January 12, 2013, 08:21 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 1999
Location: MN
Posts: 640
|
9x19 Levergun?
Does any maker currently manufacture a lever action rifle or carbine chambered in 9x19?
I think that would be a nice compact, high capacity and fairly hard hitting package. Plus, they could probably handle hotter handloads than most blowback self-loading carbines. I wouldn't be surprised to see 1600fps with 115's. So, do they exist?
__________________
RN - ICU NRA - PATRON LIFE |
January 12, 2013, 08:42 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 10, 2000
Location: WI
Posts: 1,395
|
I've never seen one in 9x19, but 9x31R is pretty common.
__________________
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen. |
January 12, 2013, 09:14 AM | #3 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,846
|
I would think feeding of such a short rimless cartridge would be very problematic. With enough input of time and money, almost anything is possible.
|
January 12, 2013, 09:20 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Location: NC
Posts: 947
|
In addition the the probable feeding issues, I would be surprised if the 9x19 benefited from the longer barrel, but maybe that isn't your intent.
|
January 12, 2013, 09:25 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,315
|
My Marlin camp nine taught me all I needed to know about long barreled nine's. There isn't a significant velocity gain, as in a .357. Side by side with a 94AE, even the .38 special seems to shoot better. It's the case size which is too limited. I've never heard of Marlin being a slouch for accuracy. I have HK handguns that easily shoot better with the 9mm. I believe it's the rounds limitations in a long barrel.
|
January 12, 2013, 09:51 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 1999
Location: MN
Posts: 640
|
I don't think I'd assume that feeding issues would be probable.
After all, length to diameter the 9x19 isn't much different of a ratio than .45 LC and .44 S&W Special, both of which have been successful in that platform. Plus, the tapered case would feed better than the straight-walled revolver rounds, and the .45 LC barely has a rim, so being rimless I don't see the 9x19 as disadvantaged. I see a couple reasons why a lever 9x19 would be nice; as a companion to a sidearm in the same caliber, longer sight radius and a capacity (in rifle length of 12-14 rounds), and as a levergun they are every bit as effective/lethal as EBR's but don't look like it, so they're unlikely to draw legislative scorn anytime soon. If long-barreled 9's had no place we wouldn't have semiauto carbines; ANY caliber can usually be improved with handloading, and pistol calibers used in longer barrels often utilize slower powders than their factory loads. I probably should have started this thread in the levergun rifle area rather than general, but I didn't notice that option at the time. The original question still stands: has anybody produced a 9x19 levergun?
__________________
RN - ICU NRA - PATRON LIFE |
January 12, 2013, 12:03 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
no nobody has ever built one. browning has designed a lever action that takes box magazines rather than a tube so it is able to take rimless, pointed bullet cartridges but the ammo capacity is not what you would expect, pretty lousy actually. I fully agree with everyone else, the velocity gains of a 9mm through a 16 inch barrel is quite minimal and increase of energy is barely recordable. it's a pretty lousy option for hunting or just about anything else but punching holes in paper. a more solid design like a lever isn't going to offer much improvement over a semi and too long of a barrel can also be a bad thing.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
January 12, 2013, 01:10 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
No, it has not been done. It could be done but...
A lot of 9mm hardball is pretty pointy, and a straight case pistol cartridge in a tubular magazine is about guaranteed to put bullet noses against primers. Ed Harris once had a .44 Marlin converted to .45 ACP but would not shoot hardball in it, even one at a time to chronograph, didn't want to give people funny ideas that might lead to a gangfire. |
January 12, 2013, 01:54 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 28, 2008
Location: Near Fairbanks Alaska
Posts: 829
|
Doubt a reliable 9mm lever could be built.
But you get about a 200 fps gain rifle over pistol. And you would also gain a longer sight radius. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html |
January 12, 2013, 06:32 PM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 1999
Location: MN
Posts: 640
|
Quote:
Good "point". Regarding ballistic increases, I think most that've responded are considering factory ammo, only. I'm pretty certain that with slower powders one could cook up a handload that would benefit from a longer barrel; on the other hand, such loads wouldn't work well (or may even be dangerous) in a pistol - so my thought about a pairing of companion handgun/rifle 9's wouldn't work well anyway. Well, that's brainstorming for you, doesn't always pan out. Thanks for the replies!
__________________
RN - ICU NRA - PATRON LIFE |
|
January 13, 2013, 09:28 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,753
|
The question about a Lever Action 9mm has already been answered.
My lyman #47 shows a 115gr bullet pushed by 8.7grs of Bluedot getting 1211fps from a 9mm pistol and 1421fps from a Marlin 9mm camp carbine. So a real velocity increase is available if you handload for it. Its not much but enough to insure a hollow point should expand at a hundred yards from the rifle. On the other hand 357 rifles will shoot 125gr bullets at over 2000fps and 158gr bullets at near 1900fps and even faster if you are careful and use a chronograph in testing. The problem is that you are pushing pistol bullets way beyond their design limits. My personal loads for a 357 levergun are 160gr bullets at about 1600-1700fps for deer loads. If more speed is needed I just change guns. But that being said I will say my Marlin 357 is my most favorite gun. If I had to head to the hills thats the gun that I would take. |
January 13, 2013, 09:41 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 8, 2010
Location: SC
Posts: 1,344
|
I'm personally interested in this conversation. Too bad it doesn't exist. It's one of those rifles that would alot of fun to play around with. Granted we already have a few pistol carbines but there is just something about throwing a lever.
|
January 13, 2013, 09:54 PM | #13 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
I hear guys saying that those 147gr loads are for SMG's, due to the higher velocity enabling them to expand..... not seeing it. |
|
January 14, 2013, 12:35 AM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2009
Location: Dallas
Posts: 514
|
I've seen some SA carbines in 9mm at gun shows. Apparently, they are not known for their reliability nor accuracy. I don't see how a non-rimmed cartridge could be used in a column magazine. A 38 Super might could as it is semi rimmed but I've never heard of that in a lever gun either.
|
January 14, 2013, 07:13 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 1999
Location: MN
Posts: 640
|
Quote:
__________________
RN - ICU NRA - PATRON LIFE |
|
January 14, 2013, 07:54 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 14, 2008
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 2,918
|
I would like one in 45acp and 9mm.
__________________
We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are |
|
|