new to the forums

[suzukibruce]

first i want to say hi and i'm new to this forum. i just purchased my 2nd 1858 remmy here is the link... http://www.auctionarms.com/Closed/Di...mNum=9723774.0

what i am wondering is i'm thinking of getting the r&d conversion for it and have 2 questions. 1, who imported the lyman? i was told it may have been uberti but he wasnt sure. 2, this is a matter of opinion, do i go with .45LC or .45ACP? which is more potent? this is going to be a carry gun for when i go fising hunting hiking etc... thanx for the help!

[madcratebuilder]

Welcome to the asylum. Lyman was the importer and your revolver may have the manufacturers marks under the loading lever. Looks like a Pietta to me but it's hard to tell with out a close inspection. There is a difference in cylinder length between Pietta and Uberti. When you get the revolver it can be determined what you have.

.45lc well have more energy than .45acp but your are limited to what you can shoot in conversion cylinders, normally cowboy loads. You need to follow the cylinder manufacturers recommendations.

[RemTim]

It was made by Uberti in 1971 (xxx7). I have two just like it. I prefer old guns, they made them better back then. Both of mine are nick free as the metal is extremely hard. The black one made in 1971 (xx7). The natural metal one is a work in progress...I.'m refinishing it..eventually. It was made in 1972 (xx8).
[IMG][/IMG]
I was eying the one you bought for the past few days; never bid due to lack of funds. I wanted it pretty bad. These guns are very high quality; they don't make em like they use to. You'll love it!!

Uberti made the Remingtons Lyman imported. I believe Armi San Paolo manufactured the Lyman Colts.

...and welcome to the forum. If you aren't happy with your purchase, let me know (seriously). I am not always broke and I would love to have more of these guns.

[suzukibruce]

thanks, i had a 12" bison before but sold it like a dummy... i wasnt a big fan of the brass frame but fired it alot before i took it to the range and the range master was watching me load it and freaked out when he saw me filling the cylinders to the top and then pressing the wad and ball in. he came over and showed me the safe way to load one and i loved shooting it. i had a buddy offer me more than i paid for it to sell it and did. but i'll always remember how impressive the recoil off that big beast was with 50 grains of powder...

[4V50 Gary]

Borrow or buy a Lyman Black Powder Manual. It'll tell you safe loads for whatever gun you shoot. BTW, the only gun you can regularly overload with black powder is the Ruger Old Army. They engineered it for dummies (like me) who tend to stuff 'em to the brim. Thanks to Ruger engineers, I still have both hands and both eyes.

[CajunPowder]

I'm beginning to think that when the original creator of the Uberti company, "Grandpa A. Uberti" was alive, there were some really nice 1858 New Army pieces coming out of his factory.

[suzukibruce]

ok so how collectible are these? i now know mine is 3 years older than me...lol... i'm thinking some custom work, engraving, sites, shortened barrel, magnaport, differant/refinish grips, maybe duracoat, and definatly conversion cylinder just havent decided on 45colt or acp... what have you guys done custom to these and will it deminish the value of the piece or not?dscn6283_jpg_thumbnail1.jpg

[Hawg]

Not much collector value. Value will be increased by the work done on it but IMHO will never be worth what you put into it.
BTW you cant overload any steel framed bp revolver with bp. They simply won't hold enough.

[RemTim]

BTW you cant overload any steel framed bp revolver with bp.

Hawg, I have read this quote in a couple of your posts. I have a couple of these old Uberti made Lyman Remingtons and I would like to retire my powder measure. Does loading the chamber full of powder do any damage to the revolver? Being a Remmie made of really hard steel, I would think not but don't want to damage my guns.

I use my Remmies for protection, so appearance and new gun status mean little to me. Quality is of the most importance so I want the most quality for the buck and I don't have time or patience to play games with Cabellas and the like.(or am I willing to fork out extra money for shipping their sloppily made products back to them)

The Lyman Remmies don't hold a lot of value; they are sleepers when it comes to value for the money though. They are definitely a step up from the Remmies I have handled in the past.
I started to order a new Uberti imported by Taylor Arms from a local shop for an outstanding price of $290 (tax included). I bought two Uberti made Lymans (with no issues) with holsters for just a few more bucks ($162 and $175). Taking the current Uberti quality issues into consideration, I am pretty sure of myself when I say I made the right choice. I don't want a shadow of the legendary Uberti quality, I want the best I can afford......or so is my humble and somewhat inexperienced opinion.

[suzukibruce]

remtim, i'll tell you this, my traditions bison took a full cylinder, about 50 grains i think, with a brass frame with no problem, i put probably 50 rounds through it like that before i was told "no more than 35 grains" i don't see companies these days making a firearm that isnt idiot proof. jus think of the lawsuits alone not to mention bad press... has anyone heard of a remmy blowing up from black powder? i only hear about smokeless explosions...

[suzukibruce]

check out this site i found!!!

http://www.scorrs.org/photos.htm

[mykeal]

RemTim - Hawg is correct. You can literally load a black powder steel frame revolver full in every chamber and fire it without damage. It is not physically possible to overload one with black powder (no smokeless, of course).

However, given your parameters and requirements I'm puzzled as to why you don't get the Ruger Old Army. It excels in every area you mention as being of overriding importance.

Finally, you don't mention accuracy as a concern. Please be aware that fully loading a black powder revolver is never the most accurate load. All shoot more accurately with a more moderate load. Personally I would place accuracy much higher in importance than sheer power; if power is necessary get a centerfire cartridge gun.

suzukibruce - the issue is not exploding the cylinder; that's not going to happen with a black powder revolver loaded with black powder, even crammed full with every grain possible. The issue is battering the frame loose over time when repeatedly subjected to such maximum loads.

[suzukibruce]

well for one thing i love the remmys, miss my bison and wish i never sold it, second is cost, i got the lyman for 161 plus 20 shipping, 3rd is i wanted something not too expensive for my own custom work which btw i have never done before so to me posibly ruining a colt would be a travesty in its own not like ruining a lyman isnt its just i want to cut down the barrel, crown it reblue or nickle plate maybe even dura coat i really havent made up my mind, i realy would like to do nickle with pearl grips short nicely crowned barrel say take the barrel down to the lever latch but is the site post threaded or brazed? see i don't know until this thing arrives then i'll really get into it!

[RemTim]

Suzuki Bruce, I figured if a brass frame could stand 50 grains or so, my steel framed Lymans would have no problems. I love my guns and I worry about long term damage to them.
I'm going to have to try it. You had no problems and HawgHaggen says its okay to fill the chambers; that's good enough for me.
I thought about cutting the barrels on mine, but couldn't bring myself to do it. I like the long barrels, they make the gun appear a tad more intinmidating. I wanted a Remmie with a 12" barrel, but I couldn't find one that had a steel frame instead of brass and I couldn't afford a stainless version. I had a brass Remmie in the early 1980's, Even though I had no problems with it, I prefer a steel frame and will not be getting another brass one (unless it is dirt cheap, then I would resell it or trade it. My understanding is they are not historically correct (not that that matters that much to me).
Your plans for your Lyman sound interesting. I don't see how you would be ruining the gun by customizing it to your taste.

[suzukibruce]

yeah ive been hoping for one too, i carried my brass one for a bit but it was too bulky and banged into everything... i really want the 5" barrel cabelas has but with all the negative reviews i have been hearing about their pistols i think i'll work with what i got, i'm thinking stainless duracoat... hey is the front site screwed it or brazed on your 1971?

[RemTim]

As for the front sight, it looks like it may be screwed in, but I'm not sure.
I had thought about Cabellas. I placed an order for the 5 1/2 barrel version but canceled before it was shipped. I was scared to take a chance.
According to the guys here, the new Ubertis have thier share of problems. I think CajunPowder was right when he said,

I'm beginning to think that when the original creator of the Uberti company, "Grandpa A. Uberti" was alive, there were some really nice 1858 New Army pieces coming out of his factory.

You would think the quality would be excellent since the company was aquired by Beretta.

[RemTim]

These are simple guns. I can not understand why i the Italian manufacturers can not produce guns of perfect quality every time.

[mykeal]

A question that's been asked many, many times. The answer is just as simple as the guns themselves (which, of course, are not an Italian design at all) - money.

There is at least American company that does make virtually flawless revolvers: USFA. If that's what you want, it's easy to get. Just pay the money.

And if you're sure that such quality doesn't need to cost that much, the field is wide open to anyone who wants to show the world how it's done. Many have tried, none have succeeded.

[RemTim]

Mykeal,
Thanks for the confirmation of full chambers are safe to shoot. It is best to be sure; I have read many articles in which the author implied that it was a dangerous practice.
BTW, I like the old Uberti Remmies and do not desire a ROA as they do not have the safety notches between the nipples. I realize that Ruger is a higher quality and if they had this feature I would probably would like to have one.
I don't mean to come on strong by what I am about to say and I definitely mean no disrespect:I realize you have considerably more experience than me.
Apparently you feel my standards are too high. My expectations are met and exceeded by my choice of guns. I know these companies still produce quality, just not consistently. And no, I do not expect absolute perfection.

I know I said "perfect quality every time"- a bad choice of words. Decent would have been a better choice.
I respectfully disagree with your defense of poor quality control. In the beginning, Uberti had very good consistent quality or should I say much better than today. To add insult to injury, try contacting Uberti or Pietta about the poor quality they turn out; they will turn a deaf ear to the customer and give an unapologetic response.
Apparently you accept and defend their poor workmanship; I don't. Yes, cost is a factor in quality. I still believe that good consistent quality is important in business; I guess I'm old fashioned and do not accept the downward spiral in quality that you defend .I give poor quality the well deserved one finger salute. Or so is my humble yet opinion. $350, even $200 is a lot of money to spend to play Russian Roulette with quality. Judging from the reports of bad experiences with these manufacturers on this forum and elsewhere on the INTERNET I am not alone in feeling the way I do, my friend.

[arcticap]

Judging what used C&B guns can cost for sometimes inferior quality, the new production guns are much better made with regard to higher quality standards of materials, workmanship and tolerances overall.
The new machinery and higher quality and satisfaction of the Pietta guns is a testament to that. If we look at the Euroarms guns of today verses the ASM guns of yesteryear, the Euroarms guns would win hands down.
Any company, even ASM or ASP was capable of making the best and the worst guns. Sometimes buying the older guns is Russian roulette when it comes to the interchangablility of parts and when it comes down to finally shooting them and their reliability and accuracy.
Sure $200 is a lot of money. But an American made conversion cylinder alone costs $250 - $300. Why does a conversion cylinder cost more than the new gun does? Because the Italians are producing much higher volumes with very little mark up in the end. By comparison the cost of a Pietta cap & ball replacement cylinder is only about $40 - $50 and they all seem to fit perfectly, while a Uberti cylinder will cost about twice as much.

A majority of today's revolver defects are pretty minor and cosmetic. The problem is that Italian manufacturers just can't afford to provide the customer service to fix the defects for each and every customer. So they sell them at much lower cost.
For $200 including everyone's mark up and transportation from Italy, it's amazing that it can be done at all, and the level of quality is still very good overall. The difference is that today's market is a high volume operation with not as much hand fitting of parts because of the better and more modern production methods. Way, way more guns are being made today, so the number of defects is more noticed. Yet the discount prices today are actually relatively low.

[RemTim]

Point well taken, Articap (and Mykeal).
My biggest fear of the new productions came fron reading IInternet forum threads in which buyers were complaining about Piettas with crooked barrels. Some buyers complained about paying return shipping only to have another Pietta shipped them which had same issue of misaligned barrels.
As a general rule, evidence does support the theory that an older Uberti gun is higher quality than a new production since the metal is softer in today's Uberti
Cosmetic issues are pretty much non issues of you use your guns. Gun bueaty takes a backseat to practicality for me personally. I carry my guns and use them. Purty is nice but the issue with me is whether thre gun is going to shoot every time I pull the trigger. Springs break, but cheap ones break more often. That's why I carry two, just in case one fails when my or my families lives are on the line.
I don't have a gun collection. I have my defense guns. I choose black powder because it is cheaper to shoot than modern firearms. As long as my guns fire when I pull the trigger I'm happy with black powder. I take the extra precaution of using clear fingernail polish to seal the caps so the humidity doesn't harm the powder and so far so good.
You are right; buying a used gun can be win or lose also.
I guess my quality quirks come from the gun my experience with the third Remmie that I don't claim but still own. It is an ASM made in 1994. The gun is well made, but the quality and the feel of it compared to my Lymans is..well, I hate to say for chance of insult to someone who favors an ASM..poorly balanced and cheap. It is like handling a toy in comparison to a real gun. Being rather new to this game, I don't want to make another unsatisfactory purchase. Most of the Remmies I had handled in the past were of the same or slightly better than my ASM.
Money is tight for me, I try to make the best of my purchases. I realize that I did not take all the facts into consideration when articulating my posts. You all seem to be a great bunch of guys with far more knowledge than I possess. I am sorry if i rubbed anybody the wrong way while attempting to explain (poorly) my position.
Regards,
Tim

[Hawg]

Apparently you accept and defend their poor workmanship; I don't. Yes, cost is a factor in quality. I still believe that good consistent quality is important in business; I guess I'm old fashioned and do not accept the downward spiral in quality that you defend

I think that you hear more about the bad ones than the good ones. I've had several Pietta's from Cabela's and all were good quality with no mechanical or cosmetic problems. If you want to compare quality versus cost price a Pietta against a USFA. Yeah the USFA is going to be better quality but is the difference in quality worth the price? Not to me. Besides everybody makes a lemon that slips thru now and then. Colt does it, so does S&W, Glock and everybody else. But for the money you spend you can't beat a Pietta.

[mykeal]

the metal is softer in today's Uberti

I've seen no evidence to support that. I have seen the occasional anonymous internet claim, which is a long, long way from evidence.

My personal experience with Uberti, starting with a 1972 Colt Pocket Police and most recently with a 2007 Walker, leads me to the opposite conclusion.

[RemTim]

My personal experience with Uberti, starting with a 1972 Colt Pocket Police and most recently with a 2007 Walker, leads me to the opposite conclusion.

Mykeal, You have more experience to base your conclusion on. I had made a comparison to later Ubertis. However, as you pointed out to me here:

First of all, be very careful about generalizing about an entire population of revolvers based on one or two samples. You have examples, not proof, of 'better metal' used during a certain time frame by a given manufacturer. Someone else may have examples of poor metal used by that same manufacturer in that same time frame. One thing we can be sure of is that quality is an elusive goal and man-made objects can and will vary considerably in quality from day to day!

I would place more emphasis on your research than your two examples. And that's without knowing the source of any of that research. If it's simply anecdotes about what one person found on one gun, there's not much credibility there UNLESS there's lots of people making the same claim, such as was the case in the late 80's and early 90's about the small action parts on some of the Italian replicas.

Second, my earlier post (being quoted here) is perhaps slightly misunderstood. NOBODY makes every part used on the guns that bear their trademark. NOBODY. Period. ALL gun manufacturers use subcontractors to make forgings, castings, springs, grips, etc., or to do machine work, finishing work and even in some cases final assembly work. To say that a Uberti marked gun might contain parts made by someone else is simply stating the obvious. I'll guarantee you that every Uberti marked gun has at least some parts made either partially or completely by someone other than Uberti, and they may not even be under contract to Uberti when they made the part. That's simply standard practice by any and all mass market product manufacturers.

on the following thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406466 II have no basis to make that assumption. I am extremely glad to find out I am wrong on that assumption; that opens a wider range of goodies to choose from. I want a big granddaddy Walker next. Thanks

[suzukibruce]

wow... alot of info on this forum... well putting in my 2 cents is this, i drive a 1980 bronco, ride an 82 suzuki gs and a 78 nautiline houseboat, and also have a 2004 silverado, a 98 sea ray and a 02 vulcan. the chevy the sea ray and the vulcan have had more issues with them then all of my older vehicals combined... also i have an sks, a mossberg 500, and an iver johnson hammerless .32. i like the older stuff because in my opinion "they just don't make 'em like they used to" is a fact. let's take my bronco and silverado head to head in a collision, dollars to doughnuts i'll be driving the bronco home... and i have had the same type of experiance with firearms, give me an original SAA colt vrs a Vaquero any day, the fact is this, older firearms had more people putting their hands on them then the newer ones, back in the day it wasnt about the bottom line it was about making a quality product that people would advertise for you by word of mouth. today it's "how much advertising will get us the most sales?" and if 10% of the guns need to be returned for some "hands on repair" then that fits in with the profit margin, they can afford that when they are selling 10 million guns a year vrs 10 thousand. so they have these cookie cutter guns that more machines touch than people and ship them out and if a few have to be returned then they hire a gunsmith to fix the issue or like they do now just send out a new gun altogether, problem fixed. now they get alot of "well i had this problem but they took care of it" reviews instead of a few "wow what a great piece, i will recomment it"