That "warm" 45 Colt thread revisited... modern brass... better ???

Magnum Wheel Man · December 22, 2008, 02:43 PM

so... I just ordered 100 Starline 454 Casull brass... I see that Midway also has Starline 45 Colt brass... "all" the reloadng manuals say that 45 Colt brass is not "up to" magnum standards... I plan on ordering 100 Starline 45 Colt brass as well, & sectioning one of each & shortening the Casull brass to Colt length & measuring case capacity...

I want a good "hot" but safe load for my Contender... so I want to load to 44 mag levels...

has anyone ever sectioned the assorted 45 Colt cases, & or compared them to any of the same brand of 454 Casull cases ??? my thoughts are that most modern cases ( brand for brand ) would be made of the same alloy & thickness of brass, only leaving the case length longer on the Casull ( less tooling & other expense ) ??? or do you think "the manuals" are correct, & that the 45 Colt brass is weaker than 454 Casull brass ??? we are not talking old balloon head cases, only modern brass

I currently have Winchester & Remington 45 Colt Cases, & Magtech, Hornady & Starline 454 cases... to expirement with..

any thoughts ???

Dr. A · December 22, 2008, 04:00 PM

Starline brass will have no problem being used at 30,000 CUP level loads like what would be found in Hodgdon's data. I've used them in my 454 casull to go over the 30,000 cup level and had find accuracy and better case life than if I'd shot them in a Ruger with their loose chambers.

30,000 cup is not the 40,000 cup of the 44 mag, but will proove to shot a bigger bullet than the 44 is capable of with less pressure and nearly similar loadings.

Read John Linebaugh's writings, and you'll understand the advantage of the 45 Colt.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writing...g_the_myth.htm

You're casull cases will be more stout than the 45 cases, but the 45 will equal the 44 easily with Starline.

I like the 45 cases because of the ability to use a primer other than that small rifle magnum that I don't feel lets me use decreased pressures effectively.

ligonierbill · December 22, 2008, 05:02 PM

+1 on Linebaugh. I load Starline brass with H110 and 250 or 300 grain hard cast for my Blackhawk .45. Over 1200 fps (you can go more, but that's plenty for me) and not unpleasant to shoot. Spent cases drop right out. It's the old "balloon head" cases that are weak.

Smaug · December 22, 2008, 05:15 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the weakness in 45 Colt brass is in the small rim. Does 454 Casull brass have thicker rims, or wider diameter rims? It is the chambers that contain the pressure, not the brass. So if the chambers are loose, brass will not last as long, as the brass is stretched more each time.

The Casull brass will probably have more brass toward the base than the Colt brass will. If you cut it down to Colt length, make sure you measure capacity to ensure it is the same before proceeding assuming that it is. Less capacity due to thicker base brass = higher pressures than you think.

I just looked at the dimensions of 454 rounds in my Lyman book. 45 Colt uses bigger bullets than 454 Casull. (0.456 vs. 0.451) 45 Colt also has a smaller larger diameter (0.480 vs. 0.4475) This means that if you use cut-down Casull brass in a Colt gun, it will actually be a looser fit and your accuracy will probably suffer. One last thing: they have the same rim diameter, so this means the Casull brass has a wider rim than 45 Colt. (since the case diameter is smaller on the Casull brass)

From the way you phrased it, it seems like your Contender is in 45 Colt. I'd go with modern Colt brass for the tighter fit.

I hope that all made sense. Look at the dimensional drawings and you'll understand.

Since this is the case, it makes a lot of sense, what Dr. A said. If the 454 chamber will also chamber the wider 45 Colt, it is going to be a loose fit in the 454.

Do you have a proper 45 Colt barrel or a 45 Colt/410 bore barrel? I've read that the combo barrels are not very accurate compared to the discontinued 45 Colt ones...

Magnum Wheel Man · December 22, 2008, 05:55 PM

my barrel was re-chambered from a 10" 45 Win Mag barrel... I just traded off a 10" 45-Colt / 410 barrel... not a big fan of them, because of the 3" chamber... I also have a 16" 45 / 410, but use it exclusively as a 410 barrel

I guess I have not looked at the "actual" cartridge dimensions... I thought they were closer than that ???

I think I'll still section a couple cases, measure & post a few pics... but should probably just stick with new Starline 45 Colt cases for the Contender ???

I also Have an Alaskan in 454 Casull... I know I have shot 45 Colt out of it... I guess I'm suprised if there is that much difference in case diameters... I was hoping hot 45 Colt loads with jacketed bullets for the Contender & occasional use in the Alaskan, & tame lead bullet loads for my pair of Montados, to keep a visual difference between the 2 loadings...

Slamfire · December 22, 2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the weakness in 45 Colt brass is in the small rim.

Nah, small rim circumference just creates difficult extracting. The Army used a wider rimmed brass in the Model 1909 for more positive extraction.

Quote:

It is the chambers that contain the pressure, not the brass

Brass basically creates a gas seal. The better an action supports the brass, the "stronger" the action. However if you make the case head thicker, a thicker section of metal is able to carry more load. So if you thickened the sidewalls, case head, and had very little cartridge protrusion, (thin rims), you would have a stronger case.

Ballon cases were the original blackpowder 45 LC cases. Very thin case walls, lots of internal volume. It worked well with 40 grains of black. I have seen published data that indicates that a 250/255 was going out of a Colt SAA at 1000 fps in ballon head cases. You can't do that with smokeless in those cases, because they are so thin. It would blow the case head, most likely.

Some gun authors have sectioned 45LC brass, either John Taffin or Mike Venturino, I think their conclusion was that modern 45 LC brass is not "weak".

AlaskaMike · December 22, 2008, 09:19 PM

John Taffin has written in a couple of his books that Dick Casull used standard .45 Colt brass when he was developing the .454 Casull. It most definitely is not weak. I believe Linebaugh wrote that many .45 Colt revolvers have generously sized chambers, and the resulting overworking of the brass as it went through cycles of full-length sizing and firing in those large chambers also contributed to the stories of .45 Colt brass being weak.

Regardless, I've used Starline brass in my Redhawk with many .44 magnum level loads (RCBS 45-270-SAA over A LOT* of 296 and others) and they survive just fine.

Mike

[* Charge weight removed by staff]

mec · December 22, 2008, 11:27 PM

In the 1980s and early 90s,Ross Seyfreid wrote quite a lot about the modern 45 Colt brass being just as thick, strong, whatever as any other modern case. The colt did stay folded head longer than most cases. I don't know whether Casull used folded or solid head caseses for his early .454 expriments in Colt SAs with special made five shot cylinders. He used a triplex load of Unique, Bullseye and 2400 in the earliest experiments and if he blew up any guns, I don't recall reading about it.
While Speer lists heavy loads for Rugers and Tcs, they caution that anybody wanting magnum loads, should go to a magnum. It seems that a lot of people blow up 45 Colts looking for magnum performance. Seyfreid liked the heavy 45s better than the 454 but he also used five shot cylinders for the heavy loads.

December 22, 2008, 02:43 PM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	That "warm" 45 Colt thread revisited... modern brass... better ??? so... I just ordered 100 Starline 454 Casull brass... I see that Midway also has Starline 45 Colt brass... "all" the reloadng manuals say that 45 Colt brass is not "up to" magnum standards... I plan on ordering 100 Starline 45 Colt brass as well, & sectioning one of each & shortening the Casull brass to Colt length & measuring case capacity... I want a good "hot" but safe load for my Contender... so I want to load to 44 mag levels... has anyone ever sectioned the assorted 45 Colt cases, & or compared them to any of the same brand of 454 Casull cases ??? my thoughts are that most modern cases ( brand for brand ) would be made of the same alloy & thickness of brass, only leaving the case length longer on the Casull ( less tooling & other expense ) ??? or do you think "the manuals" are correct, & that the 45 Colt brass is weaker than 454 Casull brass ??? we are not talking old balloon head cases, only modern brass I currently have Winchester & Remington 45 Colt Cases, & Magtech, Hornady & Starline 454 cases... to expirement with.. any thoughts ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust... Last edited by Magnum Wheel Man; December 22, 2008 at 03:01 PM.

December 22, 2008, 05:15 PM	#4
Smaug Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 3,210	Correct me if I'm wrong, but the weakness in 45 Colt brass is in the small rim. Does 454 Casull brass have thicker rims, or wider diameter rims? It is the chambers that contain the pressure, not the brass. So if the chambers are loose, brass will not last as long, as the brass is stretched more each time. The Casull brass will probably have more brass toward the base than the Colt brass will. If you cut it down to Colt length, make sure you measure capacity to ensure it is the same before proceeding assuming that it is. Less capacity due to thicker base brass = higher pressures than you think. I just looked at the dimensions of 454 rounds in my Lyman book. 45 Colt uses bigger bullets than 454 Casull. (0.456 vs. 0.451) 45 Colt also has a smaller larger diameter (0.480 vs. 0.4475) This means that if you use cut-down Casull brass in a Colt gun, it will actually be a looser fit and your accuracy will probably suffer. One last thing: they have the same rim diameter, so this means the Casull brass has a wider rim than 45 Colt. (since the case diameter is smaller on the Casull brass) From the way you phrased it, it seems like your Contender is in 45 Colt. I'd go with modern Colt brass for the tighter fit. I hope that all made sense. Look at the dimensional drawings and you'll understand. Since this is the case, it makes a lot of sense, what Dr. A said. If the 454 chamber will also chamber the wider 45 Colt, it is going to be a loose fit in the 454. Do you have a proper 45 Colt barrel or a 45 Colt/410 bore barrel? I've read that the combo barrels are not very accurate compared to the discontinued 45 Colt ones... __________________ -Jeremy "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength." - Eric Hoffer

December 22, 2008, 05:55 PM	#5
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	my barrel was re-chambered from a 10" 45 Win Mag barrel... I just traded off a 10" 45-Colt / 410 barrel... not a big fan of them, because of the 3" chamber... I also have a 16" 45 / 410, but use it exclusively as a 410 barrel I guess I have not looked at the "actual" cartridge dimensions... I thought they were closer than that ??? I think I'll still section a couple cases, measure & post a few pics... but should probably just stick with new Starline 45 Colt cases for the Contender ??? I also Have an Alaskan in 454 Casull... I know I have shot 45 Colt out of it... I guess I'm suprised if there is that much difference in case diameters... I was hoping hot 45 Colt loads with jacketed bullets for the Contender & occasional use in the Alaskan, & tame lead bullet loads for my pair of Montados, to keep a visual difference between the 2 loadings... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

December 22, 2008, 09:19 PM	#7
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 941	John Taffin has written in a couple of his books that Dick Casull used standard .45 Colt brass when he was developing the .454 Casull. It most definitely is not weak. I believe Linebaugh wrote that many .45 Colt revolvers have generously sized chambers, and the resulting overworking of the brass as it went through cycles of full-length sizing and firing in those large chambers also contributed to the stories of .45 Colt brass being weak. Regardless, I've used Starline brass in my Redhawk with many .44 magnum level loads (RCBS 45-270-SAA over A LOT* of 296 and others) and they survive just fine. Mike *[ Charge weight removed by staff]** Last edited by Johnny Guest; December 23, 2008 at 06:32 PM. Reason: Charge grossly beyond published maximums

December 22, 2008, 04:00 PM	#2
Dr. A Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2007 Location: Salina, KS. Posts: 215	Starline brass will have no problem being used at 30,000 CUP level loads like what would be found in Hodgdon's data. I've used them in my 454 casull to go over the 30,000 cup level and had find accuracy and better case life than if I'd shot them in a Ruger with their loose chambers. 30,000 cup is not the 40,000 cup of the 44 mag, but will proove to shot a bigger bullet than the 44 is capable of with less pressure and nearly similar loadings. Read John Linebaugh's writings, and you'll understand the advantage of the 45 Colt. http://www.customsixguns.com/writing...g_the_myth.htm You're casull cases will be more stout than the 45 cases, but the 45 will equal the 44 easily with Starline. I like the 45 cases because of the ability to use a primer other than that small rifle magnum that I don't feel lets me use decreased pressures effectively.

December 22, 2008, 05:02 PM	#3
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,451	+1 on Linebaugh. I load Starline brass with H110 and 250 or 300 grain hard cast for my Blackhawk .45. Over 1200 fps (you can go more, but that's plenty for me) and not unpleasant to shoot. Spent cases drop right out. It's the old "balloon head" cases that are weak.

December 22, 2008, 11:27 PM	#8
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	In the 1980s and early 90s,Ross Seyfreid wrote quite a lot about the modern 45 Colt brass being just as thick, strong, whatever as any other modern case. The colt did stay folded head longer than most cases. I don't know whether Casull used folded or solid head caseses for his early .454 expriments in Colt SAs with special made five shot cylinders. He used a triplex load of Unique, Bullseye and 2400 in the earliest experiments and if he blew up any guns, I don't recall reading about it. While Speer lists heavy loads for Rugers and Tcs, they caution that anybody wanting magnum loads, should go to a magnum. It seems that a lot of people blow up 45 Colts looking for magnum performance. Seyfreid liked the heavy 45s better than the 454 but he also used five shot cylinders for the heavy loads.