.45 Super

zot · April 9, 1999, 10:40 AM

besides web of case being thicker than .45 acp, what else is involved in 1911 conversion
to .45 Super?

Keith Rogan · April 11, 1999, 01:12 PM

Zot,

I hope you get an answer to this question - I'm curious as well.
I think its as simple as getting a stouter recoil spring and going to work, but I'm not sure about that.

Keith

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

swifter... · April 11, 1999, 06:40 PM

Hoo, Boy! I sure thought I had more info on this than I found...
Anyway, Dean Grennell started it with some Detonics .451 Mag brass and hot loads, then the project was taken over by Ace Hindemann(?) of ? Texas, who, as I recall, did a rework on the 1911 frame so there was support all around for the brass. He made it more like a '35 Hi-Power frame and linkage. Add a heavier recoil and firing pin spring, and he was purportedly getting about 1300 fps with a 185 gr. JHP.
The big problem with hot-rodding the 1911, of course, is that little half-moon of unsupported brass at the feed ramp. With new brass, a 22# recoil spring, and speer's 200 gr JHP "flying ashtray" it is possible, with an injudicious charge of Blue Dot to achieve over 1100 fps... The brass is NOT reusable, and I DO NOT recommend any experimentation along these lines! The probability of damage to firearms and body parts is altogether too high.

------------------
Shoot carefully... swifter...

zot · April 11, 1999, 09:59 PM

I have May issue of Guns&Ammofront cover
says, pushing the envelope! Springfield's
SLAMMIN LONGSLIDE .45 Super, now they say only use .45 Super brass, and its for sale at Starline for$63 per 500 or $114 per 1000.
if ya look at the article the BIG difference
I see is the barrel is thick and has no
barrel bushing, the rest of the inards look
basic 1911 plus a full-length guide rod,
I went to the Ace web site and their selling
conversion for Super for about $350, but don't tell exactly whats in kit, I'm not certain if a slide or anything besides barrel
and rod and springs are in conversion kit,
I think I'll get 500 of the Super brass to
load some hot loads but not go Super till I'm
sure whats all involved,thanks for posts.

Walt Welch · April 21, 1999, 01:59 AM

Gentle posters. The American Rifleman had an article on the .45 Super about a year ago. History and development as well as reloading data were covered. In addition, the modifications made by the late Ace Hindemann were covered in detail.

Reloading data should not be exceeded under any circumstances. In the next issue, in the letter to the editors, was a letter from a co-developer of the cartridge. He was shooting some reloads one day, and noticed significant recoil, but no signs of excess pressure. These loads were later tested out at about 55,000 cup!! His insightful comment was that the first sign of overpressure in the 1911 pattern is often a burst gun.

Be careful with this one. Walt

Spectre · April 22, 1999, 05:57 PM

Swifter,

In one of these articles- from a year or two ago- I heard there was actually 1500 fps achieved with the 185-grain by, I believe, Grennell. He deliberately downloaded this because he expected handloaders to "push the envelope", and wanted to give them some room.

James L · April 28, 1999, 06:19 AM

Kit from Ace is $199.50.
Includes barrel,springs,??.
Says some "gunsmithing" is required.
Factory ammo will push 185 gr at 1400 fps and 230 at 1250.
Hope this helps.
Also can still shoot regular .45.
Stay safe............Jim

Bullmoose · May 7, 1999, 05:17 PM

I would think that a ramped bbl would be prudent, but I am going to dig up the Grenell article and the on in the Rifleman and see what they say. I have several of the books by Dean Grenell with or without Wiley Post. I can't remember which has the article.
There was also some work on the same case necked to 38 which was called the HH for Hard Head or ? Be interesting to look it up as I am starting to work on 4 1911 projects and maybe one of these might be fun to use on the uncommitted caliber one. Jim

Bullmoose · May 7, 1999, 11:29 PM

I found the Rifleman article, Nov-Dec 1997, the changes required are: dual recoil 30# springs,buffered head full length guide rod,shortened and recontoured firing pin to minimize pierced primers concern, extra stiff firing pin spring, extended ejectector, square bottomed oversize firing pin stop, oversize heavy duty extractor. There are some other recommendations to help tame the recoil(beaver grip safety, stippled or checkered grip frontstrap) and a good quality bbl. Ace Custom 45's supplies the basic conversion for $325 and the kit for $179.95 as of date of the magazine. The test guns pushed 185gr bullets at 1243fps with 633fpe, the 165gr at at 1332 and 648fpe. Probably prudent to use these lighter bullets to reduce the recoil somewhat. The Springfield Super M19112 has a port on each side of the front sight with 7 ports in the bbl per side just like their V10 and was reported to work good. Jim
PS: About ported guns and night shooting, at Gunsite a couple of months ago a female student was using a V10 at our night shooting exercise and as I walked behind the squad as they shot I could not see any difference in the muzzle flash and I was suprised that it was a ported gun.

Mikie · May 25, 1999, 01:44 PM

Pay a visit to www.triton-ammo.com. Triton is the only ammo manufacturer that I know of that makes 45Super. They have a writeup on this cartridge and state that the H&K USP45 is a stock gun that can handle this cartridge. This prompted me to buy a USP but I haven't begun developing any 45 Super loads because I don't own a chronograph(yet). Another USP owner emailed me and said he has chrono'd 185 gr in 45 Super at ~1280 fps without any significant bulge(with Starline brass as previously mentioned). He stopped there and was satisfied. I would be satisfied with this level of performance as well. I have been trying to gather as much data about this as possible. Despite claims about a stock USP being OK, I have purchased an aftermarket barrel from Olympic Arms which is supposed to be better supported and plan on buying a 16# recoil spring from Wolff's to replace the 13# stock spring. Powder charges using Alliant Power Pistol start at 9 grains and go up slightly over 11. 9.1 gr of PP is supposed to be a 45 +P load, but the volume of 45 Super brass is less than a standard 45 so it will yield higher pressure to start with. For now I am satisfied with 45 +P in the H&K, but plan on developing a 45 Super load with Power Pistol in the near future.

------------------

JMC · May 26, 1999, 07:28 AM

Mike,

FWIW, DO NOT use .45 Super ammo of any kind in your HK USP.

They have had several returned with cracked frames due to the use of .45 Super ammo and last word was that they do not intend to honor the warranty on the weapons.

This is directly from a friend who works for HK.

His comment was, "some gun nut writer wrote an article and said it was OK to use the .45 Super in the USP, it's not."

------------------
Jim

"Trust in GOD... but carry a GLOCK"

Mikie · May 28, 1999, 12:28 PM

Thanks, JMC. At this point I'm almost willing to settle for +P as the hottest in my USP45. I really like the gun and don't want to cause its early demise. Anyone interested should check out the thread in "Handguns & Pistolcraft" entitled "45 Super and the mighty USP." (I might have to add a 10mm Glock 20 to my collection to satisfy my hot cartridge appetite).

------------------

Futo Inu · May 29, 1999, 11:05 AM

Isn't it amazing how some blip in a written peice can be accepted as gospel and spread like wildfire as truth? I've heard numerous time as unequivocal truth that USPs handle .45 Super. If you have a USP, but don't want to shoot full-power 45S loads, you might note that Triton sells ".45 Super Tactical" loads, which are .45S lites, somewhere between +Ps and 45S full.

Oh yeah, does .45 Super use magnum primers? If so, then would a recountoured/shortened striker cause light primer strike problems?

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited May 29, 1999).]

April 9, 1999, 10:40 AM	#1
zot Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 1999 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 566	besides web of case being thicker than .45 acp, what else is involved in 1911 conversion to .45 Super?

April 11, 1999, 01:12 PM	#2
Keith Rogan Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 1,014	Zot, I hope you get an answer to this question - I'm curious as well. I think its as simple as getting a stouter recoil spring and going to work, but I'm not sure about that. Keith ------------------ Keith The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

April 11, 1999, 06:40 PM	#3
swifter... Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: So. CA Mountains Posts: 540	Hoo, Boy! I sure thought I had more info on this than I found... Anyway, Dean Grennell started it with some Detonics .451 Mag brass and hot loads, then the project was taken over by Ace Hindemann(?) of ? Texas, who, as I recall, did a rework on the 1911 frame so there was support all around for the brass. He made it more like a '35 Hi-Power frame and linkage. Add a heavier recoil and firing pin spring, and he was purportedly getting about 1300 fps with a 185 gr. JHP. The big problem with hot-rodding the 1911, of course, is that little half-moon of unsupported brass at the feed ramp. With new brass, a 22# recoil spring, and speer's 200 gr JHP "flying ashtray" it is possible, with an injudicious charge of Blue Dot to achieve over 1100 fps... The brass is NOT reusable, and I DO NOT recommend any experimentation along these lines! The probability of damage to firearms and body parts is altogether too high. ------------------ Shoot carefully... swifter...

April 11, 1999, 09:59 PM	#4
zot Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 1999 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 566	I have May issue of Guns&Ammofront cover says, pushing the envelope! Springfield's SLAMMIN LONGSLIDE .45 Super, now they say only use .45 Super brass, and its for sale at Starline for$63 per 500 or $114 per 1000. if ya look at the article the BIG difference I see is the barrel is thick and has no barrel bushing, the rest of the inards look basic 1911 plus a full-length guide rod, I went to the Ace web site and their selling conversion for Super for about $350, but don't tell exactly whats in kit, I'm not certain if a slide or anything besides barrel and rod and springs are in conversion kit, I think I'll get 500 of the Super brass to load some hot loads but not go Super till I'm sure whats all involved,thanks for posts.

April 21, 1999, 01:59 AM	#5
Walt Welch Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 1998 Location: Alamo, CA Posts: 424	Gentle posters. The American Rifleman had an article on the .45 Super about a year ago. History and development as well as reloading data were covered. In addition, the modifications made by the late Ace Hindemann were covered in detail. Reloading data should not be exceeded under any circumstances. In the next issue, in the letter to the editors, was a letter from a co-developer of the cartridge. He was shooting some reloads one day, and noticed significant recoil, but no signs of excess pressure. These loads were later tested out at about 55,000 cup!! His insightful comment was that the first sign of overpressure in the 1911 pattern is often a burst gun. Be careful with this one. Walt

April 22, 1999, 05:57 PM	#6
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Swifter, In one of these articles- from a year or two ago- I heard there was actually 1500 fps achieved with the 185-grain by, I believe, Grennell. He deliberately downloaded this because he expected handloaders to "push the envelope", and wanted to give them some room.

April 28, 1999, 06:19 AM	#7
James L Member Join Date: December 28, 1998 Posts: 32	Kit from Ace is $199.50. Includes barrel,springs,??. Says some "gunsmithing" is required. Factory ammo will push 185 gr at 1400 fps and 230 at 1250. Hope this helps. Also can still shoot regular .45. Stay safe............Jim

May 7, 1999, 05:17 PM	#8
Bullmoose Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 1999 Location: Placentia,CA,USA Posts: 143	I would think that a ramped bbl would be prudent, but I am going to dig up the Grenell article and the on in the Rifleman and see what they say. I have several of the books by Dean Grenell with or without Wiley Post. I can't remember which has the article. There was also some work on the same case necked to 38 which was called the HH for Hard Head or ? Be interesting to look it up as I am starting to work on 4 1911 projects and maybe one of these might be fun to use on the uncommitted caliber one. Jim

May 7, 1999, 11:29 PM	#9
Bullmoose Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 1999 Location: Placentia,CA,USA Posts: 143	I found the Rifleman article, Nov-Dec 1997, the changes required are: dual recoil 30# springs,buffered head full length guide rod,shortened and recontoured firing pin to minimize pierced primers concern, extra stiff firing pin spring, extended ejectector, square bottomed oversize firing pin stop, oversize heavy duty extractor. There are some other recommendations to help tame the recoil(beaver grip safety, stippled or checkered grip frontstrap) and a good quality bbl. Ace Custom 45's supplies the basic conversion for $325 and the kit for $179.95 as of date of the magazine. The test guns pushed 185gr bullets at 1243fps with 633fpe, the 165gr at at 1332 and 648fpe. Probably prudent to use these lighter bullets to reduce the recoil somewhat. The Springfield Super M19112 has a port on each side of the front sight with 7 ports in the bbl per side just like their V10 and was reported to work good. Jim PS: About ported guns and night shooting, at Gunsite a couple of months ago a female student was using a V10 at our night shooting exercise and as I walked behind the squad as they shot I could not see any difference in the muzzle flash and I was suprised that it was a ported gun.

May 25, 1999, 01:44 PM	#10
Mikie Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 1998 Location: Eastern MA, USA Posts: 229	Pay a visit to www.triton-ammo.com. Triton is the only ammo manufacturer that I know of that makes 45Super. They have a writeup on this cartridge and state that the H&K USP45 is a stock gun that can handle this cartridge. This prompted me to buy a USP but I haven't begun developing any 45 Super loads because I don't own a chronograph(yet). Another USP owner emailed me and said he has chrono'd 185 gr in 45 Super at ~1280 fps without any significant bulge(with Starline brass as previously mentioned). He stopped there and was satisfied. I would be satisfied with this level of performance as well. I have been trying to gather as much data about this as possible. Despite claims about a stock USP being OK, I have purchased an aftermarket barrel from Olympic Arms which is supposed to be better supported and plan on buying a 16# recoil spring from Wolff's to replace the 13# stock spring. Powder charges using Alliant Power Pistol start at 9 grains and go up slightly over 11. 9.1 gr of PP is supposed to be a 45 +P load, but the volume of 45 Super brass is less than a standard 45 so it will yield higher pressure to start with. For now I am satisfied with 45 +P in the H&K, but plan on developing a 45 Super load with Power Pistol in the near future. ------------------

May 26, 1999, 07:28 AM	#11
JMC Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Location: FL Posts: 809	Mike, FWIW, DO NOT use .45 Super ammo of any kind in your HK USP. They have had several returned with cracked frames due to the use of .45 Super ammo and last word was that they do not intend to honor the warranty on the weapons. This is directly from a friend who works for HK. His comment was, "some gun nut writer wrote an article and said it was OK to use the .45 Super in the USP, it's not." ------------------ Jim "Trust in GOD... but carry a GLOCK"

May 28, 1999, 12:28 PM	#12
Mikie Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 1998 Location: Eastern MA, USA Posts: 229	Thanks, JMC. At this point I'm almost willing to settle for +P as the hottest in my USP45. I really like the gun and don't want to cause its early demise. Anyone interested should check out the thread in "Handguns & Pistolcraft" entitled "45 Super and the mighty USP." (I might have to add a 10mm Glock 20 to my collection to satisfy my hot cartridge appetite). ------------------

May 29, 1999, 11:05 AM	#13
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	Isn't it amazing how some blip in a written peice can be accepted as gospel and spread like wildfire as truth? I've heard numerous time as unequivocal truth that USPs handle .45 Super. If you have a USP, but don't want to shoot full-power 45S loads, you might note that Triton sells ".45 Super Tactical" loads, which are .45S lites, somewhere between +Ps and 45S full. Oh yeah, does .45 Super use magnum primers? If so, then would a recountoured/shortened striker cause light primer strike problems? [This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited May 29, 1999).]