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Old October 14, 2008, 07:21 PM   #26
EastSideRich
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Actually this called for a certain amount of violence. The home owner should have used rotten eggs
This I can get on board with. Eggs, a well placed bb or a hail of paintballs; something like that.
I am still astounded that a state could have a law on the books that would allow for the use of deadly force. I wouldn't even expect this in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, (where they stone people and cut off hands), but Texas?
Again Hoytinak, I do believe you, I am just shocked.
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Old October 14, 2008, 07:28 PM   #27
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My biggest concern here are the number that don't see anything wrong with vandalizing, and yes I consider TP'ing a house vandalizing, someone's home. Although I would not shoot the punks that go around doing this I am not sure I would call 911 for them if they got shot. A person that does this has no respect for others and is a low form of life. Sadly many of them grow up to be politicians which fits right in with the low form of life.

/rant off.
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Old October 14, 2008, 07:51 PM   #28
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For the love of GOD, what the hell is wrong with some of you people??? I hate criminals about as much as most any other criminal hater does, but to state it is ok to purposely KILL a kid for pulling a stupid prank???!!! One that washes away with a hose or the next few rainstorms or a ladder and some time...are you insane??

I am disgusted by you people, and if I feel that way then just imagine how anti gunners would feel about you and therefore all firearm owners??

Shame on all of you who feel it is right to kill a young teenager, a 14 year old BOY, for a dumb joke. If we all faced the same judgement then very few of us would be alive today, for God knows we have all done much dumber things in our youth than throw a roll of toilet paper into a tree.

Guns are to protect your life against burglars, rapists, murderers, and corrupt governments, not from dumb little kids who haven't even lived long enough to know what life is about and are giggling as they go about a silly, albeit annoying, joke.

I am beside myself with disbelief and embarassment to be associated with a group who would end a boy's life for that.
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Old October 14, 2008, 08:18 PM   #29
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I agree that there really isn't a lot of information given. If it was a dark night and the kids were banging on the windows or doing something similar...who knows? It's astonishing what a 14 year old kid thinks is a good idea. Get a group of them together and you've got a 50/50 chance on whether they build a robot that or chose to drink paint in the shed.

That said, it I suspect it only takes about one incident like this to discourage most vandalism for a generation or two.
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Old October 14, 2008, 09:17 PM   #30
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Sounds to me like this is guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. In my day tit for tat t'ping was a something we did all the time. Its a form of vandilism I can live with. People shooting childern for t'ping houses I cant live with. Thats the same for shooting them with bean bags, tazers, rubber rounds..
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Old October 14, 2008, 11:03 PM   #31
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I have a hard time believing you could legally kill someone for throwing a roll of toilet paper into a tree.
Well according to the article, the prosecutor's office is looking into the possibility of charges being filed, so this obviously can't be OK in the eyes of the law.
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Old October 14, 2008, 11:42 PM   #32
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THis is what the good Lord made lawn sprinklers for, to turn on when you have a yard full of kids tossing the charmin.


THis is a guy who should go to jail. The shooter, not the kid, at least from the two different news sources I have found. There was no implied threat. there was no aggressive action, and there was fear of GBH. therefore, its attempted murder.


What had happened if there were a couple of cheer leaders out there Chalking his driveway with Heather (hearts) joey? or If it had been a little old lady picking up dog Pooh her little terrier had laid on his grass?


Had he fired one shot, then realized that Oh )(*)*) what did I do?!? and called 911 while trying to save the kid, ok, but shoot three times, when there was no apparent weapon? Sorry, thats attempted murder.


GBH is the threshold, and he from all listed sources, had no fear of GBH.
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Old October 15, 2008, 12:30 AM   #33
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I think people who find 'pranks' like that funny or that would even consider doing them obnoxious. I don't think its funny or cute or defensible and my first instinct is to severely brutalize people who do.

It is really sad that you can't even get away with giving little punks like that a beating and if instead of doing the same to them, their permissive, overprotective parents want to defend them and retaliate against me, I'd like to do the same to them or worse.

Conversely I don't think he should have shot at them, or done anything other than call the police, because sadly thats the kind of society we live in. The reason is so many of the present day 'adults' are just as obnoxious and in-mature as the little punk kids they raised are.
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Old October 15, 2008, 01:20 AM   #34
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Based on the information given the homeowner was 100% wrong and should face charges. I can understand investigating with weapon in hand, but was his sight so bad he couldn’t see it was just kids TP’ing his house? Then he had to shoot 3 times???!!! I’m not condoning what these kids did, but this was overkill on the homeowner’s part. Considering the things kids get into these days TP’ing is pretty tame. It was just kids being kids. They should be punished, but let the punishment fit the crime.

This guy should never own a firearm again and should spend a few years in jail. Hopefully the kid has no permanent injuries.
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:17 AM   #35
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Before you leave Keltyke, you should concede that I condoned no violence here.
I agree, grym, and you're correct. My apologies if I seemed to jump hard, I just couldn't believe the tone of some of the other posts and I reacted. We're cool.

You're right, the boy DID learn a lesson, even though it was a hard one. However, sometimes those are the ones that stick with you. The bottom line is he's going to be ok and the homeowner (hopefully) will learn you can't crank off three rounds of buckshot for a TP incident.

Yes, I know in TX it's a 3rd class felony - but give me a break people. Use come temperance and common sense. We're supposed to be the adults here. Make the punishment fit the crime.
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Old October 15, 2008, 06:26 AM   #36
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Yes, I know in TX it's a 3rd class felony - but give me a break people. Use come temperance and common sense. We're supposed to be the adults here. Make the punishment fit the crime
So, I take it you was talking about me earlier. I did say that I didn't think it was moral and that I wouldn't have done it....I was just stating how the law (here anyways) was written.
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Old October 15, 2008, 07:04 AM   #37
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I was just stating how the law (here anyways) was written.
I realize that, hoy. That's a strange quirk in the law.
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Old October 15, 2008, 07:09 AM   #38
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yeah it is....but we can't open carry?
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Old October 15, 2008, 07:34 AM   #39
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As previously stated, . . . can't fix stupid on either side here, . . . what is done, is done.

I wonder though, . . . as having had an aquaintance go through a terrible ordeal where he shot a 16 year old, . . . and wound up doing a year for it.

He had moved into a brand new subdivision, . . . very few houses were finished, . . . quite a number in various stages of construction, . . . and one night 3 or 4 teenagers came over and as he stated it, . . . were looking for something to steal.

He put his .44 Mag, Ruger, in his waistband behind him, . . . went out and challenged the kids, . . . told them he'd call the cops if they didn't get out and stay out.

I guess they cussed him real good, . . . then one of them picked up a piece of 2 x 4 and they started as a mob toward him.

My point? Unless you knew the last paragraph, . . . you would think his shooting at them would be totally inhumane, unjustified, stupid, reckless, etc.

Perhaps there was more to the TP'ing than we all know, . . . as I cannot in my wildest imagination, . . . think that a responsible, sane person would shoot a kid over a stupid prank like that.

May God bless,
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Old October 15, 2008, 07:41 AM   #40
Brit
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Who paid for the toilet paper?

Sneaking paid for by Mum or Dad toilet paper out of the house to waste! He or they would be hot bottomed if they were my kids, money does not grow on trees.

Bird shot, not buck shot, buck shot would have a dead teen, as none of us where there, what actually happened? What type of vandalism had taken place before? Health of home owner?

And remember, as my Dad said, the only true print in a Newspaper was on the front page, at the top, the price.
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Old October 15, 2008, 08:22 AM   #41
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Heck, even charging outside with a paintball gun could end in tragedy....

But what if the home owner falls off his ladder while trying to clean up the mess the vandels left?

Another classic: Two Wrongs don't make a right. Unfortunatly, the man stepping outside and blasting away THREE times with a shotgun is far going to outweigh the vandal issue.... Paranoid gun owners are probably one of the biggest anti-gun arguments that we as law abiding citizens have to overcome, and this guy just fueled that fire BIG TIME.
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Old October 15, 2008, 08:59 AM   #42
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the boy DID learn a lesson, even though it was a hard one.
Hard lesson indeed and it may be that the homeowner learns an equally hard lesson.

Yup.... stupidity can be fixed..... too bad the price is so prohibitive.
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Old October 15, 2008, 09:03 AM   #43
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TP'ing a house is considered criminal mischief and committing criminal mischief at night automatically a 3rd degree felony and is protected under Texas Penal Code 9.42 (Deadly Force To Protect Property) sec. (2)(A).
and the first time a homeowner gets away with shooting a kid TPing a house based on that law you are going to see it changed. The result will be a whole lot LESS leeway for the reasonable homeowner to deal with threats.

Just because the law on the matter is fairly "liberal" in the traditional sense is not an invitation to be an idiot. Take advantage of that law enough and you will see it changed.
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Old October 15, 2008, 11:19 AM   #44
RescueRich
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The facts.

The boy has been released...

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/most_popu...9&provider=top

I will not comment on anything else, would be a job ending thing to do. But I agree that people should get all of the facts before deciding on which side of the fence to be on.

TP'ing houses is a common thing in this township, but of all of the things kids could be out doing I would rather have them TP a house than most things.

It is sad this all happened. However, that is the only personal comment i'll make. I will keep you updated as I hear FACTS that can be passed along.

Rich Hays
Solon Township Fire Captain.
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Old October 15, 2008, 11:30 AM   #45
Hondo11
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Quote from HOYTINAK:

TP'ing a house is considered criminal mischief and committing criminal mischief at night automatically a 3rd degree felony and is protected under Texas Penal Code 9.42 (Deadly Force To Protect Property) sec. (2)(A).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only partly true. The penalty for Criminal Mischief is based on the dollar amount of pecuniary loss (ie: How much money the owner of the damaged property is out.) The penalty has NOTHING to do with the time of day.

However, Deadly Force IS justified to prevent the actor's immenent commission of Criminal Mischief AT NIGHTTIME. So...yeah, you may get No-Billed by the Grand Jury, but the possible civil trial is another story.

***This is in Texas...your state may be different.***
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Old October 15, 2008, 11:37 AM   #46
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I also agree that 3 shots pushes it over the edge of "I thought they were trying to break in." I think this clearly violates know what your target is and what is behind it. I would go out and shine a bright flashlight on them (or maybe turn on the flood lights surrounding my house. They would get the idea and beat it. Even most burglers would split knowing the howeowner was awake and expecting them. If I flipped on the lights and someone still tried going through my door (I would yell that I am armed and that the police have already been called), I would have NO QUALMS shooting them.
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Old October 15, 2008, 11:50 AM   #47
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I gotta jump back in...

From the linked article:

Quote:
"What I know of Mark , he's not a man who would just go firing a gun off if he saw teenagers toilet papering," says neighbor and friend Connie Fisk. "He's a very soft spoken man."
Jeez! When have we heard THAT before? Goetz, Dahlmer, Berkowitz: the list is long.
Quote:
"I don't think the guy should have flipped out if it was only toilet paper," says neighbor Jared Fisk. "Maybe if the guy was breaking stuff on his property."
Lawd! You CAN'T shoot to protect property!

Quote:
Kuncaitis shot out the rear window of their vehicle.
That's a FOURTH shot. This guy had killing in his heart. You can't tell me he didn't. He flipped out 100% full-goose bozo, and should probably undergo psychiatric examination.

Quote:
"Seeing as how they were vandalizing and on his property, I think if the kid got away with what he did, he is lucky," says neighbor Chase Fisk. "They should probably just drop everything. Both sides were not thinking right."
Oh, the kid TPs some trees and gets shot three times for it and this guy wants to "just drop everything"?????????? "Not thinking right"??????? Can you say, "Attempted manslaughter"?

Now, before I get jumped...The kids were WRONG, completely WRONG. They should receive some type of punishment: community service, clean up the guy's yard, fines, after school home arrest, a good butt warming by their parents, being grounded until they're 35...but getting shot? Give me a break.

The people who condone this shooting scare me.
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Old October 15, 2008, 11:53 AM   #48
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We don't know the whole story yet as others have stated but it does seem over the top based on the information at hand. This will be interesting to see as it plays out. I'm not sure about the state laws there but that last round through the back glass might get him in more trouble than anything else.

Anyway, the reason I wanted to post on this one was to help clarify something regarding bean bag and rubber bullet rounds. They are not considered NON-LETHAL projectiles, at least in every class I ever went to. They are considered LESS-LETHAL. The difference is very significant. Less Lethal still has the ability to kill such as a bean bag round to the face, etc. There is a fair amount of training that goes into using these and much of that covers legal issues, etc. One of the more common uses you will see is on an EDP or intoxicated person threatening themselves with something like a knife.

I am not condoning vandalism, and yes, that is certainly what they were doing. I am agreeing with others who thought this was a poor use of weapons and judgement. I have always felt that just because something might be legal, that doesn't make it the right thing to do and vice versa.
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Old October 15, 2008, 12:13 PM   #49
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I am beside myself with disbelief and embarassment to be associated with a group who would end a boy's life for that.
Me too. I am shocked at many of your reactions.
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Old October 15, 2008, 12:31 PM   #50
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Ethical, Moral, or legal?

Maybe some more facts will come out, maybe one of the kids brandished a gun, who knows. Regardless of the whole story, there are a few lessons (and we've all seen these same lessons before) to remember here.
First - if you think there's a threat of GBH outside, you don't go outside! Let alone take a weapon with you. Arm yourself, stay inside, call 9-1-1. Stay on the phone, or have your spouse stay on the phone with them till the mounties arrive. Stay in your safe spot. Having a gun, let alone a CCW permit ,doesn't make you a vigilante and you imperil all our rights when reactionary people read stories about trigger-happy citizens. You just don't use deadly force for a property crime, especially something as innocent and prankish as TPing a house.
Second - If you don't think there's a threat of GBH, you don't pull a gun. Ever. Period. Still call the cops if they're vandalizing your property - if they're caught in the act, they'll probably have to clean it up, at the least, when the judge gets the case. If one of them has a gun, tell the cops and let them - the pros, by the way - do their jobs. But a TP job by youngsters? Just step outside and shout at them - they'll run like the dickens almost certainly. Of course then you're stuck with the cleanup.
Third - THINK! BEFORE! YOU! ACT! Most adults are capable of foreseeing consequences from their actions. This situation didn't call for violence at all, let alone gunshots. Right or wrong, guilty or justified, the entire thing was almost certainly avoidable. Even if the shooting isn't prosecuted, nobody needed to get shot at all.

and for those of you who condone this shooting, i strongly suggest you re-think your own reaction strategies. It's one thing to shoot a burglar in your home; it's the same thing to shoot a would-be mugger where weapons or violence is either explicit or easily implied; this isn't any of those things. If your plan includes reacting with deadly force to such innocent and non-threatening situations, you are courting disaster and needlessly endangering yourself and others. Consider reviewing the CCW and deadly force laws in your area. You should know them by heart anyway.
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