of the holster to wreak havoc. I just don't see what the big deal is.

fishuntr · August 21, 2009, 09:35 AM

Hi Tamara; Nobody said it was a big deal, and a holster is indeed a safe place to carry. The question was whether a RSO should carry L&L on the range. The responses all indicate that many ranges do allow this.
I appreciate all the responses and it seems we just need to change the wording on all our signs is all.

Tamara · August 21, 2009, 09:52 AM

Sorry, it was kind of a hot topic with me recently.

QBall45 · August 25, 2009, 05:24 AM

Can't imagine being a RSO charged with safety and security for range patrons and their shootin irons and not be allowed to carry a sidearm. As for locked&loaded...there is no other reason to be carrying. As for open vs concealed? The RSO is the on duty range cop. It really should be open carryed. Just my opinion in training to become a minnesota dnr firearms instructor.

jjbduke2004 · August 25, 2009, 09:08 AM

Someone mentioned that the NRA materials were silent on the issue. Well unless the NRA practices do as I say not as I do, the NRA is certainly OK with RSOs carrying as their own redshirts at the Headquarters Range in Fairfax are carrying*.

I have also seen RSOs at the now-defunct Town of Huntington Range (Suffolk County, NY) carrying openly. They even had police style badges that identified them as town range officers.

I also noted range officers at Hap Baker (Carroll County, MD public range) openly carrying

*Disclaimer: I was only there once.

azredhawk44 · August 25, 2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Someone mentioned that the NRA materials were silent on the issue. Well unless the NRA practices do as I say not as I do, the NRA is certainly OK with RSOs carrying as their own redshirts at the Headquarters Range in Fairfax are carrying*.

The NRA materials are silent for good reason.

They neither endorse nor discourage the practice of RSO's carrying, because it is 100% up to the range safety policy and has nothing at all to do with any perceived NRA policy or bias.

This isn't the NRA practicing "do as I say not as I do."

It's the NRA saying "we really don't care. What suits some folks may not suit others."

fishuntr · September 1, 2009, 05:05 PM

Consider me chastised and educated. We had a range committee meeting last week, and I showed them the results of this thread. There was little discussion. The committee voted that the RSO, only the RSO working the line, is authorized to carry either open or concealed. We commonly have 3 to 10 certified instructors and RSO's at our range working on one project or another.

On another note, totally unrelated to this thread, we held a Home Firearms Safety class and a Basic Pistol class last weekend at our range and taught 12 eager students. We all really enjoyed it.
Thanks for all the input.

August 17, 2009, 09:51 PM	#1
fishuntr Junior Member Join Date: August 17, 2009 Location: So Cal High Desert Posts: 7	RSO carries L&L and open on range I thought I knew the answer to this. NO! I have never seen this done at any Law Enforcement range. I understand unlikely but possible need for RSO to be armed at a range open to the public. I've even carried concealed on a range where I was the RSO. It seems to me bad PR, since the range rules explicitely do not allow loaded firearm away from firing line. This RSO is extremely competant. Am I just an old guy with outdated standards?

August 17, 2009, 10:41 PM	#2
fastforty Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: In a kornfield in kalifornia Posts: 1,161	Just look at it this way: He's got your back, and both sides, while you're distracted and drooling over your hobby. Bad PR? Only if there's a lotta Lefties visiting the range, & they can just swoon & keel over for all I care. All of the ranges that I've worked on insist that all range officer's are hot at all times while on the premises. Makes me feel real skittish to have to go cold at a range that I'm not working at. __________________ When Banjos are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Banjos The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.

August 18, 2009, 01:48 AM	#3
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	Nope If the RSO isn't following the rules, how can they expect anyone else to? That's bad form on the part of the RSO, and worse for the range.

August 18, 2009, 01:54 AM	#4
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,972	The way I see it the RSO is the "police" for the range. Just like police can carry where the rules say the general citizenry can't, I figure the RSO should be able to carry where the customers can't. Another way to look at it would be like saying that a gun shop that doesn't allow the customers to carry guns shouldn't allow the employees to carry either. I think that if the shop owner/operator wants to ban customer carry but allow employee carry it's his decision. The idea that all his rules have to apply equally to both customers and employees doesn't make any sense at all to me. Seems to me that if the range owner/operator designates an RSO and says he can carry there's not much basis for saying he shouldn't because of the range rules. The range owner/operator makes the rules. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

August 18, 2009, 03:33 AM	#5
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	JohnKSa puts it in its proper perspective. Anywhere there are that many unloaded guns there has to be someone able to protect them and the shooters. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

August 18, 2009, 09:27 AM	#6
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	There are different ranges, with different sets of SOP's. I took my NRA RSO class earlier this year and there isn't a guideline for or against it in the NRA materials. When I run a line as an instructor for the Appleseed program, we have a very strict policy of no sidearms at all, even on instructors, since the class is so inexpensive and our insurance policy was written to allow us to keep it inexpensive. When I work as RSO at one of the ranges here in town, however, the SOP at that range is to open carry. There's also different SOP's for the shooters at the line. At Ben Avery, for instance, it's acceptable to carry a holstered and hot firearm from the car to your bench, and to keep it holstered rather than slide locked back on the table during trips down range to check targets during cease fire. The Ben Avery RSO's are prohibited from carrying firearms. At Usery Pass, though, there's no hot firearms allowed at all (except RSO's). It's all based on decisions made by the head Rangemaster or the policy committee that puts together the range Standard Operating Procedures, and largely focuses around insurance.

August 18, 2009, 03:03 PM	#7
fishuntr Junior Member Join Date: August 17, 2009 Location: So Cal High Desert Posts: 7	Thanks for the replies. I guess this is not as clearcut as I thought. Our range is a non profit, open to the public and we have a range comittee. We'll take this up at our next meeting. This is not something that I have strong feelings about. I just wanted to know what other ranges have as a policy. Lefty?? I'm a lefty fastforty. Oh, did you mean politics? FYI we are a 100% NRA club; we have 14 NRA Certified Instructors and RSO's including me. Most of us are proud members of the "vast right wing conspiracy"

August 18, 2009, 04:31 PM	#8
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	I would think that the RSO should be, you aren't a patron you are charged with ensuring safety.

August 18, 2009, 06:17 PM	#9
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I think the RSO packing is a PR statement. It ID's him as an authority and as the one watching my back and hardware whilst I am downrange changing targets. I would feel better seeing him hot rather than following the rules of the patrons...that is, if I went to a supervised range!

August 19, 2009, 01:25 PM	#10
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	If I was working as described id be carrying as described.

August 21, 2009, 06:03 AM	#11
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	It seems to me that a holster is just about the safest place for a loaded gun. I have never in my entire life seen or heard of a holstered gun jumping out of the holster to wreak havoc. I just don't see what the big deal is. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

August 21, 2009, 09:35 AM	#12
fishuntr Junior Member Join Date: August 17, 2009 Location: So Cal High Desert Posts: 7	Hi Tamara; Nobody said it was a big deal, and a holster is indeed a safe place to carry. The question was whether a RSO should carry L&L on the range. The responses all indicate that many ranges do allow this. I appreciate all the responses and it seems we just need to change the wording on all our signs is all.

August 21, 2009, 09:52 AM	#13
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Sorry, it was kind of a hot topic with me recently. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

August 25, 2009, 05:24 AM	#14
QBall45 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: South Central Minnesota Posts: 584	Can't imagine being a RSO charged with safety and security for range patrons and their shootin irons and not be allowed to carry a sidearm. As for locked&loaded...there is no other reason to be carrying. As for open vs concealed? The RSO is the on duty range cop. It really should be open carryed. Just my opinion in training to become a minnesota dnr firearms instructor.

August 25, 2009, 09:08 AM	#15
jjbduke2004 Junior Member Join Date: May 17, 2009 Posts: 8	NRA Range Someone mentioned that the NRA materials were silent on the issue. Well unless the NRA practices do as I say not as I do, the NRA is certainly OK with RSOs carrying as their own redshirts at the Headquarters Range in Fairfax are carrying. I have also seen RSOs at the now-defunct Town of Huntington Range (Suffolk County, NY) carrying openly. They even had police style badges that identified them as town range officers. I also noted range officers at Hap Baker (Carroll County, MD public range) openly carrying Disclaimer: I was only there once.

September 1, 2009, 05:05 PM	#17
fishuntr Junior Member Join Date: August 17, 2009 Location: So Cal High Desert Posts: 7	Consider me chastised and educated. We had a range committee meeting last week, and I showed them the results of this thread. There was little discussion. The committee voted that the RSO, only the RSO working the line, is authorized to carry either open or concealed. We commonly have 3 to 10 certified instructors and RSO's at our range working on one project or another. On another note, totally unrelated to this thread, we held a Home Firearms Safety class and a Basic Pistol class last weekend at our range and taught 12 eager students. We all really enjoyed it. Thanks for all the input.