This is unbelievable,,, - Page 3

MLeake · January 24, 2012, 06:38 PM

For those claiming NYC enforces across the board, and who I'm surprised don't know better (PK? Come on, man, you're usually a fount of good info...), here's the recent case to which I was referring:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...-nyc-gun-case/

From that article:

Quote:

Mark Meckler, a high-profile Tea Party activist and founder, pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct after trying to take his semi-automatic gun onto a flight at La Guardia Airport.

Quite the plea deal he was offered by NYC.

Quote:

Meckler was fined $250 and given a one-year conditional discharge, meaning the case will be dismissed as long as the Tea Party leader says out of trouble for a year. Authorities also confiscated his weapon.

So, if you are all correct about uniform enforcement, can we expect the TN doctor and the ex-Marine to also get $250, confiscation, and no criminal record?

If not, sorry, but you are all wrong.

Meanwhile, Meckler's post plea-deal comment:

Quote:

In a blog post on MarkMeckler.com, Meckler wrote, "much to my surprise, in New York City, it is considered "disorderly conduct" to exercise your constitutionally guaranteed, Second Amendment rights."

Brian Pfleuger · January 24, 2012, 06:56 PM

I'm not sure I see that as related to enforcement....

They were all arrested. THAT'S enforcement.

The end result, that's about money, influence and powerful lawyers, like anything else. I would say that's hardly unique to NYC.

In other words, if some guy from Tennessee gets arrested in NYC with a gun and can't afford a good lawyer and gets nailed, while Mr Powerful, Influential TEA partier ALSO gets arrested (equal enforcement) but then has 3 high-power lawyers, is a public figure, throws a stink and gets a $250 fine, well, that's systemic lack of fairness in the penalty system, it's not a difference in "enforcement".

Wouldn't be any different in Tennessee with their speeding tickets. Two out-of-staters go by Mr Tennessee Highway Patrol going 95mph. One has a NY plate, the other a Kentucky plate.

If he pulls them both over and writes them both tickets for going 95 in a 65, that's equal enforcement. Because one of them happens to have powerful friends and gets out of the ticket while the other poor sucker pays the fine, that's Lady Justice losing her blindfold again.

If he lets the Kentucky driver go and nails the NY guy, that's unequal enforcement.

Penalties should be equal and consistent too, but I really think that's a different issue.

MLeake · January 24, 2012, 10:09 PM

I consider the charges and penalties to all be part of "enforcement."

I don't really see how they can be divorced.

Al Norris · January 24, 2012, 11:07 PM

No MLeake. It's a separation of powers thing.

Enforcement (charging, ticketing, arresting) is an executive power. The penalty phase is the Judicial power (adjudication of the law).

FrankenMauser · January 24, 2012, 11:46 PM

Quote:

I don't care if they've STARTED doing it or not. They said they're going to and if they do, it's wrong. Just as wrong as New York City's gun laws.

They haven't said anything, except that they hope New Yorkers will be observant of their traffic laws.

Where, exactly, is this statement of intent to target NY citizens, that you keep insisting exists?

MLeake · January 25, 2012, 01:33 AM

Al Norris, I'll accept the separation of powers, but only partially.

The prosecutor had to sign off on the plea deal. That's part of charging.

The judge could have refused to accept it; or, the judge could have thrown out the charge.

But the charging part of enforcement is not being uniformly applied. When the defendant has a legal and PR machine available, NYC is quietly burying the problem.

I'm not naive enough to think this doesn't happen in many places. However, I do suspect that part of the DA's motivation to deal in this particular case is that Meckler could have really thrown up some interesting challenges to NY state's effective ban on on-resident carry, and NYC's track record with regard to FOPA.

(Not that I think Meckler really would have fallen under FOPA, but discovery of other NYC cases could have been interesting.)

BillCA · January 25, 2012, 07:13 AM

I'm in partial agreement with Heyjoe.

A lot of police work involves the officer's discretion (or lack thereof). In most cases, a police officer has the discretion to ignore some offenses, even a felony offense. Pragmatically, an officer may not be able to ignore some things (supervisor is present). But if cops can get creative with "probable cause" statements, they can be equally creative in finding reasons not to enforce a law in a particular instance.

Police, DA's and politicians make exceptions every day for movie stars, athletes, the rich and famous as well as other politicians. "It was a simple mistake" or "There was no intent to break the law" are excuses they give the media. But George who runs your bowling alley can't get word to the mayor or police chief. He has no clout. Here, the state of Tennessee has decided to tell the Mayor or Governor to make an exception.

SwampYankee · January 25, 2012, 08:51 AM

Quote:

They haven't said anything, except that they hope New Yorkers will be observant of their traffic laws.

I agree, and I do not think that they will target New Yorkers. It is just an empty threat. THey know they really can't , they are just trying to poke NY in the eye. Who would drive into Tennessee anyway?

I also do not know what the police in Tennessee are like, but I suspect that they are not championing citizens rights. If all the police in Tennessee were made aware of the resolution from the legislature, would they even care? I doubt they would get angry and go looking of NY drivers. I suspect most of them would side with the NY cops- one less gun in civilian hands means one less gun pointed at them.... That's the general New England police attitude, at least.

Brian Pfleuger · January 25, 2012, 09:08 AM

I guess I'm kind of old school, where I accept the most obvious meaning of a statement in the context it is written and assume that people say what they mean and mean what they say.

Like my example of a duck hunter. If he says "those mallards better be careful today!", can you make a reasonable claim that he's not targeting mallards?
He might shoot other ducks too but it's obvious that he's particularly after mallards.

This is one of the biggest problems in our world today. "It depends what the definition of "is", is." Anything can mean anything. Even when there are no other reasonable conclusions.

And I say again, if they had substituted "African Americans" for "New Yorkers", would anyone believe they weren't intending to target African Americans? The outrage would be immediate, intense... and justified, because without getting into illogical, tortured interpretations, the meaning is indisputable.

bumnote · January 25, 2012, 09:45 AM

Instead of wondering if TN PD will be ticketing NY drivers, here another way of looking at it:
Suppose the shoe was on the other foot and a CCW holder from NY, OR, ME, WI, etc...some state that doesn't have reciprocity with TN was caught carrying. Should the TN police ignore that and let the person go, should the TN prosecutors ignore it as well? I don't think the TN prosecutors would like that line of BS being directed at them any more than NY is. Is TN saying NY shouldn't enforce their local laws because we'd also not enforce ours in the same situation?
I don't think the lady would have faced nearly the amount of trouble she does now had TN politicans either just shut up or been a little more mature in their response. Now she's in the middle of this, which started due to her own actions, and neither side is going to want to back down and loose face. She'd likely have gotten off with a minor ticket and slap on the wrist, depending on her record, but now thanks to all this she's got a better than average chance of being charged and sentenced much more harshly.
Nothing like a politician getting involved in something fairly simple and screwing it all up.

**Tom Servo** · January 25, 2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

And I say again, if they had substituted "African Americans" for "New Yorkers", would anyone believe they weren't intending to target African Americans?

True, there would be outrage. However, "New Yorkers" are not a protected class, and it would be harder to bring litigation on Equal Protection grounds.

It wouldn't be impossible, but it would be difficult. We'd need to show instances in which folks from, say, Georgia were intentionally allowed to speed, but in which New Yorkers received tickets every time.

In practical terms, this is just glorified nose-thumbing, and I sincerely doubt law enforcement would implement it even if asked.

I don't know. Has anyone here actually driven in Tennessee? It's impossible to speed because everyone drives 5 mph below the speed limit in the passing lanes.

Nitesites · January 25, 2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

folks from, say, Georgia were intentionally allowed to speed

You mean we're not? I thought we were. Dang...

ripnbst · January 25, 2012, 12:49 PM

I like it, New Yorkers are already taxed heavily, tax them a little more for driving through the state of TN

I really do hope that officers pull people over, even the "5 over" crowd. People will get ****** but they can't deny they were speeding, and a seldom few will make the trip back for the court date. I've always thought out of state travelers were easy targets, but coming out and stating it is pretty bold.

orangello · January 25, 2012, 01:58 PM

After further thought, i believe the lady arrested was in the wrong and should take whatever her penalty is in NYC (not your city) and deal with it. I do think she should petition to have the felony removed from her record after her sentence/fine/penalty has been served/paid. However, i also think that the authorities in TN should go FAR out of their way to PUBLICLY accomodate her in any way possible that might allow her to continue to carry and own firearms in TN (if that is remotely possible). It also wouldn't hurt my feelings if TN decided not to honor any NY permits or LEO badges as a legal permit to carry from the NYC metro area specifically (however few there may be, permits that is; i hear they have plenty of LEO's).

It is too bad that TN didn't think to immediately claim her as a unpaid "reserve" deputy, as it is my understanding that LEO's are exempted from the NYC bans.

I also think that each and every one of us should make every effort to avoid visiting NYC, avoid buying branded NYC products (I heart NY shirts, etc.), avoid doing any business with any NYC-based businesses, perhaps avoid eating large apples

, and generally do whatever we can to protest the firearms laws of NYC and other such places like Chicago. Personally, i have zero desire to visit either Chicago or NYC, but from now on, i will be certain to blame it on their moronic firearms laws whenever possible. TN's state purchasing agents should make a concerted and very public effort to avoid buying products tainted by NYC for state/public use.

I am often tempted by the job openings i see posted for locations in CA, but i just couldn't give up my rights to be there.

NJgunowner · January 25, 2012, 02:32 PM

And here we go again with "Something happened that I don't like, that city sucks, never go there again!"

Al Norris · January 25, 2012, 02:48 PM

Warnings have been posted. They continue to go unheeded, which is enough to get this thread locked.

Folks, if you can't write what you want, without encountering the "Bad Language Filter," or, you continue to denigrate an entire State/City/etc., then you should stay out of the discussions in this section of TFL.

The indiscriminate use of invectives such as Demon-crat or Repugnican, or otherwise twisting personal or group names, necessarily embodies negative emotional content. Such content leads to emotional arguments wherein rational, logical thinking goes out the window. This is what our opposition does. We must take the High Road, at all times. Therefore, If you cannot use the proper terms/labels for what you are discussing, then don't bother posting at all.

January 24, 2012, 06:56 PM	#52
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I'm not sure I see that as related to enforcement.... They were all arrested. THAT'S enforcement. The end result, that's about money, influence and powerful lawyers, like anything else. I would say that's hardly unique to NYC. In other words, if some guy from Tennessee gets arrested in NYC with a gun and can't afford a good lawyer and gets nailed, while Mr Powerful, Influential TEA partier ALSO gets arrested (equal enforcement) but then has 3 high-power lawyers, is a public figure, throws a stink and gets a $250 fine, well, that's systemic lack of fairness in the penalty system, it's not a difference in "enforcement". Wouldn't be any different in Tennessee with their speeding tickets. Two out-of-staters go by Mr Tennessee Highway Patrol going 95mph. One has a NY plate, the other a Kentucky plate. If he pulls them both over and writes them both tickets for going 95 in a 65, that's equal enforcement. Because one of them happens to have powerful friends and gets out of the ticket while the other poor sucker pays the fine, that's Lady Justice losing her blindfold again. If he lets the Kentucky driver go and nails the NY guy, that's unequal enforcement. Penalties should be equal and consistent too, but I really think that's a different issue. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 25, 2012, 07:13 AM	#57
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	I'm in partial agreement with Heyjoe. A lot of police work involves the officer's discretion (or lack thereof). In most cases, a police officer has the discretion to ignore some offenses, even a felony offense. Pragmatically, an officer may not be able to ignore some things (supervisor is present). But if cops can get creative with "probable cause" statements, they can be equally creative in finding reasons not to enforce a law in a particular instance. Police, DA's and politicians make exceptions every day for movie stars, athletes, the rich and famous as well as other politicians. "It was a simple mistake" or "There was no intent to break the law" are excuses they give the media. But George who runs your bowling alley can't get word to the mayor or police chief. He has no clout. Here, the state of Tennessee has decided to tell the Mayor or Governor to make an exception. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

January 25, 2012, 09:45 AM	#60
bumnote Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2008 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 407	Instead of wondering if TN PD will be ticketing NY drivers, here another way of looking at it: Suppose the shoe was on the other foot and a CCW holder from NY, OR, ME, WI, etc...some state that doesn't have reciprocity with TN was caught carrying. Should the TN police ignore that and let the person go, should the TN prosecutors ignore it as well? I don't think the TN prosecutors would like that line of BS being directed at them any more than NY is. Is TN saying NY shouldn't enforce their local laws because we'd also not enforce ours in the same situation? I don't think the lady would have faced nearly the amount of trouble she does now had TN politicans either just shut up or been a little more mature in their response. Now she's in the middle of this, which started due to her own actions, and neither side is going to want to back down and loose face. She'd likely have gotten off with a minor ticket and slap on the wrist, depending on her record, but now thanks to all this she's got a better than average chance of being charged and sentenced much more harshly. Nothing like a politician getting involved in something fairly simple and screwing it all up. __________________ "And remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die in vain, he died in Washington D.C." - Firesign Theatre

January 25, 2012, 01:58 PM	#64
orangello Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 566	After further thought, i believe the lady arrested was in the wrong and should take whatever her penalty is in NYC (not your city) and deal with it. I do think she should petition to have the felony removed from her record after her sentence/fine/penalty has been served/paid. However, i also think that the authorities in TN should go FAR out of their way to PUBLICLY accomodate her in any way possible that might allow her to continue to carry and own firearms in TN (if that is remotely possible). It also wouldn't hurt my feelings if TN decided not to honor any NY permits or LEO badges as a legal permit to carry from the NYC metro area specifically (however few there may be, permits that is; i hear they have plenty of LEO's). It is too bad that TN didn't think to immediately claim her as a unpaid "reserve" deputy, as it is my understanding that LEO's are exempted from the NYC bans. I also think that each and every one of us should make every effort to avoid visiting NYC, avoid buying branded NYC products (I heart NY shirts, etc.), avoid doing any business with any NYC-based businesses, perhaps avoid eating large apples , and generally do whatever we can to protest the firearms laws of NYC and other such places like Chicago. Personally, i have zero desire to visit either Chicago or NYC, but from now on, i will be certain to blame it on their moronic firearms laws whenever possible. TN's state purchasing agents should make a concerted and very public effort to avoid buying products tainted by NYC for state/public use. I am often tempted by the job openings i see posted for locations in CA, but i just couldn't give up my rights to be there. Last edited by orangello; January 25, 2012 at 02:13 PM.

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January 24, 2012, 10:09 PM	#53
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I consider the charges and penalties to all be part of "enforcement." I don't really see how they can be divorced.

January 24, 2012, 11:07 PM	#54
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	No MLeake. It's a separation of powers thing. Enforcement (charging, ticketing, arresting) is an executive power. The penalty phase is the Judicial power (adjudication of the law).

January 25, 2012, 01:33 AM	#56
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Al Norris, I'll accept the separation of powers, but only partially. The prosecutor had to sign off on the plea deal. That's part of charging. The judge could have refused to accept it; or, the judge could have thrown out the charge. But the charging part of enforcement is not being uniformly applied. When the defendant has a legal and PR machine available, NYC is quietly burying the problem. I'm not naive enough to think this doesn't happen in many places. However, I do suspect that part of the DA's motivation to deal in this particular case is that Meckler could have really thrown up some interesting challenges to NY state's effective ban on on-resident carry, and NYC's track record with regard to FOPA. (Not that I think Meckler really would have fallen under FOPA, but discovery of other NYC cases could have been interesting.)

January 25, 2012, 09:08 AM	#59
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I guess I'm kind of old school, where I accept the most obvious meaning of a statement in the context it is written and assume that people say what they mean and mean what they say. Like my example of a duck hunter. If he says "those mallards better be careful today!", can you make a reasonable claim that he's not targeting mallards? He might shoot other ducks too but it's obvious that he's particularly after mallards. This is one of the biggest problems in our world today. "It depends what the definition of "is", is." Anything can mean anything. Even when there are no other reasonable conclusions. And I say again, if they had substituted "African Americans" for "New Yorkers", would anyone believe they weren't intending to target African Americans? The outrage would be immediate, intense... and justified, because without getting into illogical, tortured interpretations, the meaning is indisputable.

January 25, 2012, 12:49 PM	#63
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	I like it, New Yorkers are already taxed heavily, tax them a little more for driving through the state of TN I really do hope that officers pull people over, even the "5 over" crowd. People will get ****** but they can't deny they were speeding, and a seldom few will make the trip back for the court date. I've always thought out of state travelers were easy targets, but coming out and stating it is pretty bold.

January 25, 2012, 02:32 PM	#65
NJgunowner Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 1,254	And here we go again with "Something happened that I don't like, that city sucks, never go there again!"

January 25, 2012, 02:48 PM	#66
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Warnings have been posted. They continue to go unheeded, which is enough to get this thread locked. Folks, if you can't write what you want, without encountering the "Bad Language Filter," or, you continue to denigrate an entire State/City/etc., then you should stay out of the discussions in this section of TFL. The indiscriminate use of invectives such as Demon-crat or Repugnican, or otherwise twisting personal or group names, necessarily embodies negative emotional content. Such content leads to emotional arguments wherein rational, logical thinking goes out the window. This is what our opposition does. We must take the High Road, at all times. Therefore, If you cannot use the proper terms/labels for what you are discussing, then don't bother posting at all.