I messed up - need advice

overthere · July 20, 2012, 05:43 PM

I am relatively new to reloading. I have reloaded a total of 350 rounds of 9mm and around 200 rounds of .223.

I was seating bullets for a batch of 40 rounds of .223 - 55 gr FMJ and I did not notice I had set the bullet seating die incorrectly. I ended up squishing the shoulder on about 30 out of the 40 rounds (see pictures).

I do not think I can shoot these rounds since most of them would not chamber (I am shooting a Savage 223 bolt action). I have a bullet puller so I am planning on pulling the bullets to at least salvage those.

If I pull the bullets, can I salvage the brass by trying to resize them? If so, how would I safely remove the live primers? Or can I resize them with the live primer in the case if I remove the decapping pin on the resize die?

Some of the rounds (about 10 of them) look OK and when I measure the shoulder width they are around 0.354 to 0.358 which is wider than the case spec for 223 but in line with spent brass that I have (the ones that are obviously deformed are 0.361 and wider).

Would the ones that are 0.354 - 0.358 be safe to fire assuming they chamber? Or would the out of spec shoulder size increase pressures?

So to summarize:

1. If I remove the bullets and the primers, do you think the brass can be salvaged and resized? If so, how would I safely remove the live primers? Or can I resize them with the live primer in the case if I remove the decapping pin on the resize die?

2. Would the cartridges that look OK be safe to fire as long as they chamber in my bolt action rifle?

Thanks

praetorian97 · July 20, 2012, 05:50 PM

Measure after you run them through the resizer die again. From the pic the damage does not look too bad. But then again I cant zoom in on it.

As far as removing the live primer, you should have seen me during my first live primer removal. You would have thought I was going into a nuclear vault.

Do you have a dedicated universal deprimer die? I love my Lee deprimer die. Deprime with that slowly and then lube/resize them with your normal die.

overthere · July 20, 2012, 05:57 PM

I do have the Lee universal depriming die. So that one is safe to use on a live primer (assuming very careful, light and steady pressure)?

flashhole · July 20, 2012, 06:06 PM

If you can't chamber the round don't do anything but pull the bullets and trash the brass. They will not resize properly. You can salvage the powder and the bullets.

If you can chamber the round (without excessive force) they will fire-form to be used again.

overthere · July 20, 2012, 06:53 PM

I just pulled the 40 bullets, it was a major pain. 20 of the cases were PMC and they just required one or two measured strikes with the bullet puller.

The other 20 were Remington and I had to channel Thor to get the bullets out of those suckers.

So now I have the bullets, powder and the 40 empty cases with live primers.

So far one person suggested de-priming and resizing, another for chucking the brass. Anyone else have experience with this situation that could weigh in on it? If the brass is salvageable and removing the primers is safe I would like to do so. But if the chance of running it through the resizing die in nonexistant then I would just as soon dispose of the brass.

Please advice.

Thanks

the led farmer · July 20, 2012, 06:56 PM

pull the batch don't shoot them. salvage the bullet, powder and primer and toss the brass, not worth diddling with it then chalk it up to lesson learned.

take out your instructions and re read them, then re set your dies according to the instructions, then re read your instructions and double check your dies.

btw are you using the lee factory crimp die?

overthere · July 20, 2012, 06:58 PM

Yes, the Lee factory crimp die, why?

NESHOOTER · July 20, 2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Yes, the Lee factory crimp die, why?

I see your putting too much crimp on those babies, for a bolt shooter and you say those are FMJ's look like something else. (I use a LFCD but no where the amount you use).

the led farmer · July 20, 2012, 07:28 PM

ha ha, i knew it. i joined this forum a few weeks ago because i was researching a different question and basically the same thing came up about over crimping.

i use the lee classic turret press and lee dies, (9mm and .223 go figure) with the fcd, i have had excellent results with lee precision except the first batch of .223 i made where i buckled the shoulder just like yourself and many others. i went to the range and the first cartridge got stuck in the chamber. i learned three lessons that day:

1. don't load in poor lighting

2. don't crank 'em out until i am SURE the dies are set correctly and the finished round is where i want it

3. the chamber test never fails

i did what i recommend to you, i read, then re read then set then re read and re set again until i got it right. it's very easy to over do it and mangle brass, i bet when you pulled those bullets the cannelure was very pronounced vs. an unseated/uncrimped bullet of yours. the crimp should be subtle, just look at commercial factory crimped ammo, it's barely noticeable. a factory cannelure is also subtle.

the example i gave in another thread is anyone who has mangled a piece of brass with pliers knows how easy it is to deform the brass. anyone who has gotten their finger caught in the press ram knows how much pressure is exerted on the case, (if you don't believe me GENTLY stick your finger between the ram and a die, i promise you won't go a full stroke). if you don't have the die seated correctly it's gonna mangle the cartridge.

if you haven't already check out all the video's

lee precision help videos

overthere · July 20, 2012, 07:29 PM

You are correct, they are SP bullets (JHP), not FMJ, I made an incorrect statement about the type of bullets in the original post.

flashhole · July 20, 2012, 07:50 PM

You can try and salvage the brass and hope nothing goes wrong when you pull the trigger on the round made from compromised salvaged components. You can also go out and pee on an electric fence or take the word of folks who tell you peeing on an electric fence is a bad thing to do. Your choice.

overthere · July 20, 2012, 08:15 PM

Haha, I think I'll pass on peeing on electric fences.

I did however de-prime the active primers without issue. I found other postings on this topic and I did the 'towel over press, de-priming gently with double eye protection and ear protection' and it went well. This was with the universal de-primer die which does not touch the brass.

After de-priming I ran the brass through the full-size re-sizing die and that brought them back to spec nicely. If this had been range brass I probably would not have bothered but these 40 are once-fired by myself, in the same bolt-action gun so I know it has not been subjected to a lot.

Now I just need to figure out what to do with the 40 live primers I pulled. Maybe I'll just use them again... I kid, I kid!

overthere · July 20, 2012, 08:19 PM

Led farmer, thanks for the advise, I will definitely check, double-check and then re-check the dies from here on + check the first few cartridges before proceeding with the rest. Funny thing was I did continuously caliper-check the rounds for COAL while seating the bullets, now I know I need to pay more attention to the shoulder integrity as well.

Good learning experience for sure, just glad it happened to the 40 rounds I did today and not the 80 I did yesterday...

the led farmer · July 20, 2012, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Funny thing was I did continuously caliper-check the rounds for COAL while seating the bullets

ya buddy, been there done that! i thought i was hot **** because my coal was spot on. ha ha

btw what press are you using?

Quote:

Maybe I'll just use them again... I kid, I kid!

if you are kidding, don't there is nothing wrong with those primers. use em again

overthere · July 20, 2012, 08:46 PM

The RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme, really like it so far.

serf 'rett · July 20, 2012, 08:58 PM

I'd put the primers into the next batch of practice ammo

overthere · July 20, 2012, 09:22 PM

Just loaded up 10 of the cases and they came out just fine. Was definitely the sizing die that messed them up the last time (or rather me setting the die incorrectly).

Of course the led tip on the bullets were smashed on just about all of them from the force of hitting the inside of the bullet puller so they'll probably fly all over the place. Going to the range tomorrow so it will be interesting to see how they place.

Interesting that the unspent primers can be reused, I did not use them on these 10 cases but I'll put them into the next batch.

Sport45 · July 20, 2012, 09:41 PM

The factory crimp die didn't do that. Neither did the sizing die. My guess is that happened in the seating die because they were hitting the crimp ring. Back the body of the seating die out so that it's not trying to crimp if you use the FCD later. (I woudn't crimp any of them.)

If you do crimp. Make sure all are trimmed to the same length.

I'd save the bullets, powder, and primers and toss the brass in my recycle bucket. Use the primers for range work. I've never had a re-inserted primer fail, but I wouldn't use them for competition or hunting.

overthere · July 20, 2012, 09:43 PM

Sport45, you are right, I meant to say the seating die, not the sizing die.

1stmar · July 20, 2012, 11:19 PM

Unless you lubed the cases to deprime, no reason you can't reuse the primers

farmerboy · July 20, 2012, 11:44 PM

You could have pulled your decapping pin and resized without your pin and then your brass would have been ready. No need to decap, and deprime and then reprime. But all in all it was a good lesson.

the led farmer · July 21, 2012, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Where are you guys getting this info? Is this what Lee prints on how to set up a crimp?

yes:

3 die set

4 die set

now, they both lead to the same result, because it boils down to the same thing. which is right? the one that doesn't mangle the cartridge of course!

overthere · July 21, 2012, 10:40 PM

FWIW the 10 rounds I loaded yesterday shot great even though the varmint tip was flattened when the bullets were pulled.

Of the two groups of four (the magazine holds 4 rounds), the best one had all four within an inch at 100 yards with my bolt action, unsupported with bipod & 3x9 Nikon scope (see attachment).

The cases look great, I had a light load of 20.5 gr H322.

July 20, 2012, 06:06 PM	#4
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	If you can't chamber the round don't do anything but pull the bullets and trash the brass. They will not resize properly. You can salvage the powder and the bullets. If you can chamber the round (without excessive force) they will fire-form to be used again. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

July 20, 2012, 07:50 PM	#11
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	You can try and salvage the brass and hope nothing goes wrong when you pull the trigger on the round made from compromised salvaged components. You can also go out and pee on an electric fence or take the word of folks who tell you peeing on an electric fence is a bad thing to do. Your choice. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

July 20, 2012, 08:58 PM	#16
serf 'rett Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Stuttgart, AR Posts: 1,569	I'd put the primers into the next batch of practice ammo __________________ A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.

July 20, 2012, 09:41 PM	#18
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The factory crimp die didn't do that. Neither did the sizing die. My guess is that happened in the seating die because they were hitting the crimp ring. Back the body of the seating die out so that it's not trying to crimp if you use the FCD later. (I woudn't crimp any of them.) If you do crimp. Make sure all are trimmed to the same length. I'd save the bullets, powder, and primers and toss the brass in my recycle bucket. Use the primers for range work. I've never had a re-inserted primer fail, but I wouldn't use them for competition or hunting. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 20, 2012, 05:50 PM	#2
praetorian97 Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2011 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 455	Measure after you run them through the resizer die again. From the pic the damage does not look too bad. But then again I cant zoom in on it. As far as removing the live primer, you should have seen me during my first live primer removal. You would have thought I was going into a nuclear vault. Do you have a dedicated universal deprimer die? I love my Lee deprimer die. Deprime with that slowly and then lube/resize them with your normal die.

July 20, 2012, 05:57 PM	#3
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	I do have the Lee universal depriming die. So that one is safe to use on a live primer (assuming very careful, light and steady pressure)?

July 20, 2012, 06:53 PM	#5
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	I just pulled the 40 bullets, it was a major pain. 20 of the cases were PMC and they just required one or two measured strikes with the bullet puller. The other 20 were Remington and I had to channel Thor to get the bullets out of those suckers. So now I have the bullets, powder and the 40 empty cases with live primers. So far one person suggested de-priming and resizing, another for chucking the brass. Anyone else have experience with this situation that could weigh in on it? If the brass is salvageable and removing the primers is safe I would like to do so. But if the chance of running it through the resizing die in nonexistant then I would just as soon dispose of the brass. Please advice. Thanks

July 20, 2012, 06:56 PM	#6
the led farmer Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2012 Location: so cal Posts: 246	pull the batch don't shoot them. salvage the bullet, powder and primer and toss the brass, not worth diddling with it then chalk it up to lesson learned. take out your instructions and re read them, then re set your dies according to the instructions, then re read your instructions and double check your dies. btw are you using the lee factory crimp die?

July 20, 2012, 06:58 PM	#7
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	Yes, the Lee factory crimp die, why?

July 20, 2012, 07:28 PM	#9
the led farmer Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2012 Location: so cal Posts: 246	ha ha, i knew it. i joined this forum a few weeks ago because i was researching a different question and basically the same thing came up about over crimping. i use the lee classic turret press and lee dies, (9mm and .223 go figure) with the fcd, i have had excellent results with lee precision except the first batch of .223 i made where i buckled the shoulder just like yourself and many others. i went to the range and the first cartridge got stuck in the chamber. i learned three lessons that day: 1. don't load in poor lighting 2. don't crank 'em out until i am SURE the dies are set correctly and the finished round is where i want it 3. the chamber test never fails i did what i recommend to you, i read, then re read then set then re read and re set again until i got it right. it's very easy to over do it and mangle brass, i bet when you pulled those bullets the cannelure was very pronounced vs. an unseated/uncrimped bullet of yours. the crimp should be subtle, just look at commercial factory crimped ammo, it's barely noticeable. a factory cannelure is also subtle. the example i gave in another thread is anyone who has mangled a piece of brass with pliers knows how easy it is to deform the brass. anyone who has gotten their finger caught in the press ram knows how much pressure is exerted on the case, (if you don't believe me GENTLY stick your finger between the ram and a die, i promise you won't go a full stroke). if you don't have the die seated correctly it's gonna mangle the cartridge. if you haven't already check out all the video's lee precision help videos

July 20, 2012, 07:29 PM	#10
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	You are correct, they are SP bullets (JHP), not FMJ, I made an incorrect statement about the type of bullets in the original post.

July 20, 2012, 08:15 PM	#12
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	Haha, I think I'll pass on peeing on electric fences. I did however de-prime the active primers without issue. I found other postings on this topic and I did the 'towel over press, de-priming gently with double eye protection and ear protection' and it went well. This was with the universal de-primer die which does not touch the brass. After de-priming I ran the brass through the full-size re-sizing die and that brought them back to spec nicely. If this had been range brass I probably would not have bothered but these 40 are once-fired by myself, in the same bolt-action gun so I know it has not been subjected to a lot. Now I just need to figure out what to do with the 40 live primers I pulled. Maybe I'll just use them again... I kid, I kid!

July 20, 2012, 08:19 PM	#13
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	Led farmer, thanks for the advise, I will definitely check, double-check and then re-check the dies from here on + check the first few cartridges before proceeding with the rest. Funny thing was I did continuously caliper-check the rounds for COAL while seating the bullets, now I know I need to pay more attention to the shoulder integrity as well. Good learning experience for sure, just glad it happened to the 40 rounds I did today and not the 80 I did yesterday...

July 20, 2012, 08:46 PM	#15
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	The RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme, really like it so far.

July 20, 2012, 09:22 PM	#17
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	Just loaded up 10 of the cases and they came out just fine. Was definitely the sizing die that messed them up the last time (or rather me setting the die incorrectly). Of course the led tip on the bullets were smashed on just about all of them from the force of hitting the inside of the bullet puller so they'll probably fly all over the place. Going to the range tomorrow so it will be interesting to see how they place. Interesting that the unspent primers can be reused, I did not use them on these 10 cases but I'll put them into the next batch.

July 20, 2012, 09:43 PM	#19
overthere Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2012 Posts: 290	Sport45, you are right, I meant to say the seating die, not the sizing die.

July 20, 2012, 11:19 PM	#20
1stmar Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,378	Unless you lubed the cases to deprime, no reason you can't reuse the primers

July 20, 2012, 11:44 PM	#21
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	You could have pulled your decapping pin and resized without your pin and then your brass would have been ready. No need to decap, and deprime and then reprime. But all in all it was a good lesson.