"Case color"

Hardcase · January 3, 2011, 11:46 AM

I picked up a .357 Cimarron Model P last night for what I thought was a pretty good price, $230. I agonized between it and a New Vaquero, but my new year's resolution was to try really hard to not introduce any new calibers this year, so I passed on the .45LC.

Anyway, the Cimarron, a Uberti gun, is in great shape, with a 4.75" barrel and an extra set of Gunfighter grips. But the imitation case colors are quite faded on one side of the frame and maybe half gone on the other. Now, it's not a huge deal to me because the price was right and it's not exactly a collector's gun. But is there a way to redo the coloring on the frame that won't break the bank or require a degree in chemistry?

Oh yeah, I know the rule: pictures or it didn't happen. I'll post 'em tonight. And if the mercury breaks 30 this week, I might even shoot it!

rdstrain49 · January 3, 2011, 12:21 PM

I don't even remember what 30 degrees feels

Scorch · January 3, 2011, 12:58 PM

Quote:

is there a way to redo the coloring on the frame that won't break the bank or require a degree in chemistry?

Color case hardening is not just a coloring process, it is a heat treatment process. Re-doing the color case hardening requires complete disassembly of the firearm, barrel, screws, pins, etc, right down to the frame. The parts to be heat reated are wrapped in metal foil or placed in a crucible, covered with bone pieces or charcoal, then put in an oven for heating. There is another process that requires the parts to be heated, then quenched in ferrocyanate, but due to the chemicals used it has fallen into disuse.

There are several commercial outfits that do color case hardening, be it bone or charcoal process. There are no current commercial heat treaters that use the old cyanate process, as far as I know.

SG29736 · January 3, 2011, 01:35 PM

Color case hardening is not just a coloring process, it is a heat treatment process.

True. But a lot of the Colt clones use other processes to make it look like the gun was color case hardened. I don't know who can re do those kinds of treatments. Mark

oneounceload · January 3, 2011, 01:39 PM

The alternative method, IIRC, uses cyanide to replicate the colors.

As for having it done, you might try asking Doug Turnbull's group - they are the best at it

Hardcase · January 3, 2011, 01:42 PM

Yes, the "case coloring" on my gun is just cosmetic.

horseman308 · January 3, 2011, 02:02 PM

Turnbull once quoted me about $400 to CCH the receiver on a Ruger #1. Not a bad price for the right gun, but I don't think I'd want to spend more money on redoing something cosmetic than I did on the gun itself.

Hardcase · January 3, 2011, 02:14 PM

After poking around a little bit, I see that it's one of those processes that comes out a whole lot easier and cheaper when there are a whole bunch to do at once. It looks a little out of the reach of li'l ol' me on one at a time basis.

horseman308, you're right, spending twice the price of the gun for the work isn't my cup of tea.

By the way, I saw a couple of ~1900-1910 Colt SAAs at Cabelas the other day that Doug Turnbull restored. Gorgeous. And spendy. But gorgeous, just the same. And in the next cabinet over they had the most beautiful Henry .44 rimfire rifle with a beautifully engraved receiver and lovely persimmon stock. Just $81,000. My wife said no.

Jim Watson · January 3, 2011, 02:34 PM

Just as well, Walmart seldom ever has .44 Henry Flat ammo on sale.

denster · January 3, 2011, 03:16 PM

Uberti and Pietta still color their frames using cyanide which is OK but not as pretty as true bone/charcoal color case. Classic firearms in Illinois does a great job of true bone charcoal color case and a single action army would be under $200 with postage both ways.

Noz · January 3, 2011, 03:40 PM

I'd strip it with Naval Jelly and blue it.

Jim Watson · January 3, 2011, 03:51 PM

I'd leave it alone and tell tall tales about all the places I had carried it to wear that much finish off.

Hardcase · January 3, 2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

I'd leave it alone and tell tall tales about all the places I had carried it to wear that much finish off.

I'll start notching the grips tonight

bighead46 · January 3, 2011, 04:36 PM

There's a book called "Double Guns" on redoing side by side shotguns. The author was Hughes or Haines (can't remember) but he gave a formula on color case hardening. If I recall, all case hardening was sort of grayish hundreds of years ago but when the part was quenched some oils etc added color that folks liked and then the color case hardening got going. In any event try asking around on the net in shotgun forums- someone may have or remember the book.

denster · January 3, 2011, 09:17 PM

The methodology for bone/charcoal case hardening is not complex but the required equipment is generally outside the realm of the hobbyiest.
This is how it is done. The well polished parts are packed in a curcible with a 50/50 mix of charred bone and wood charcoal. The cruciblle then goes into a heat treat oven at 1500deg F for about 40 minutes. The parts are then dropped into a water quench that has an aerator that bubbles up the water. Once cooled the parts are dried and oiled. That's all there is to it but it does require some serious equipment.

Hardcase · January 3, 2011, 10:17 PM

I know how the traditional case hardening is done and I definitely agree that it's outside of my comfort zone, if not ability.

In the end, I'm pretty doggone happy with what I've got.

Hardcase · January 3, 2011, 10:22 PM

I just had a thought - I have a good friend who has a couple of kilns that he fires glass in. I know that they'll go to 1500 F and above. Now it's got me wondering...

I may have to do some research and buy a couple of beat up old frames to experiment with. Oh joy, another project.

twhidd · January 3, 2011, 10:27 PM

You better post pictures if you do.

oneounceload · January 3, 2011, 10:50 PM

What you have to be careful about is warping the frame when you heat it to that temperature - most old SxS shotguns needed to be filed some more to true them up. You also don't want to mess up the heat treatment by doing it wrong

Hardcase · January 4, 2011, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneounceload

What you have to be careful about is warping the frame when you heat it to that temperature - most old SxS shotguns needed to be filed some more to true them up. You also don't want to mess up the heat treatment by doing it wrong

For sure. I have plenty of research to do, I guess. If I didn't have this stupid job, why think of all the things that I could get done!

bighead46 · January 4, 2011, 02:47 PM

Actually I think the gun looks pretty good just the way it is. If you start looking at big numbers maybe it would be best to nickel plate it.

Frontier · January 4, 2011, 02:58 PM

Hardcase, I'd leave it. That gun's just starting to get a bit of character!

There is a guy does the big gun shows over here and sells a case hardening compound - don't know whether it's liquid, paste or solid but I seem to think it's only a few bucks.

Frontier

oneounceload · January 4, 2011, 03:05 PM

Quote:

case hardening compound

It might be a coloring effect for a few bucks, but it isn't a hardener - that comes from heat.

denster · January 4, 2011, 03:27 PM

That product is probably Kasenite. It is for case hardening but not in color. Case hardening is heating low carbon steel coated with a high carbon content material such as charcoal or kasenite so that the surface absorbes carbon a few thousandths deep. Quenching from the critical temperature hardens the skin of the part leaving the interior softer. This process does not impart colors but leaves the surface a gray color.
Case hardening in color requires the specific types of high carbon material and the quenching bath has to be aerated which imparts a differential rate of cooling trapping the colors.

mrappe · January 4, 2011, 04:11 PM

Case Coloring comes from the heat treating processes as others have said Either from the bone and charcoal method or others but they are all semi-permant in that they don't just wash off with a chemical. I used to have one of the original Ruger Vaqueros and they only had a color treatment put on top of the steel. I was able to disolve it off uing a chemical (this was to make the gun look 'aged' long before you could buy them that way). As far as I know the Italian copies use arsenic to harden the heat treated metal. This works but is not as good as the method that Colt etc used which is packing the reciever in a combination of bone and other organics into a metal container and heating and cooling it in a precise way. The only other factory that uses that method that I know of is USFA which makes a clone that looks as good as the Colts. You can case color steel by using things like kasenite but it is made for hardning and does not give a results that is predictable as far as coloring.

January 3, 2011, 01:42 PM	#6
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	Yes, the "case coloring" on my gun is just cosmetic. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

January 3, 2011, 02:02 PM	#7
horseman308 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2009 Location: Maryland Posts: 526	Turnbull once quoted me about $400 to CCH the receiver on a Ruger #1. Not a bad price for the right gun, but I don't think I'd want to spend more money on redoing something cosmetic than I did on the gun itself. __________________ You only take one shot at a time - make it count.

January 3, 2011, 02:14 PM	#8
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	After poking around a little bit, I see that it's one of those processes that comes out a whole lot easier and cheaper when there are a whole bunch to do at once. It looks a little out of the reach of li'l ol' me on one at a time basis. horseman308, you're right, spending twice the price of the gun for the work isn't my cup of tea. By the way, I saw a couple of ~1900-1910 Colt SAAs at Cabelas the other day that Doug Turnbull restored. Gorgeous. And spendy. But gorgeous, just the same. And in the next cabinet over they had the most beautiful Henry .44 rimfire rifle with a beautifully engraved receiver and lovely persimmon stock. Just $81,000. My wife said no. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

January 3, 2011, 10:17 PM	#16
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	I know how the traditional case hardening is done and I definitely agree that it's outside of my comfort zone, if not ability. In the end, I'm pretty doggone happy with what I've got. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

January 3, 2011, 10:22 PM	#17
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	I just had a thought - I have a good friend who has a couple of kilns that he fires glass in. I know that they'll go to 1500 F and above. Now it's got me wondering... I may have to do some research and buy a couple of beat up old frames to experiment with. Oh joy, another project. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

January 3, 2011, 11:46 AM	#1
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	"Case color" I picked up a .357 Cimarron Model P last night for what I thought was a pretty good price, $230. I agonized between it and a New Vaquero, but my new year's resolution was to try really hard to not introduce any new calibers this year, so I passed on the .45LC. Anyway, the Cimarron, a Uberti gun, is in great shape, with a 4.75" barrel and an extra set of Gunfighter grips. But the imitation case colors are quite faded on one side of the frame and maybe half gone on the other. Now, it's not a huge deal to me because the price was right and it's not exactly a collector's gun. But is there a way to redo the coloring on the frame that won't break the bank or require a degree in chemistry? Oh yeah, I know the rule: pictures or it didn't happen. I'll post 'em tonight. And if the mercury breaks 30 this week, I might even shoot it! __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

January 3, 2011, 12:21 PM	#2
rdstrain49 Member Join Date: December 30, 2010 Location: South Central, Iowa Posts: 65	I don't even remember what 30 degrees feels

January 3, 2011, 01:35 PM	#4
SG29736 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2007 Location: Northern Ca. Posts: 107	Color case hardening is not just a coloring process, it is a heat treatment process. True. But a lot of the Colt clones use other processes to make it look like the gun was color case hardened. I don't know who can re do those kinds of treatments. Mark

January 3, 2011, 01:39 PM	#5
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	The alternative method, IIRC, uses cyanide to replicate the colors. As for having it done, you might try asking Doug Turnbull's group - they are the best at it

January 3, 2011, 02:34 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Just as well, Walmart seldom ever has .44 Henry Flat ammo on sale.

January 3, 2011, 03:16 PM	#10
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	Uberti and Pietta still color their frames using cyanide which is OK but not as pretty as true bone/charcoal color case. Classic firearms in Illinois does a great job of true bone charcoal color case and a single action army would be under $200 with postage both ways.

January 3, 2011, 03:40 PM	#11
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	I'd strip it with Naval Jelly and blue it.

January 3, 2011, 03:51 PM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I'd leave it alone and tell tall tales about all the places I had carried it to wear that much finish off.

January 3, 2011, 04:36 PM	#14
bighead46 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Posts: 140	There's a book called "Double Guns" on redoing side by side shotguns. The author was Hughes or Haines (can't remember) but he gave a formula on color case hardening. If I recall, all case hardening was sort of grayish hundreds of years ago but when the part was quenched some oils etc added color that folks liked and then the color case hardening got going. In any event try asking around on the net in shotgun forums- someone may have or remember the book.

January 3, 2011, 09:17 PM	#15
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	The methodology for bone/charcoal case hardening is not complex but the required equipment is generally outside the realm of the hobbyiest. This is how it is done. The well polished parts are packed in a curcible with a 50/50 mix of charred bone and wood charcoal. The cruciblle then goes into a heat treat oven at 1500deg F for about 40 minutes. The parts are then dropped into a water quench that has an aerator that bubbles up the water. Once cooled the parts are dried and oiled. That's all there is to it but it does require some serious equipment.

January 3, 2011, 10:27 PM	#18
twhidd Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 823	You better post pictures if you do. __________________ Todd NRA Life Member

January 3, 2011, 10:50 PM	#19
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	What you have to be careful about is warping the frame when you heat it to that temperature - most old SxS shotguns needed to be filed some more to true them up. You also don't want to mess up the heat treatment by doing it wrong

January 4, 2011, 02:47 PM	#21
bighead46 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Posts: 140	Actually I think the gun looks pretty good just the way it is. If you start looking at big numbers maybe it would be best to nickel plate it.

January 4, 2011, 02:58 PM	#22
Frontier Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Posts: 32	Hardcase, I'd leave it. That gun's just starting to get a bit of character! There is a guy does the big gun shows over here and sells a case hardening compound - don't know whether it's liquid, paste or solid but I seem to think it's only a few bucks. Frontier

January 4, 2011, 03:27 PM	#24
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	That product is probably Kasenite. It is for case hardening but not in color. Case hardening is heating low carbon steel coated with a high carbon content material such as charcoal or kasenite so that the surface absorbes carbon a few thousandths deep. Quenching from the critical temperature hardens the skin of the part leaving the interior softer. This process does not impart colors but leaves the surface a gray color. Case hardening in color requires the specific types of high carbon material and the quenching bath has to be aerated which imparts a differential rate of cooling trapping the colors.

January 4, 2011, 04:11 PM	#25
mrappe Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 253	Case Coloring comes from the heat treating processes as others have said Either from the bone and charcoal method or others but they are all semi-permant in that they don't just wash off with a chemical. I used to have one of the original Ruger Vaqueros and they only had a color treatment put on top of the steel. I was able to disolve it off uing a chemical (this was to make the gun look 'aged' long before you could buy them that way). As far as I know the Italian copies use arsenic to harden the heat treated metal. This works but is not as good as the method that Colt etc used which is packing the reciever in a combination of bone and other organics into a metal container and heating and cooling it in a precise way. The only other factory that uses that method that I know of is USFA which makes a clone that looks as good as the Colts. You can case color steel by using things like kasenite but it is made for hardning and does not give a results that is predictable as far as coloring. __________________ God is fluxing me which is good but it is not fun.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search