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June 9, 2011, 08:29 AM | #1 |
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Speaking of Straw Purchases...
Hi everyone,
I just finished reading the thread on gifting and straw purchases. It brings up a good question that I have. Here is the situation: A friend and I were talking the other day (we both live in NY). He has a relative in North Carolina. He was visiting his relative when he walked into a gunstore in NC, and found a pistol that he wanted. The store told him that since he was not a NC resident, they could not sell him the pistol (he has a NY pistol permit). A day later, he brought his relative into the gunstore to buy that pistol. His relative kept posession of the pistol in NC until he got back home and filed the appropriate paperwork to legally take possesion of it in NY. When his NY pistol permit was amended and the pistol from NC was put on it, he had his relative send him the pistol through the proper FFL channels. Is this a straw purchase?? -George |
June 9, 2011, 09:11 AM | #2 |
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I'd vote YES because the relative bought it with the specific intention of transferring it to the other guy AND with the intention of specifically avoiding a purchase restriction.
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June 9, 2011, 09:35 AM | #3 | ||
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Your situation fits both definitions so yes it's a straw purchase. However to convict they would need to prove intent at the time of the sale. BTW the legal way to do it would be to just buy it and have the NC dealer ship it to a NY dealer and the actual buyer do the transfer in NY.
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June 9, 2011, 10:11 AM | #4 |
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Meh, since it went through a NY ffl they could always use the NC guy bought it, then SOLD it to the NY guy. Nothing illegal about that.
It's intent and proving that intent that causes the problems. |
June 9, 2011, 08:21 PM | #5 |
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The North Carolina dealer could easily have sold you the pistol and shipped it to your New York FFL holder, who could then have completed the genuine official paper work.
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June 10, 2011, 06:26 AM | #6 |
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Technically, he did not lie on the form as he was the person receiving the firearm since he maintained possession then transferred it over through a legal transferal in NY. I think the key thing here is the additional 4473 that was filled out in NY for a transfer.
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June 10, 2011, 07:01 AM | #7 | |
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June 10, 2011, 08:17 AM | #8 |
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I assume the OP filled out a 4473 in NY.
I would say it is a violation of the law. In this case I doubt you would be prosecuted because the actual buyer filled out a 4473 and went through a background check. In the future talk to the dealer, pay for the pistol, and have it shipped to a dealer in NY. This way you are 100% within the law. |
June 10, 2011, 09:38 AM | #9 |
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Not necessarily a straw purchase, but maybe a case for selling without a license.
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June 10, 2011, 10:19 AM | #10 |
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Except for question 11--a straw purchase (my definition) is purchasing a gun for someone who cannot legally purchase themselves. How did this fit?
I am not emp by any govt agency and never have been, other than the US ARMY. Couple yrs ago, I purchased (paid for) a handgun from a gunshop in CO. They shipped it it MI and I completed (purchased the gun?) the paperwork in MI. |
June 10, 2011, 11:58 AM | #11 | |
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June 10, 2011, 04:44 PM | #12 |
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Hi everyone,
Im the OP on this thread. Although the ultimate intent was for my friend to ultimately own the pistol, his relative maintained possession of the pistol UNTIL the proper paperwork could be filled out in NY. The way he sees it (and I tend to agree), is that the relative purchased and possessed it legally, and then when the paperwork was complete in NY and was sent via FFL, that to was a legal transaction. In fact, the way I see it, every step of the way was legal. It cannot be determined from a legal standpoint the mindset of the relative for the original purchase. All steps in the process were legal. The relative knew that he was going to transfer it legally, so my friends arguement was that it was NOT a straw purchase. What say you??? -George |
June 10, 2011, 05:43 PM | #13 | ||
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The relative lied when he answered question 11. I know it, you know it and he knows it.
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June 10, 2011, 05:57 PM | #14 | |
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June 10, 2011, 06:18 PM | #15 |
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well, im not worried of the legal ramifications due to it being on the internet. However, what I am interested in is if given this exact situation, can anyone get in trouble? Remeber, the gun was purchased legal and transfered to NY legal. A straw purchase is illegal. That means someone can be in trouble with the law if they perform such an act. Since the relative purchased it legal and transfered it to my friend legally, nobody can be in trouble. So, how is this a straw purchase?
-George |
June 10, 2011, 06:27 PM | #16 |
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Yes, your relative could be prosecuted for lying on the 4473.
I doubt the US Attorney's office in NC would prosecute in this case. The ultimate trasnfer went through an FFL in NY where you filled out the appropriate paperwork and underwent a background check. While it is unlikely that someone will get in trouble the fact remains that they could. |
June 10, 2011, 06:50 PM | #17 | ||
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At issue would be the entire information block questions 1-10, 11a, and 13. Let us consult the opinion of the BATFE. Quote:
Are the ATF and their regs stupid? Yes. Does it matter how stupid they are? Not really.
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June 10, 2011, 07:24 PM | #18 | ||
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A straw purchase is simply lying to the first question on the 4473 -- "are you the actual purchaser?". See the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005, at page 165 (emphasis added): Quote:
So George, you just fingered your NY friend and his NC relative on the World Wide Web for engaging in a straw firearm purchase. |
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June 10, 2011, 07:29 PM | #19 |
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You were prohibited from buying the firearm because you were out of state...
You gave your friend the money to buy the gun for you He lied on the form when he said he was the actual purchaser because he was purchasing it for you because you were ineligible. straw man purchase. Its a wonder they made the sale... I would not have.
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June 10, 2011, 07:41 PM | #20 | |
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June 10, 2011, 07:44 PM | #21 |
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The law should change, straw purchase should not be illegal if both partys are CCW permit holders, or in the case bringing it back to another state.
It should be illegal for anyone to buy gun(s) at a store then turn around and sell them NIB privately for profit. I cannot see how it's a "straw purchase" if both partys are legally able to own/buy guns. But the law is the law right now so I vote straw, even though it went through a FFL. :barf: Why didn't he just buy it in NY, order from online ship to FFL? |
June 10, 2011, 07:55 PM | #22 | |
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The crime is making false statements in connection with the acquisition of a firearm.
The actual statute is 18 USC 922 (a)(6) Quote:
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June 11, 2011, 07:31 AM | #23 |
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Hi everyone,
OK, so I am understanding a bit better. Im just trying to play devils advocate here. In the original conversation with my friend, I had told him at face value that it WAS a straw purchase. HIS arguement was what I had posted in the original thread. Playing devils advocate again, what is the difference between the relative buying it for himself, having a change of heart 15 minutes later, and selling it to someone who can lawfully own a pistol versus what actually happened here? -George |
June 11, 2011, 08:34 AM | #24 |
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You could have just had the NC FFL send it to an NY FFL.
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June 11, 2011, 08:38 AM | #25 |
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The length of time one owns it prior to transfering it would be used as evidence to prove the intent of the person who filled out the form.
While it is possible to have a change of heart in 15 minutes it would be a hard sell to a jury. |
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