Hand to Hand tranisition to Gun - Page 2

Japle · April 15, 2011, 06:22 PM

It’s funny. You guys seem to think I haven’t thought this through and practiced.

stonewall50 · April 15, 2011, 06:24 PM

@Japle: I am aware of the unpredictability. I know it sounded like I was attacking and for that please allow me to clarify. If I am approached by a stranger I can't put my hand on my gun cause I carry IWB at 330. I worry about a snag in a pocket carry, but if a guy is close I am going to use my hands(I practice against knives and pipes) to make space and get to the gun. It sounds like you have your own system you work on and as long as you can get it out fast then that is all that maatters. The last thing I want is for someone to be aware of a gun if they are asking directions(or someone else figure it out if they are watching someone ask for directions). But again this is all situational and thread discussion so no really reality based. I believe that it is alway good to know how to react if you can't get that gun out of the holster fast enough or if you are caught off guard because in reality that is always a possibility in the world we live in.

@Rob: The hand stuff you are discussing is totally legal, and if I am shooting someone state of Florida law (if I am not mistaken) says that I shoot to kill. That follow up brain shot is really circumstancial. If you train yourself to do that then there is no question what you do in reality. Also your line to the jury is that, "You never shoot to wound, always to kill." The reason this is important is because it makes it aware that shooting to wound puts lives in danger, but shooting to kill ends the situation.

@Japle Again: Lol...that is why I didn't question your method lol. If you practice it you know how it works. I don't pocket carry, only IWB so I am not questioning methods. I hve never held the P3 either lol.

MLeake · April 15, 2011, 06:26 PM

No, you don't shoot "to kill" in any jurisdiction in the US.

You shoot "to stop."

The most reliable way to do that is COM or CNS.

Saying you shoot "to kill" opens up cans of worms you do not want opened.

garryc · April 15, 2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:

If grabbed from behind a quick headbutt ought too get you some oppertunaty
to bring knee foot ect, JMO ; )

Problem with that is that in close you don't have the ability to get any momentum. Also, tossing your head back exposes your neck to a full choke.

You should tuck your chin into his elbow. This gives you a pivot point to take control of his arm going to a balance break and into an arm toss.

smince · April 16, 2011, 07:30 AM

Quote:

It’s funny. You guys seem to think I haven’t thought this through and practiced.

What is your practice regimen? How often?

Japle · April 16, 2011, 03:21 PM

Quote:

What is your practice regimen? How often?

Fortunately, I’m a member of a club with lots of outdoor shooting bays and no “range Nazis”. Once the ROs get to know you and know you’re a safe shooter they can trust, they’ll let you go off on your own and use one of the bays for your practice.

I get to the range once a week, almost always on a mid-week morning. I can practice drawing from a pocket, shooting from retention position and whatever else I need to do.

HINT: Don’t try firing the P3AT from retention position with the gun upright. It’ll eject cases right into your face.

That’s not a mistake you make twice!!

MLeake · April 16, 2011, 03:27 PM

Ok, Japle, but how do you practice the opposed draw scenario? There's only so much you can do without a partner.

Erik · April 19, 2011, 02:06 AM

There are a variety of ways to create distance. The trick is what to do if you cannot create distance? Note, drawing is not always the best option, but if you feel that you must:

I've been taught to control the opponent's limb nearest the weapon you wish to draw. Failure to do so begs a counter.

MLeake · April 19, 2011, 06:28 AM

In contrast, I've always been taught to control the opponent's center of balance whenever possible. Problem with controlling a limb, is it leaves him with three others, if he is still on balance.

Skans · April 19, 2011, 07:49 AM

There are other hand to hand tactics available if someone draws a weapon on you at close range. It very basically involves a very fast strike to the wrist/arm of the attacker which is holding the weapon, then a fast follow up with a grab, forcing the firearm/attacker's wrist/forearm back toward the attacker's face. If done properly, the attacker is quickly forced to release the weapon and you have control of the weapon. At very close ranges, it is much quicker and more effective to draw your own weapon. I practice this with a group of people that I shoot and spar with.

For comparison, I've tried many times to draw my weapon in a mock close-up attack. I've seen others try as well. If the attacker is determined to kill you, I have found no way to draw my weapon and get the muzzle close to being pointed at my target fast enough before the attacker pulls the trigger. The "click" always comes right before I can even get my gun out of concealment.

So, what I'm saying is that I think the OP is right on track in incorporating various hand to hand fighting techniques, especially if confronted with a surprise close-up attack.

MLeake · April 19, 2011, 11:39 AM

... but one friend of mine does undercover narcotics street buys. He's also a jujitsu instructor.

He's had guns pulled on him on several occasions, at very close range. Rather, I should say that dealers have tried to draw on him on several occasions.

My friend has never drawn his sidearm. He's gone right for the BG. At least two ended up with broken arms. In all cases, my friend had the BG's weapon, and the BG ended up in cuffs and under arrest (in two cases headed for jail via the hospital).

I asked him why he never drew. He said in some instances he didn't think he'd have time (under cover garment, etc), and that generally he reacted from reflex.

Japle · April 19, 2011, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Posted by MLeake:
Ok, Japle, but how do you practice the opposed draw scenario? There's only so much you can do without a partner.

I have two partners, both also retired military. We practice whatever scenarios we can think up, which is a pretty good variety.

MLeake · April 19, 2011, 04:24 PM

Japle, that puts you ahead of most people.

smince · April 20, 2011, 06:30 PM

Suarez International 0-5Ft Gunfighting

Tom Sotis/AMOK 'Accessing Under Attack/Fighting For Your Gun'

SouthNarc ECQC

All great one-day or weekend courses on this very subject

neilstrauss · May 13, 2011, 05:34 PM

Interesting post. A good read.

April 15, 2011, 06:24 PM	#27
stonewall50 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 668	@Japle: I am aware of the unpredictability. I know it sounded like I was attacking and for that please allow me to clarify. If I am approached by a stranger I can't put my hand on my gun cause I carry IWB at 330. I worry about a snag in a pocket carry, but if a guy is close I am going to use my hands(I practice against knives and pipes) to make space and get to the gun. It sounds like you have your own system you work on and as long as you can get it out fast then that is all that maatters. The last thing I want is for someone to be aware of a gun if they are asking directions(or someone else figure it out if they are watching someone ask for directions). But again this is all situational and thread discussion so no really reality based. I believe that it is alway good to know how to react if you can't get that gun out of the holster fast enough or if you are caught off guard because in reality that is always a possibility in the world we live in. @Rob: The hand stuff you are discussing is totally legal, and if I am shooting someone state of Florida law (if I am not mistaken) says that I shoot to kill. That follow up brain shot is really circumstancial. If you train yourself to do that then there is no question what you do in reality. Also your line to the jury is that, "You never shoot to wound, always to kill." The reason this is important is because it makes it aware that shooting to wound puts lives in danger, but shooting to kill ends the situation. @Japle Again: Lol...that is why I didn't question your method lol. If you practice it you know how it works. I don't pocket carry, only IWB so I am not questioning methods. I hve never held the P3 either lol. __________________ Faith Reason Fraternus

April 19, 2011, 02:06 AM	#33
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	There are a variety of ways to create distance. The trick is what to do if you cannot create distance? Note, drawing is not always the best option, but if you feel that you must: I've been taught to control the opponent's limb nearest the weapon you wish to draw. Failure to do so begs a counter. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

April 19, 2011, 11:39 AM	#36
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	I've mentioned this in other threads... ... but one friend of mine does undercover narcotics street buys. He's also a jujitsu instructor. He's had guns pulled on him on several occasions, at very close range. Rather, I should say that dealers have tried to draw on him on several occasions. My friend has never drawn his sidearm. He's gone right for the BG. At least two ended up with broken arms. In all cases, my friend had the BG's weapon, and the BG ended up in cuffs and under arrest (in two cases headed for jail via the hospital). I asked him why he never drew. He said in some instances he didn't think he'd have time (under cover garment, etc), and that generally he reacted from reflex.

April 15, 2011, 06:22 PM	#26
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	It’s funny. You guys seem to think I haven’t thought this through and practiced.

April 15, 2011, 06:26 PM	#28
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	No, you don't shoot "to kill" in any jurisdiction in the US. You shoot "to stop." The most reliable way to do that is COM or CNS. Saying you shoot "to kill" opens up cans of worms you do not want opened.

April 16, 2011, 03:27 PM	#32
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Ok, Japle, but how do you practice the opposed draw scenario? There's only so much you can do without a partner.

April 19, 2011, 06:28 AM	#34
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	In contrast, I've always been taught to control the opponent's center of balance whenever possible. Problem with controlling a limb, is it leaves him with three others, if he is still on balance.

April 19, 2011, 07:49 AM	#35
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	There are other hand to hand tactics available if someone draws a weapon on you at close range. It very basically involves a very fast strike to the wrist/arm of the attacker which is holding the weapon, then a fast follow up with a grab, forcing the firearm/attacker's wrist/forearm back toward the attacker's face. If done properly, the attacker is quickly forced to release the weapon and you have control of the weapon. At very close ranges, it is much quicker and more effective to draw your own weapon. I practice this with a group of people that I shoot and spar with. For comparison, I've tried many times to draw my weapon in a mock close-up attack. I've seen others try as well. If the attacker is determined to kill you, I have found no way to draw my weapon and get the muzzle close to being pointed at my target fast enough before the attacker pulls the trigger. The "click" always comes right before I can even get my gun out of concealment. So, what I'm saying is that I think the OP is right on track in incorporating various hand to hand fighting techniques, especially if confronted with a surprise close-up attack.

April 19, 2011, 04:24 PM	#38
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Japle, that puts you ahead of most people.

April 20, 2011, 06:30 PM	#39
smince Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Northeast Alabama Posts: 2,580	Suarez International 0-5Ft Gunfighting Tom Sotis/AMOK 'Accessing Under Attack/Fighting For Your Gun' SouthNarc ECQC All great one-day or weekend courses on this very subject

May 13, 2011, 05:34 PM	#40
neilstrauss Junior member Join Date: May 13, 2011 Posts: 1	Interesting post. A good read.