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Old August 2, 2005, 10:27 PM   #1
TomNash
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Heavy recoil springs for heavy handloads?

Hi. I recently have been experimenting with handloads for the .32ACP cartridge in a Browning-type pistol. So far, I have gotten to 2.6gr of Vihtavouri 310, using Federal 100 primers and Magtech cases. I estimate the velocity out of a 2.75" barrel at 1150 ft/sec. These loads kick like a mule and buldge the case and this leads me to my question today:

Would using a stronger recoil spring keep the cases in the chamber longer and thereby avoid the buldging effect on the cartridge case? Does anyone tinker with the spring rate/force on their guns?

Thank you. Tom
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Old August 3, 2005, 12:44 AM   #2
Leftoverdj
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Common practice with 1911s, Tom. You might study aftermarket 1911 parts to figger out how to cobble up a buffer, too. Ken Waters has a really good chapter on .32 ACP in locked breech pistols in "Pet Loads". He used a Star. Article is a bit dated and won't have VV powders, though.
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Old August 3, 2005, 09:39 AM   #3
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Tom, I wouldn't "estimate" velocities any more than I'd estimate chamber pressure. Sounds like you're just loading too hot. I do adjust recoil spring weight to loads that I'm shooting, but not because of bulging cases.

I was discussing working up handgun ammo loads with a techie at one of the powder manufacturers a few years back and he said that with handgun ammo, as opposed to rifle ammo, sometimes the only sign of overpressure is the loss of one's eyes and/or fingers.
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Old August 3, 2005, 08:12 PM   #4
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Zekewolf, thank you for the advice. I will admit that the decision to work 'outside of the box' in regards to pistol loads is somewhat of a bad decision. But... My aim was to find a bullet that would both expand to a diameter larger than 0.312" and penetrate 12" in ballistic gelatin, when fired from such a short barrel. That is how I justified the extra risk .

Tom
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Old August 4, 2005, 12:49 PM   #5
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Tom: Remember the old computer adage, "garbage in, garbage out?"
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Old August 4, 2005, 04:31 PM   #6
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Hehehe... Which brings up another adage : "A man can only try" .

Seriously though, I think an FBI/IWBA compliant .32ACP can be made by taking a 60gr. Hornady XTP and soldering/welding/brazing (etc) a 5-10gr. mass to the back of the bullet and loading it up as fast as you can go.

I say this as a result of my experience with Federal Hydrashok in .32ACP. The sweet-spot on the velocity scale appeared to be 835 ft/sec when I tested it in ballistic gelatin. Any faster than that and the bullet really expanded and penetration fell off from 10" to about 9". I then really began loading these rounds, with 2.5gr of V-310 and the velocity spiked to 1101 ft/sec. These penetrated about 8" and really sheared off pieces of lead and jacket.

But the Hornady 60gr. is much tougher of a bullet than the .32ACP hydrashok - so much so that expansion is usually not experienced with this round in a short barreled .32. So, I am thinking that with a little lower velocity (to reduce the fluid drag on the bullet), a higher weight for more momentum, and a maximum powder charge there may be a chance. Maybe.

Tom
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Old August 4, 2005, 06:16 PM   #7
Zekewolf
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Good luck, Tom.
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Old August 8, 2005, 08:08 PM   #8
grendelbane
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Quote:
Would using a stronger recoil spring keep the cases in the chamber longer and thereby avoid the buldging effect on the cartridge case?
The simple answer is no. Stronger springs will help to reduce the rearward velocity of the slide, but will increase the forward velocity as it chambers a fresh round. They will not prevent bulging of cases.

If your cases are bulged, then the pressure is too high for safety. The way to keep the case in the chamber longer is to add weight to the slide. This is not easy to do.

VV 310 is a very fast powder. If I were to hot rod a .32 ACP, I would probably try Power Pistol. You will probably get higher velocities before you reach case bulging pressure. Alliant lists load data for Power Pistol.

Years ago, some intrepid experimenters converted their Keltech P32s to take a shortened .30 carbine case. The thicker brass enabled them to load to higher pressures, and they used a stronger double recoil spring system.

Seems like a lot of work to me.
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Old August 8, 2005, 08:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Seriously though, I think an FBI/IWBA compliant .32ACP can be made by taking a 60gr. Hornady XTP and soldering/welding/brazing (etc) a 5-10gr. mass to the back of the bullet and loading it up as fast as you can go.
FWIW, I have loaded the 60gr GoldDot to 1100fps in a P32 using Powerpistol powder. I prefer the GD to the XTP at that weight because the GD is longer. You can seat it out longer, making room for more powder. In the same gun, I had 85gr XTPs going 950fps. With that load though, I was having recoil initiated problems such as the trigger pin backing out (oddly enough, it felt "softer" than the 60gr load).

I only tested penetration with the 60gr gold dot, and then only in water jugs. That load penetrated 2.5 full jugs, splitting the first one wide open. The bullet expanded to nearly .5". I used to have it on my desk, but tossed it a few months ago.

Edit to add: I used Unique for the 85gr load.

Chris
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Old August 9, 2005, 07:10 PM   #10
TomNash
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Could I ask what weight of Unique you used? I have also used the Golddot in 60gr. and very much liked the expansion. But the expansion is what limited the penetration when I shot it in ballistic gelatin, kind of a bummer because the bullet is such a performer at its intended velocities ...

Good deal about that 85gr XTP - did you happen to see if that one would expand in the water? If the bullet can safely be pushed to those velocities and it expands to around 0.45" , then I will bet the bank that we have a winner. I still have my ballistic gelatin equipment and limited powder available to confirm this (as well as a Kel-Tec P32) ...

What do you think ... ?

Tom
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Old August 9, 2005, 07:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Could I ask what weight of Unique you used?
I honestly do not recall. I started at 2.5grs (which was way too light, it barely cycled the gun) and worked up in roughly .2gr increments. I never did any penetration testing with it.

At 950fps, I wasn't getting any pressure signs. I think I could've topped 1000fps, but the gun wasn't holding together. The trigger pin (the one that goes up inside the trigger) was backing out, tying up the gun after 3 shots.

Chris
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Old August 9, 2005, 07:35 PM   #12
TomNash
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Chris - Do you still have any of these rounds? Can you make one max (or close to max) pressure one and shoot it into a cardboard OJ carton? I think there might be some interested parties on this board with respect to finding a deep penetrating and expanding JHP for this caliber.

Tom
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Old August 13, 2005, 05:40 PM   #13
mtnbkr
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Chris - Do you still have any of these rounds? Can you make one max (or close to max) pressure one and shoot it into a cardboard OJ carton? I think there might be some interested parties on this board with respect to finding a deep penetrating and expanding JHP for this caliber.
Sorry for the delay, I never got a notification...

I no longer have any of these rounds, nor do I even have my 32acp dies. I sold all that stuff off after I decided to concentrate on my high volume cartridges rather than load for everything.

If you're set up to load 32acp AND you're careful (move slow, use a chronograph, etc), it's real easy to duplicate my work. Heck, most of my work is based off the previous attempts by another TFL member named Clark. He's gone further than I have in fact...

Start low, move in small increments, and pay attention to what your pressure signs and accuracy tell you. In my experience, when pressures got too high, accuracy went into the toilet with the 32acp.

Chris
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Old August 13, 2005, 07:49 PM   #14
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mtnbkr - thanks for the response. That's OK about the handloads, I still have my dies and equipment etc so I might just do it. Yeah, if that is the same Clark who posts occasionally on the KTOG, then I definately know who you are talking about. It's always nice to meet another 'habitual line-stepper', like him.

As you might have experienced, there have been plenty of naysayers regarding non-standard handgun reloads and my work with the .32ACP. What they say kinda gives me the willies. Anyways, I have the SAAMI chamber dimensions for the .32NAA cartridge and am looking to convert a Kel-Tec P3AT to said caliber in the coming months. This will give me free reign to 'safely' push the limits of .32ACP bullets and for those wanting to push the envelope, I will definately post the results of the .32NAA bullets in gelatin.

Thank you.

Tom
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