Gun Range Sued - Page 2

**Tom Servo** · August 22, 2012, 09:37 PM

Quote:

I was able to confirm that "Happy Hour" was illegal, but only because the lawmakers claim it encourages excessive alcohol consumption, not because it involves discriminatory pricing.

That falls under a different set of circumstances, however. Abolishing Happy Hour for, say, Belgians, might be discriminatory. Abolishing it for everybody isn't.

After extensive, hard-hitting, first-hand research on the subject, I found that Happy Hour is still permitted in my jurisdiction. The judge let me off with time served and community service. I was also required to reimburse the Mayor for his garden gnomes, whose honor I had apparently "so thoroughly besmirched" in the words of the court.

TheGoldenState · August 22, 2012, 09:40 PM

We used to have ladies shoot free Thursdays (great for the GF when I'm paying), now it's half off

MLeake · August 22, 2012, 11:30 PM

A bar in Pensacola used to have "Men Are Pigs" night. Men had to pay a cover charge, and were given a little rubber pig. Women competed to obtain the largest collection of pigs.

Looking back on it, I just feel used... Ok, not really. And no, I wouldn't support an anti-discrimination suit against it.

As far as this thread goes, I blame this stupid case on a few factors:

1) The American public has gone off the deep end with regard to political correctness;
2) Unethical lawyers bring stupid lawsuits if there's any chance of making a dime (note I am not calling all lawyers unethical); and, possibly most important
3) Judges don't seem to use their discretion to quash stupid cases with prejudice nearly as often as they should.

Salmoneye · August 23, 2012, 05:10 AM

Are you *sure* that "Ladies' Night" is an illegal practice in Vermont? I'm finding lots of businesses there doing it.

"Ladies Night" is perfectly legal...

As long as you charge the same for everyone, you can call it whatever you like...

I call it 'Tuesday', and the drinks/admission are the same price for everyone, or you are breaking the law...

ADDING:

Just did Google of vermont "ladie's night" and come up with exactly one 'club' in Burlington that has a promotion that they are saying "No covcer for ladies and $3 cover for gentlemen"...

I will check with my friendly 'Establishment Owner' this afternoon, and get back...He has complained on more than one occasion to me that he is not allowed to run promotions like this unless he does it for the entire day (Happy Hour Law), and that he charges the same for all (DISCRIMINATION; PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS Statute)...

http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/...&Section=04502

ScottRiqui · August 23, 2012, 07:43 AM

I found more than that - I searched "Vermont 'ladies night' discount". Most of what I found were free or reduced cover charges at clubs, but there were a lot of places doing entire events just for women (places like motorcycle dealerships and snowboarding shops), including free/discounted equipment, and even free alcohol.

I just read the "Public Accommodations" statute you linked to, and it's all standard stuff, the same you'd find in any state's statutes. There's nothing in there that would prevent someone from offering a promotional discount based on a customer's sex.

Your "friendly establishment" owner might just be dealing with someone who doesn't understand the law, and has just decided it's not worth it to press the issue.

CowTowner · August 23, 2012, 07:59 AM

Gee, and all this time I thought it was called "sexual discrimination".
Gender is usually a term used with words, not people.

thallub · August 23, 2012, 09:28 AM

IMO: The guy who sued that range is looking for a payday. The purpose of the discount was to encourage ladies to become involved in shooting and self defense.

Salmoneye · August 23, 2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

I found more than that - I searched "Vermont 'ladies night' discount". Most of what I found were free or reduced cover charges at clubs, but there were a lot of places doing entire events just for women (places like motorcycle dealerships and snowboarding shops), including free/discounted equipment, and even free alcohol.

Just got off the phone with a nice lady at the 'Investigations' 800 number...She assured me that 'Ladies Night' specials based on 'gender' are indeed illegal here in Vermont...I asked for chapter and verse, and she gave me the name and number for the County investigator...

No answer, so I eMailed him instead of leaving a message in such a trivial matter...

I'll post when I hear back...

ADDING:

Never said I agreed with the law...I think it's pretty silly actually, but it has been that way so long here most don't remember 'Happy Hour' or "Ladies Night"...

Luger_carbine · August 23, 2012, 10:59 AM

A wig, some lipstick, close shave and a nice dress...

Problem solved.

Salmoneye · August 23, 2012, 11:01 AM

You forgot the stylish heels and matching clutch purse...

Double Naught Spy · August 23, 2012, 11:20 AM

You know the sad thing is that the range could have avoided being sued by having a similar men's day, but they did not.

Funny thing, even the terminology is sexist.

Quote:

A Maryland man has filed a lawsuit against an area gun range claiming "reverse sexism."

- from the article cited in post#4

If the act favors men, it is sexism. If it favors women, reverse sexism. This, despite the infraction being the same act. If a man rapes a woman, it is rape, but if a woman rapes a man, is it reverse rape? Of course not. There really is no reverse sexism.

gunuser · August 23, 2012, 11:51 AM

Whats BS about this lawsuit is that the range DOES offer a discount to military and security and police officers. The guy filing the lawsuit is a "special police" official. He would have been entitled to a shooting discount. But he wants a FREE day at the range instead.

thallub · August 23, 2012, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Whats BS about this lawsuit is that the range DOES offer a discount to military and security and police officers. The guy filing the lawsuit is a "special police" official. He would have been entitled to a shooting discount. But he wants a FREE day at the range instead.

Thanks for the rest of the story.

ScottRiqui · August 23, 2012, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Whats BS about this lawsuit is that the range DOES offer a discount to military and security and police officers. The guy filing the lawsuit is a "special police" official. He would have been entitled to a shooting discount. But he wants a FREE day at the range instead.

Maybe, maybe not. The article describes him as a "special police officer", which is another way of saying "private security guard". Maybe he was denied the police officer discount and this is really what the lawsuit is all about - who knows?

Oysterboy · August 23, 2012, 12:25 PM

Quote:

A wig, some lipstick, close shave and a nice dress...

"Look at that lady over there! Her purse doesn't match her shoes, heavens forbid!"

"That's no lady girls, it's a poser!!"

Salmoneye · August 23, 2012, 12:28 PM

The 'County Investigator' has referred me to the Vermont AG

I'll post when I hear from the AG's office...

pgdion · August 23, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Does that mean bars can be sued for offering ladies night discounts?

They already have ... and they lost.

(Luckily I'm married so I don't frequent bars and if i do, the number of lady clientele do not matter ... I'm just there for the beer.)

armoredman · August 23, 2012, 02:34 PM

Luger - you first.

**Tom Servo** · August 23, 2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

You forgot the stylish heels and matching clutch purse...

Alright, guys. I'm pretty sure there's a forum rule about cross-dressing. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but heaven help us, no fishnets!

**Aguila Blanca** · August 23, 2012, 11:34 PM

Quote:

You mean we can't discriminate between pronouns?

The laws don't prohibit discrimination on the basis of pronouns. The laws DO prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender.

armoredman · August 24, 2012, 12:04 AM

The confusion is the word gender refers to words in language that have a gender bias, such as the Spanish word for female friend is Amiga, while the same word for a male friend is Amigo. The physical difference between man and woman is more correctly called sex. Not as in 'let's get down and sweaty', but as in "sexual characteristics of".
I've heard it called gender many times, and strictly according to the rules of English, that is actually incorrect. Then again, so is "ain't", and I ain't givin' that one up!

Salmoneye · August 24, 2012, 11:55 AM

I stand corrected...And rather stunned actually...

Below is the answer I received from DLC:

Hello Xxxx,

There is no law against offering a Ladies "vs" Men's night theme or a different cover charge. However, any drink specials have to be an all day price. A happy hour or special drink prices offered at certain times of the day is against the law.

Please contact the Human Right Commission for any information regarding gender related issues. We have no law or regulation against the gender of what licensed establishments offer. Their contact information is:

Vermont Human Rights Commission
14-16 Baldwin Street
Montpelier, VT 05633-6301
800-416-2010, x25 (voice)
802-828-2481 (fax)
877-294-9200 (TTY)

[email protected]

Thank you.

Angela Raycraft
Administrative Assistant
Department of Liquor Control
13 Green Mountain Drive
Montpelier, VT 05620-4501
(802) 828-2339 phone
(802) 828-1031 fax
[email protected]

I have now directed the question to the Vermont Human Rights Commission

Double Naught Spy · August 24, 2012, 12:30 PM

Reading through this again, I have to agree that the suit doesn't seem to be above board. The person suing does not appear to be actually trying to rectify some sort of wrong that had actually done harm. That doesn't mean the suit isn't valid, only that I don't see where any serious issue is being resolved by it, even if it can be won.

Given the problems we have in the world, not all fights need to fought even if they can be fought after somebody suffered an offense that is pretty meaningless.

zukiphile · August 25, 2012, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armoredman

The confusion is the word gender refers to words in language that have a gender bias, such as the Spanish word for female friend is Amiga, while the same word for a male friend is Amigo. The physical difference between man and woman is more correctly called sex. Not as in 'let's get down and sweaty', but as in "sexual characteristics of".
I've heard it called gender many times, and strictly according to the rules of English, that is actually incorrect.

Gender, which has more than one definition, can include the concept of sex. Gender can also refer to a characteristic of words, i.e. masculine, feminine or neuter. More controversial, there is a sociological definition of gender that holds our gender roles to be largely arbitrary.

That the word has at least three distinguishable definitions doesn't mean one is incorrect. "Gender" should work well enough in this context because the discrimination alleged is unlikely to involve a physical exam or chromosomal analysis.

house · August 25, 2012, 08:57 AM

Some guys did this in San Diego sued a few bars in downtown and I think they won. This was a few years back.

August 22, 2012, 09:40 PM	#27
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	We used to have ladies shoot free Thursdays (great for the GF when I'm paying), now it's half off __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...

August 23, 2012, 05:10 AM	#29
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	*Are you sure* that "Ladies' Night" is an illegal practice in Vermont? I'm finding lots of businesses there doing it. "Ladies Night" is perfectly legal... As long as you charge the same for everyone, you can call it whatever you like... I call it 'Tuesday', and the drinks/admission are the same price for everyone, or you are breaking the law... ADDING: Just did Google of vermont "ladie's night"** and come up with exactly one 'club' in Burlington that has a promotion that they are saying "No covcer for ladies and $3 cover for gentlemen"... I will check with my friendly 'Establishment Owner' this afternoon, and get back...He has complained on more than one occasion to me that he is not allowed to run promotions like this unless he does it for the entire day (Happy Hour Law), and that he charges the same for all (DISCRIMINATION; PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS Statute)... http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/...&Section=04502 Last edited by Salmoneye; August 23, 2012 at 05:51 AM.

August 23, 2012, 07:43 AM	#30
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	I found more than that - I searched "Vermont 'ladies night' discount". Most of what I found were free or reduced cover charges at clubs, but there were a lot of places doing entire events just for women (places like motorcycle dealerships and snowboarding shops), including free/discounted equipment, and even free alcohol. I just read the "Public Accommodations" statute you linked to, and it's all standard stuff, the same you'd find in any state's statutes. There's nothing in there that would prevent someone from offering a promotional discount based on a customer's sex. Your "friendly establishment" owner might just be dealing with someone who doesn't understand the law, and has just decided it's not worth it to press the issue. Last edited by ScottRiqui; August 23, 2012 at 09:35 AM.

August 23, 2012, 07:59 AM	#31
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 1,747	Gee, and all this time I thought it was called "sexual discrimination". Gender is usually a term used with words, not people. __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor *“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......”* President John F. Kennedy

August 23, 2012, 09:28 AM	#32
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	IMO: The guy who sued that range is looking for a payday. The purpose of the discount was to encourage ladies to become involved in shooting and self defense. Last edited by thallub; August 23, 2012 at 12:59 PM.

August 22, 2012, 11:30 PM	#28
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	A bar in Pensacola used to have "Men Are Pigs" night. Men had to pay a cover charge, and were given a little rubber pig. Women competed to obtain the largest collection of pigs. Looking back on it, I just feel used... Ok, not really. And no, I wouldn't support an anti-discrimination suit against it. As far as this thread goes, I blame this stupid case on a few factors: 1) The American public has gone off the deep end with regard to political correctness; 2) Unethical lawyers bring stupid lawsuits if there's any chance of making a dime (note I am not calling all lawyers unethical); and, possibly most important 3) Judges don't seem to use their discretion to quash stupid cases with prejudice nearly as often as they should.

August 23, 2012, 10:59 AM	#34
Luger_carbine Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2012 Posts: 389	A wig, some lipstick, close shave and a nice dress... Problem solved.

August 23, 2012, 11:01 AM	#35
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	You forgot the stylish heels and matching clutch purse...

August 23, 2012, 11:51 AM	#37
gunuser Member Join Date: April 8, 2006 Posts: 25	Whats BS about this lawsuit is that the range DOES offer a discount to military and security and police officers. The guy filing the lawsuit is a "special police" official. He would have been entitled to a shooting discount. But he wants a FREE day at the range instead.

August 23, 2012, 12:28 PM	#41
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	The 'County Investigator' has referred me to the Vermont AG I'll post when I hear from the AG's office...

August 23, 2012, 02:34 PM	#43
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	Luger - you first.

August 24, 2012, 12:04 AM	#46
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	The confusion is the word gender refers to words in language that have a gender bias, such as the Spanish word for female friend is Amiga, while the same word for a male friend is Amigo. The physical difference between man and woman is more correctly called sex. Not as in 'let's get down and sweaty', but as in "sexual characteristics of". I've heard it called gender many times, and strictly according to the rules of English, that is actually incorrect. Then again, so is "ain't", and I ain't givin' that one up!

August 24, 2012, 11:55 AM	#47
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	I stand corrected...And rather stunned actually... Below is the answer I received from DLC: Hello Xxxx, There is no law against offering a Ladies "vs" Men's night theme or a different cover charge. However, any drink specials have to be an all day price. A happy hour or special drink prices offered at certain times of the day is against the law. Please contact the Human Right Commission for any information regarding gender related issues. We have no law or regulation against the gender of what licensed establishments offer. Their contact information is: Vermont Human Rights Commission 14-16 Baldwin Street Montpelier, VT 05633-6301 800-416-2010, x25 (voice) 802-828-2481 (fax) 877-294-9200 (TTY) [email protected] Thank you. Angela Raycraft Administrative Assistant Department of Liquor Control 13 Green Mountain Drive Montpelier, VT 05620-4501 (802) 828-2339 phone (802) 828-1031 fax [email protected] I have now directed the question to the Vermont Human Rights Commission

August 24, 2012, 12:30 PM	#48
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Reading through this again, I have to agree that the suit doesn't seem to be above board. The person suing does not appear to be actually trying to rectify some sort of wrong that had actually done harm. That doesn't mean the suit isn't valid, only that I don't see where any serious issue is being resolved by it, even if it can be won. Given the problems we have in the world, not all fights need to fought even if they can be fought after somebody suffered an offense that is pretty meaningless. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

August 25, 2012, 08:57 AM	#50
house Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1999 Location: AZ/CA Posts: 369	Some guys did this in San Diego sued a few bars in downtown and I think they won. This was a few years back.