Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Review in S.W.A.T.

rock_jock · April 28, 2002, 12:03 PM

I was pleased to see a review of this new rifle in the June issue. There has been a lot of hype about its innovative design and features, but only scant information available from knowledgeable sources. Unfortunately for me, as a left-handed shooter, the review came about a week too late. I recently purchased a NIB Kel-Tec Sub 2000 based on favorable opinions on the Internet and was initially impressed with how well it handled, but was deeply disappointed when I test-fired it. While the gun performed admirably, the ergonomics were decidedly unfriendly for lefties. You touched on the poor placement of the mag release button, which invariably caused the magazine to drop every time I tightened my grip (an "oops!" that cannot be tolerated in social confrontations). This was a significant drawback in and of itself. However, I would also add that the short stock and blowback action means that when fired from the shoulder, a lefty will end up with a face pocked by hot residue and forcefully ejected spent casings. That was not mentioned in the article. I noticed in one of the photos that Mr. Awerbuck was firing left-handed from the prone position and was wondering if he too experienced this problem, and, if so, why he didn't report it. In any case, I have learned my lesson and in the future when a new gun comes out, I will wait patiently for the S.W.A.T. review before I buy.

Denny Hansen · April 28, 2002, 03:30 PM

Rock_Jock--
Louis Awerbuck and myself both fired the Sub 2000 left-handed (as well as right) and neither of us experienced any gas blowback or ejected cases on our faces. I know the test gun was not a "ringer" as it was purchased from a local gunshop for the test. I have since had occasion to fire a friend's but only fired it right-handed. IIRC, the spent cases from that Sub 2000 were landing at about 2 o'clock. Sorry, I can't shed any light on the problem with yours.

In the July issue we review a shotgun that caused some trouble for both left and right-handed shooters. (Hint: It was recenlty adopted by the USMC.)

Denny

Correia · April 28, 2002, 04:45 PM

Denny, I'm guessing that you are talking about the M4 Benelli? I played with one at SHOT show, I hated that telescoping stock!

Of course I didn't get to shoot it, but I found it awkward as all get out just to shoulder.

And I got a kick out of the letters to the editor this month. Since you guys are "posers". Lets see, on the staff you have experienced cops, swat, sheriff's deputies, Marines, Navy SEALS, Army (heck even your web designer is a Ranger) and staff from Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and everything else. But you are all "posers" because you happen to like the Mini-14.

Good issue. Thanks.

**Mal H** · April 28, 2002, 05:33 PM

Yeah, that was a good one! I especially liked Denny's non-answer to the reader on that observation.

Denny Hansen · April 28, 2002, 08:04 PM

Correia--

Spot-on, Larry. You've won this month's cup of coffee (de-caf?).

The M4 has received a lot of hype but our evaluation showed it, to be polite, lacking--and we said so.
Yup, that's us: a bunch of posers and slaves to advertisers

Denny

rock_jock · April 29, 2002, 12:05 AM

Hmmm.... Well, I may have picked up a lemon. In any case, the mag release was reason enough to sell it, which I ended up doing the next day.

BTW, I'm impressed with the ambidextrous rifle shooting.

nascarnhlnra · April 29, 2002, 12:47 PM

Denny ya'lls unbiased articles and tell it like it is attitude ( not to mention the wealth of knowledge ) are the exact things that made me subscribe to S.W.A.T. Keep up the great work love every issue. Just the fact that ya'll posted the letter about that fellows dislike of the AR vs Mini article shows how unbiased you are.Stay low and keep writting.....Dave

Rob Pincus · April 29, 2002, 08:54 PM

I'm glad the tale of the M-4 is going to be told. I've yet to do more than handle one myself... but the things I've heard from reliable sources are less than flattering. I'm looking forward to reading the article.

KSFreeman · April 29, 2002, 09:14 PM

Why would numbnuts call the featured writers of SWAT "posers"? (Awerbuck? [here's a clue for you, Kerrrk] Yikes. Smith? Yikes. THE Pat Rogers? Yikes. Ossifer Wheat? Yikes.). Sure the whole Mini-14/AR-15 may not be a highlight, but not every shot is dead on. Should have told him to go read a flower-shirted moron and to pound sand!

rkc · May 2, 2002, 08:35 PM

Somehow I think a good man with a gun does about as well with one as the other. It take an awful lot of shooting to 'shoot right up to the gun' and at SWAT, you dont see a lot of machine rests. We prefer to keep in touch with reality. Firing the gun off hand shows sharp edges, an ill placed safety, or other problems. And people are different, so they handle guns different. I thought the 25 yard benchrest was the standard of judging handguns- this was a long time ago-until I saw a fellow named Hansen testing pistols rapid fire at ten yard on his feet. I tried it. Seperates a lot of guns more meaningfully. I was a hardheaded cop but I learned a great deal from SWAT. Take care,

R K C

Oh, posers. If I were to really pose I could win an ugly gun writer contest. I think the old time word was posturer. There are deadly serious professionals on the staff, and photographs are
necessary- this is an illustrated magazine and we have to have illustrations, and that means photos of us holding the gun. or knife. or holster. Training is simulating combat. So, we are simulating combat but firing the gun.

I was impressed by SWAT when I did not know what I know now. The more I learn the more humble I am - and the more impressed with SWAT.

Also, while I am burning the keys up-I have been stuck on 50 words a minute for about three years-the Firing Line is the home of a wonderful group of intelligent, sophisticated and
witty folks, more than you will ever find in one place than any other means. I enjoy my time online immensely.
Have a good night,

R K Campbell

rkc · May 2, 2002, 08:54 PM

Also, saw Editor Hansen shooting a .45 caliber Witness in SWAT.
I wondered what in the world did he want with that gun?
I mean, couldn't he find a 1911?
I bought one.
Man, I love my Witness .45
and the 9mm
and the .40
and the .22 conversion unit.
and the 10mm
All for the price of many less upscale/no better handguns

good night

Rob Pincus · May 3, 2002, 09:47 AM

Glad to know that Denny and I aren't the only closet Witness fans on the staff....

(I've even got one of those Jericho 941 complete kits!)

Kaliburz · May 6, 2002, 08:26 PM

I have the Sub 2000's older, bigger brother, the Sub-40 & I too am a lefty. I just bought a brass catcher bag and put that on when I shoot. I too noticed that w/out it, you get some powder tast and a little blow back.

April 28, 2002, 12:03 PM	#1
rock_jock Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: SE Texas Posts: 1,779	Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Review in S.W.A.T. I was pleased to see a review of this new rifle in the June issue. There has been a lot of hype about its innovative design and features, but only scant information available from knowledgeable sources. Unfortunately for me, as a left-handed shooter, the review came about a week too late. I recently purchased a NIB Kel-Tec Sub 2000 based on favorable opinions on the Internet and was initially impressed with how well it handled, but was deeply disappointed when I test-fired it. While the gun performed admirably, the ergonomics were decidedly unfriendly for lefties. You touched on the poor placement of the mag release button, which invariably caused the magazine to drop every time I tightened my grip (an "oops!" that cannot be tolerated in social confrontations). This was a significant drawback in and of itself. However, I would also add that the short stock and blowback action means that when fired from the shoulder, a lefty will end up with a face pocked by hot residue and forcefully ejected spent casings. That was not mentioned in the article. I noticed in one of the photos that Mr. Awerbuck was firing left-handed from the prone position and was wondering if he too experienced this problem, and, if so, why he didn't report it. In any case, I have learned my lesson and in the future when a new gun comes out, I will wait patiently for the S.W.A.T. review before I buy.

April 28, 2002, 03:30 PM	#2
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Rock_Jock-- Louis Awerbuck and myself both fired the Sub 2000 left-handed (as well as right) and neither of us experienced any gas blowback or ejected cases on our faces. I know the test gun was not a "ringer" as it was purchased from a local gunshop for the test. I have since had occasion to fire a friend's but only fired it right-handed. IIRC, the spent cases from that Sub 2000 were landing at about 2 o'clock. Sorry, I can't shed any light on the problem with yours. In the July issue we review a shotgun that caused some trouble for both left and right-handed shooters. (Hint: It was recenlty adopted by the USMC.) Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

April 28, 2002, 08:04 PM	#5
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Correia-- Spot-on, Larry. You've won this month's cup of coffee (de-caf?). The M4 has received a lot of hype but our evaluation showed it, to be polite, lacking--and we said so. Yup, that's us: a bunch of posers and slaves to advertisers Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

April 29, 2002, 12:47 PM	#7
nascarnhlnra Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2002 Location: THE DEEP SOUTH USA Posts: 531	Denny ya'lls unbiased articles and tell it like it is attitude ( not to mention the wealth of knowledge ) are the exact things that made me subscribe to S.W.A.T. Keep up the great work love every issue. Just the fact that ya'll posted the letter about that fellows dislike of the AR vs Mini article shows how unbiased you are.Stay low and keep writting.....Dave __________________ The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house faster than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !

April 29, 2002, 08:54 PM	#8
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I'm glad the tale of the M-4 is going to be told. I've yet to do more than handle one myself... but the things I've heard from reliable sources are less than flattering. I'm looking forward to reading the article. __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

April 28, 2002, 04:45 PM	#3
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Denny, I'm guessing that you are talking about the M4 Benelli? I played with one at SHOT show, I hated that telescoping stock! Of course I didn't get to shoot it, but I found it awkward as all get out just to shoulder. And I got a kick out of the letters to the editor this month. Since you guys are "posers". Lets see, on the staff you have experienced cops, swat, sheriff's deputies, Marines, Navy SEALS, Army (heck even your web designer is a Ranger) and staff from Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and everything else. But you are all "posers" because you happen to like the Mini-14. Good issue. Thanks.

April 28, 2002, 05:33 PM	#4
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	Yeah, that was a good one! I especially liked Denny's non-answer to the reader on that observation.

April 29, 2002, 12:05 AM	#6
rock_jock Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: SE Texas Posts: 1,779	Hmmm.... Well, I may have picked up a lemon. In any case, the mag release was reason enough to sell it, which I ended up doing the next day. BTW, I'm impressed with the ambidextrous rifle shooting.

April 29, 2002, 09:14 PM	#9
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Why would numbnuts call the featured writers of SWAT "posers"? (Awerbuck? [here's a clue for you, Kerrrk] Yikes. Smith? Yikes. THE Pat Rogers? Yikes. Ossifer Wheat? Yikes.). Sure the whole Mini-14/AR-15 may not be a highlight, but not every shot is dead on. Should have told him to go read a flower-shirted moron and to pound sand! __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

May 2, 2002, 08:35 PM	#10
rkc Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: South Posts: 295	Somehow I think a good man with a gun does about as well with one as the other. It take an awful lot of shooting to 'shoot right up to the gun' and at SWAT, you dont see a lot of machine rests. We prefer to keep in touch with reality. Firing the gun off hand shows sharp edges, an ill placed safety, or other problems. And people are different, so they handle guns different. I thought the 25 yard benchrest was the standard of judging handguns- this was a long time ago-until I saw a fellow named Hansen testing pistols rapid fire at ten yard on his feet. I tried it. Seperates a lot of guns more meaningfully. I was a hardheaded cop but I learned a great deal from SWAT. Take care, R K C Oh, posers. If I were to really pose I could win an ugly gun writer contest. I think the old time word was posturer. There are deadly serious professionals on the staff, and photographs are necessary- this is an illustrated magazine and we have to have illustrations, and that means photos of us holding the gun. or knife. or holster. Training is simulating combat. So, we are simulating combat but firing the gun. I was impressed by SWAT when I did not know what I know now. The more I learn the more humble I am - and the more impressed with SWAT. Also, while I am burning the keys up-I have been stuck on 50 words a minute for about three years-the Firing Line is the home of a wonderful group of intelligent, sophisticated and witty folks, more than you will ever find in one place than any other means. I enjoy my time online immensely. Have a good night, R K Campbell __________________ rkc

May 2, 2002, 08:54 PM	#11
rkc Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: South Posts: 295	Also, saw Editor Hansen shooting a .45 caliber Witness in SWAT. I wondered what in the world did he want with that gun? I mean, couldn't he find a 1911? I bought one. Man, I love my Witness .45 and the 9mm and the .40 and the .22 conversion unit. and the 10mm All for the price of many less upscale/no better handguns good night __________________ rkc

May 3, 2002, 09:47 AM	#12
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Glad to know that Denny and I aren't the only closet Witness fans on the staff.... (I've even got one of those Jericho 941 complete kits!) __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

May 6, 2002, 08:26 PM	#13
Kaliburz Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Northwest Posts: 128	I have the Sub 2000's older, bigger brother, the Sub-40 & I too am a lefty. I just bought a brass catcher bag and put that on when I shoot. I too noticed that w/out it, you get some powder tast and a little blow back.