9mm target loads

[Nick_C_S]

Yeah, a lot of powders can be used to load 9mm, but if your looking for high velocity loads capable of +P, the field narrows pretty quickly.

That's not true at all - virtually ANY powder can be loaded to +P.

Perhaps the terms "pressure" and "velocity" are being improperly tangled here.

"+P" is a pressure term. It is NOT a velocity term.

[57K]

Any powder can be loaded to an overpressure condition. It will definitely be +P but with no appreciable gain in velocity.

No, there's no entanglement. I say +P type velocity because some powders are capable of achieving velocity as high as +P factory loads, but through careful powder selection the +P designation isn't necessary.

The +P label was originally used to indicate that ammo is loaded to a higher pressure. A lot of times it's used simply as a marketing ploy to those who don't know any better. There are a very good number of +P factory loads that can indeed be loaded at standard pressure if the handloader knows what he's doing. By stating that any powder can be used to load +P, I'd strongly advise against you trying it.

[Nick_C_S]

I said it can be done. I didn't say it should be done.

Agreed, "P+" is sometimes used as a marketing ploy - regardless of the factory load's actual pressure rating. This is true. I just didn't expect it to be used that way in the context of this forum - considering the audience here are reloaders - not the general novice public.

[Brutus]

57K thank you for your input, you obviously are very knowledgeable about upper end 9mm loads, even though you've provided me with a new list of powders that I don't have available and can't get my hands on. At this point in time my major goal is to create target ammo that most closely emulates the +P fodder that my two CZ pistols seem to thrive on. Using plated bullets, for reasons of economy, velocities need to be 1200fps. or less. I don't use hand loads for self defense and have chosen Speer gold dots for that purpose because they have proven to be the most accurate out of my 2 pistols. Eventually I will probably purchase some Hornady, Speer or Sierra bullets just to get into the game. I will keep your post as a reference for when, if ever these, components become available again. In the mean time I'll just stick with my .45's for serious business. Oh, thanks again for the tip on OACL. I will make a point of making some dummy loads to check for the throat length on each bullet I purchase, including the Rainiers I'm currently using. Good tip that will help avoid a major mistake.

[57K]

I said it can be done. I didn't say it should be done.

Agreed, "P+" is sometimes used as a marketing ploy - regardless of the factory load's actual pressure rating. This is true. I just didn't expect it to be used that way in the context of this forum - considering the audience here are reloaders - not the general novice public.

Fact is, no one should ever exceed the maximum load level recommended for STANDARD pressure loads when using a fast burning propellant. Even when the 9mm's pressure rating was 35,700 CUP, the loading manuals did NOT provide data for loads anywhere near that pressure level for fast burning powders. Whether you said can be done, or should be done, you seem to be wholly uninformed about an issue known as the "point of diminishing returns." One reason why a chronograph is instrumental. When using faster burning powders and working up in charge level from a START charge, when a charge increase shows no appreciable gain in velocity, you're near or at it's pressure PEAK. Beyond that level, pressure can spike and graphically represented by an oscilloscope in the case of piezoelectric transducer testing, it's like telling a lie in a polygraph test where the line jumps vertically, except that a polygraph isn't likely to provide the sting that a ruptured case-head in a pistol will.

The reason I'm taking issue to your comment is that you seem oblivious to the fact that inexperienced or newer reloaders might actually attempt reloading very high velocity or +P type loads with an inappropritae powder because of what you stated previously. That's why SAAMI reduced the 9mm's pressure standard in the first place. The only way to get very high velcoity safely with the 9 x19mm is through the use of an appropriate/slower burning powder. Because the powders I mentioned have proven pressure stability to even +P+ pressures and sometimes beyond, they are the best candidates for high velocity loads where the issue of pressure stability is paramount.

Brutus, you're doing it right with AA#7 and limiting velocity to 1200 FPS with a 124 gr. Plated bullet, you want have any problems so long as you don't use the very short OACL recommendations that some don't understand as the minimum that should be used. I've been reloading 9 x 19mm since well before SAAMI reduced it's Max pressure rating. My current carry load in 9mm comes from a V-V load guide that predates their adherence to SAAMI spec's. One reason for that is because in the CIP system used by the European powder manufacturers, the piezoelectric transducer is placed ahead of the case-mouth rather than at the middlie of the chamber as SAAMI uses. It's the same location that was used for CUP testing before the widespread use of the piezo transducer. The CIP system has the transducer looking closer to where PEAK pressure actually occurs. So the load I use with 3N37 is rated 36,300 PSI/CIP. I get 1226 FPS from the Rem. 124 gr. JHP from a Ruger SR9 that has a 4.14" barrel.

I carry the SR45 when I can and it's loaded with the Max. STANDARD pressure charge of Ramshot Silhouette. With 185 gr. Golden Sabers that chrono 1087 from the 4.5" barrel, I'm not worried about it's performance. When I can't carry the SR45, I carry the SR9 with the load that chrono's 1226 FPS from it's barrel. Also, I apply my 9mm practice to the even more pressure unstable .40 S&W. The powders I recommended are the most stable you can use, which is even more of an issue for the .40 S&W than it is for 9mm. The .40's case-head is not as strong as the 9mm's and the .40's Max pressure rating of 35,000 PSI should be approached with extreme caution, whereas the 9mm can easily handle the original pressure spec of 35,700 CUP, or what SAAMI currently uses for +P at 38,500 PSI. Proper powder selection is the key. I don't like muzzle flash so I don't use flake powders, so when people recommend powders like Power Pistol, they're best ignored. The best and most pressure stable sphericals are the way to go and Silhouette is treated for very low flash. True Blue because of its high bulk density is also a low flasher as is V-V 3N37. HS-6, not so much, but it is very pressure stable in 9mm loads which is a bit more significant to comp shooters where flash isn't an issue, and because compensators are used on their pistols, the excess gasses tend to make the compensators more efficient.

[Nick_C_S]

You've completely misinterpreted what I was stating.

My only point was that you were using the term "+P" in terms of velocity when it is a term of pressure.

That's all I was saying. I wasn't even disagreeing with anything you said. Nor was I suggesting in any way to load anything up to "+P" pressures (or beyond) with any powder - fast or slow.

[Brutus]

Didn't mean to start an argument here. I've been reloading for thirty five years, never reloaded for 9mm because I never particularly cared for it.
First center fire I bought was a BHP, Sold it right after I shot a friends Gold cup. I've always been more of a bulls eye shooter than anything else and I could never get the kind of accuracy out of the BHP that I could out of a .45 plus I've always preferred big bores. Decided to give the 9 another whirl after reading about all the advancements made since the military adopted it and as a result of the smaller concealed carry pistols being offered. First purchase was a Kahr P9 about five years ago. I was very pleased with the performance of this pistol. While not a target gun, it proved to be quite adequate for its intended purpose, never considered reloading for it. Its performance with new factory ammo did prove to me that the 9mm had come along way over the years and I began reconsidering a new BHP. Then one dark day at the local range I spied a two tone CZ 85 combat, looked and felt like the BHP but at half the cost and with adjustable sights. I reasoned that 9's were going for 10 bucks a box and that alone would make it worthwhile ( another plan gone astray) at any rate I soon discovered that the $10 ammo shot about the same size groups as my old BHP. Invested in some premium offerings, 5 boxes of 20/25 various brands, costing me a pretty penny, and that's when I discovered the accuracy potential of +P ammo in the CZ. Which made sense to me given its a European design and I've read CIP standard loads are in the +P pressure range. Anyway that's how I got here, Hell if I could find a 200fps. recipe that delivered small groups I'd be a happy camper. Come to think of it I never cared for these short case compressed load cartridges, and your right .40 short & weak is in the same category. Guess that's why I bought a 10mm and rarely shoot my P229 any more. which has me thinking I should trade the Combat for a nice 1911 in 38 Super.

[Nick_C_S]

Nah Brutus, you didn't start an argument. I just made a mountain out of a mole hill, and it ended up detracting from the overall value of this string.

So for that, I apologize to all reading this string.

[WESHOOT2]

Accuracy will be more determined by the particular bullet.

Having loaded pallets of the 124g Rainier for numerous varied pistols, I suggest it will be the limiting factor in your search for "accuracy".


The Hornady bullets of similar weights (121g, 124g) may be a better beginning......over Alliant Power Pistol (like about 6.0g; suggest start load of 5.2g).

[Brutus]

Webshoot
I agree that the Hornady 124gr. bullets would be better but the real limiting factor is:
Can't find any around here.
Cost a lot more than the Rainiers
I have the Rainiers
Can't find any Power pistol around here. Which is to bad because its one of my favorite powders.

[WESHOOT2]

I feel your component-choice pain; I just paid $40 per thousand locally for Federal primers.

I still have a bit of powder, though

[Brutus]

Well now I feel better, went to Cabelas yesterday and got 1,000 CCI's for $39.99 guess I got the better deal on that one eh!

[Brutus]

Well last vacation day so I spent the better part of it at the loading bench.
Kicked up the WSF load from 5.0 to 5.1 ( 50 rounds)
Then I thought I'd try something different, just so happens I had my powder measure setup for 4.8 gr. of Universal clays ( .38 loads for my Python) and since it fell in the range, what the hell may as well make 50 9mm's
See how they do some time this coming weekend.
Browsing through my Shotgun data I see WSF turns out some good performance in 12Guage hunting loads. Anyone here use it for that application?

[Brutus]

Just got back from the range where I tried my second iteration of 9mm reloads. The 5.1gr. WSF load shot very well out of my PCR but not so much out of the 85 Combat, the 4.8gr. of Universal was less than impressive in either gun. I'm going to keep working with the WSF load but I'm going to lower the Universal load to 4.6gr. & try it again. As a side note I took my Sig P220 along with some loads I use in my 1911's, never tried these in the P220. Lo and behold when I got to the range they wouldn't fit in the magazine, they were to long.
I wonder why Sig decided to make short mags? Must be a European thing.

[Brutus]

Well I've come full circle. Tried 4.7gr of WSF with my 124gr. Rainiers and got a major improvement in accuracy, very nice target load for informal bullseye shooting, low recoil, clean burning. Think I'm going to reduce it to 4.6gr. just to see what happens. Also lucked out at Cabelas and got a can of Power Pistol so I'm going to load 50 rounds with 5.6gr. and try them out.
Wow here's an eye opener, sat down at the bench and decided to double check the 5.6gr.of power pistol load.
Speer #14 and #13 5.6 to 6.4
Lyman #49 5.1 to 5.7
Hornady 4.3 to 5.7
Alliant website 6.4

Guess this really demonstrates the need to have more than one source of reloading data.

Will load 50 rounds wit 5.1grs. for starters.

[warhwkbb]

I've had good luck with WSF and plated 124gr bullets. 4.5gr WSF under Berry's 124gr RN is easy on my 70 yr old P38 and will (just) cycle the slide on my PM9