Firearm or Die setup?

JimDandy · August 11, 2013, 06:19 PM

I've got a Sig version of the 1911. Last couple range trips have been using my reloads with Federal brass, Federal primers, 7.2 grains of Power Pistol, and the freebie Hornady 185gr JHP. I have out of the 200 I've made, and 180 I've shot, 4 that would not feed at all. Probably another 8 that would feed after I used my thumb as a sort of "battery assist" on the back of the slide to push it that last little bit into battery. I'm getting close but not THAT close to the booklet's time to replace the spring. I haven't shot enough factory loads to know if they present the same issue.

I've got three choices I came up with on my own...

The sping is wearing out- which I consider possible but unlikely
I haven't broken it down and oiled the slide lately- only slightly more plausible in my mind than the spring
The powder charge is insufficient - very unlikely as it's the middle of the range, and they won't load on a "sling shot" either.
My die is not QUITE taper crimping the flare enough on that 1% of rounds. - I suppose most likely, but confusing on the small number of occurences.
Something else I haven't thought of.

m&p45acp10+1 · August 11, 2013, 06:30 PM

If you still have the offending rounds then try backing the seating plug out of your seating die. Turn it down about 1/16 of a turn, then try to chamber the round. Repeat in 1/16 turn increments till it chambers. Take the round, then run it back throgh again stop when it is all the way on the upstroke, and hold it. Turn the seater die down till it touches the bullet. Done.

Brian Pfleuger · August 11, 2013, 06:39 PM

My guess is powder charge. I don't know your data source but Alliant shows 9.4gr max for 180gr SGD. That would indicate a starting load of around 8.5gr. Even allowing for a different (and probably longer) bullet, you're almost a grain below starting loads.

QuickLoad agrees, saying that load would produce only about 10,000 psi.

lee n. field · August 11, 2013, 06:47 PM

Quote:

I've got three choices I came up with on my own...

The sping is wearing out- which I consider possible but unlikely
I haven't broken it down and oiled the slide lately- only slightly more plausible in my mind than the spring
The powder charge is insufficient - very unlikely as it's the middle of the range, and they won't load on a "sling shot" either.
My die is not QUITE taper crimping the flare enough on that 1% of rounds. - I suppose most likely, but confusing on the small number of occurences.
Something else I haven't thought of.

I would check your crimp. You might pick up a crimping die, or even a Lee Factory Crimp die. They're not expensive.

JimDandy · August 11, 2013, 07:21 PM

Quote:

My guess is powder charge. I don't know your data source but Alliant shows 9.4gr max for 180gr SGD.

The Hornady book lists 5 loads from 6.1 to 8.9 grains of Power Pistol under a 185 grain HP XTP bullet- my 7.2 is about halfway between the second lowest and middle load probably good for 925ish FPS

Brian Pfleuger · August 11, 2013, 07:36 PM

That in itself seems strange. I don't know why they'd have a 20% reduced starting load.

In any case, QuickLoad and Alliant agree that a starting load would be at least 8.0gr, if not 8.5. I'd step it up to at least 8.0 and see if the problem goes away.

noylj · August 11, 2013, 08:34 PM

1) I don't like wet 1911s and I have only found that oiling makes mud. Very little oil needed.
2) New gun? Needs about 200 round to break-in.
3) Remove the barrel from the gun. Take the non-feeding rounds and coat the bullet and case with black Magic Marker/Sharpee. Drop in chamber. Rotate a little. Remove round and look at scratches. That tells you exactly where the problem is:
mark on bullet--COL too long
mark at case mouth--not enough flare/bell removed
mark on case where bottom of bullet is--not enough case expansion (not talking flare/bell, but case expansion)--get a slightly larger expander or start using the expander die properly
mark just above the extractor groove--case was bulged and you didn't "iron" it out--get a Lee Bulge Buster kit and the Lee FCD. This will often show up as a raised ridge going partially around the case (from a bulge at the feed ramp).
If everything there is fine, you may be using a COL that is too short. Try a longer COL.
When you set up, make two inert (no primer or powder) rounds so you can try various COLs and make sure they feed and chamber easily before you reload real ammunition.

Revoltella · August 12, 2013, 06:54 AM

Check that your sizing die is properly set to full length size your cases. If you're having o use your thumb to get the slide into battery, it sounds like bottom of the case isn't getting sized.

JimDandy · August 12, 2013, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Check that your sizing die is properly set to full length size your cases. If you're having o use your thumb to get the slide into battery, it sounds like bottom of the case isn't getting sized.

That's what I thought on the first batch, so I re-set my dies, and the sizing die goes all the way down to the shell plate. I suppose the die could be deformed, but that still doesn't explain why it's such a small representation of the sample size. I would think that would be much higher than just 2%.

Quote:

If everything there is fine, you may be using a COL that is too short. Try a longer COL.
When you set up, make two inert (no primer or powder) rounds so you can try various COLs and make sure they feed and chamber easily before you reload real ammunition.

I do and did that. The Short COL is intriguing though. I have them loaded to the COL in the book, 1.2 something or other, don't have the book at work. But there's a notation that you may have to load them longer for magazine use. How would a short COL affect chambering on something that headspaces on the mouth?

Also the not enough Bell is also an interesting idea. I'm using a Powder Through Expander as part of my bullet feeder, and I haven't been especially impressed with the "expander" part. Sometimes I have to guide the bullet into the feeding sleeve on the seater die

Quote:

That in itself seems strange. I don't know why they'd have a 20% reduced starting load.

Brian, perhaps it has something to do with the construction of a Hornady XTP vs a Speer Gold Dot? The hardness, ogive, or suggested seating depth?

noylj · August 13, 2013, 12:04 AM

Setting up dies: Be sure to have a case or a case and bullet in the die to be sure it is aligned properly (i.e., screw sizing down to touch shell holder, lower ram, insert case in shell holder, raise ram, with case in die tighten the lock ring).
COL in manual is the MINIMUM that the data applies to and is not listed as a recommended COL for the handloader. Some manuals list a max COL, but they forget to mention that the max COL is the max COL allowed by SAAMI for testing by the industry and is STILL a minimum COL as far as the handloader is concerned. COL is entirely the handloader's responsibility. SAAMI wants pressure tested at a COL that handloaders and factory ammo are not likely to go below.
If you go to a shorter COL, you need to reduce charges. If you go to longer COL, you MAY be able to increase charges slightly. However, I have found that a given reduction in COL increases pressure a lot more than a comparable increase in COL reduces pressure.
Headspacing, forgetting any technical definition and simply talking about the distance between the breech and the case head when the round is fully forward (case mouth actually against the start of the throat or the bullet actually against the lede/rifling), is totally separate from feeding. In reality, almost all cases are too short for minimum head spacing. Loading a lot longer COL, such that the lower ogive and bearing surface of the bullet is closer to the lede/rifling, will reduce "head space."
Feeding depends on when the magazine releases the round and where the bullet is when the round impacts the feed ramp. Too short or too long will both cause feeding problems. Too short will often cause the nose of the bullet to end up stuck against the top of the chamber. Too long and the bullet often sticks against the feed ramp. This is a "general" rule and rounds end up doing whatever they want too many times.
A 10% reduction from max for start load is simply the old industry "rule of thumb" when they only printed max loads. Today, many manuals start all powders at the same velocity or the same pressure and some well behaved powders can have a large range from start to max and others, that I consider not useful, have less than 0.5gn between start and max (not counting loads where the max is 3.5gn or less).

Brian Pfleuger · August 13, 2013, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Brian, perhaps it has something to do with the construction of a Hornady XTP vs a Speer Gold Dot? The hardness, ogive, or suggested seating depth?

Those things might matter, but QuickLoad agrees with Alliant. I always take the powder folks a bit more "seriously" than other sources. They (should) know their own powder. You might make an argument for a difference between Hornady and Alliant data being because of the bullet but QuickLoad is using the XTP and still agrees with Alliant. QuickLoad isn't the most super accurate thing for straight-wall cases but it should still give you a reasonable number. Considering that it matches Alliant so well and both are so far above Hornady AND you are having issues that suggest a low charge, I'd guess their probably right.

In any case, it's pretty easy to work up a load to see what happens.

pete2 · August 13, 2013, 01:17 PM

Gage the loaded rounds in a case gage or remove the bbl and use it. The round should drop all the way in to the chamber, you should hear a plunk sound. If it goes plunk it should chamber OK. Fed. cases seem to be thicker than others. I would bet you don't have this problem with Remington cases. A lot of the Fed. I reload have a bulge at the base of the bullet. They don't cause much problem in My autos but I have a 625 revolver that will not tolerate an oversize round.

August 11, 2013, 06:19 PM	#1
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	Firearm or Die setup? I've got a Sig version of the 1911. Last couple range trips have been using my reloads with Federal brass, Federal primers, 7.2 grains of Power Pistol, and the freebie Hornady 185gr JHP. I have out of the 200 I've made, and 180 I've shot, 4 that would not feed at all. Probably another 8 that would feed after I used my thumb as a sort of "battery assist" on the back of the slide to push it that last little bit into battery. I'm getting close but not THAT close to the booklet's time to replace the spring. I haven't shot enough factory loads to know if they present the same issue. I've got three choices I came up with on my own... The sping is wearing out- which I consider possible but unlikely I haven't broken it down and oiled the slide lately- only slightly more plausible in my mind than the spring The powder charge is insufficient - very unlikely as it's the middle of the range, and they won't load on a "sling shot" either. My die is not QUITE taper crimping the flare enough on that 1% of rounds. - I suppose most likely, but confusing on the small number of occurences. Something else I haven't thought of.

August 11, 2013, 06:30 PM	#2
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	If you still have the offending rounds then try backing the seating plug out of your seating die. Turn it down about 1/16 of a turn, then try to chamber the round. Repeat in 1/16 turn increments till it chambers. Take the round, then run it back throgh again stop when it is all the way on the upstroke, and hold it. Turn the seater die down till it touches the bullet. Done. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

August 11, 2013, 06:39 PM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	My guess is powder charge. I don't know your data source but Alliant shows 9.4gr max for 180gr SGD. That would indicate a starting load of around 8.5gr. Even allowing for a different (and probably longer) bullet, you're almost a grain below starting loads. QuickLoad agrees, saying that load would produce only about 10,000 psi. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; August 11, 2013 at 06:46 PM.

August 11, 2013, 07:36 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	That in itself seems strange. I don't know why they'd have a 20% reduced starting load. In any case, QuickLoad and Alliant agree that a starting load would be at least 8.0gr, if not 8.5. I'd step it up to at least 8.0 and see if the problem goes away. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

August 11, 2013, 08:34 PM	#7
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	1) I don't like wet 1911s and I have only found that oiling makes mud. Very little oil needed. 2) New gun? Needs about 200 round to break-in. 3) Remove the barrel from the gun. Take the non-feeding rounds and coat the bullet and case with black Magic Marker/Sharpee. Drop in chamber. Rotate a little. Remove round and look at scratches. That tells you exactly where the problem is: mark on bullet--COL too long mark at case mouth--not enough flare/bell removed mark on case where bottom of bullet is--not enough case expansion (not talking flare/bell, but case expansion)--get a slightly larger expander or start using the expander die properly mark just above the extractor groove--case was bulged and you didn't "iron" it out--get a Lee Bulge Buster kit and the Lee FCD. This will often show up as a raised ridge going partially around the case (from a bulge at the feed ramp). If everything there is fine, you may be using a COL that is too short. Try a longer COL. When you set up, make two inert (no primer or powder) rounds so you can try various COLs and make sure they feed and chamber easily before you reload real ammunition.

August 12, 2013, 06:54 AM	#8
Revoltella Junior member Join Date: August 7, 2013 Posts: 198	Check that your sizing die is properly set to full length size your cases. If you're having o use your thumb to get the slide into battery, it sounds like bottom of the case isn't getting sized.

August 13, 2013, 12:04 AM	#10
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	Setting up dies: Be sure to have a case or a case and bullet in the die to be sure it is aligned properly (i.e., screw sizing down to touch shell holder, lower ram, insert case in shell holder, raise ram, with case in die tighten the lock ring). COL in manual is the MINIMUM that the data applies to and is not listed as a recommended COL for the handloader. Some manuals list a max COL, but they forget to mention that the max COL is the max COL allowed by SAAMI for testing by the industry and is STILL a minimum COL as far as the handloader is concerned. COL is entirely the handloader's responsibility. SAAMI wants pressure tested at a COL that handloaders and factory ammo are not likely to go below. If you go to a shorter COL, you need to reduce charges. If you go to longer COL, you MAY be able to increase charges slightly. However, I have found that a given reduction in COL increases pressure a lot more than a comparable increase in COL reduces pressure. Headspacing, forgetting any technical definition and simply talking about the distance between the breech and the case head when the round is fully forward (case mouth actually against the start of the throat or the bullet actually against the lede/rifling), is totally separate from feeding. In reality, almost all cases are too short for minimum head spacing. Loading a lot longer COL, such that the lower ogive and bearing surface of the bullet is closer to the lede/rifling, will reduce "head space." Feeding depends on when the magazine releases the round and where the bullet is when the round impacts the feed ramp. Too short or too long will both cause feeding problems. Too short will often cause the nose of the bullet to end up stuck against the top of the chamber. Too long and the bullet often sticks against the feed ramp. This is a "general" rule and rounds end up doing whatever they want too many times. A 10% reduction from max for start load is simply the old industry "rule of thumb" when they only printed max loads. Today, many manuals start all powders at the same velocity or the same pressure and some well behaved powders can have a large range from start to max and others, that I consider not useful, have less than 0.5gn between start and max (not counting loads where the max is 3.5gn or less).

August 13, 2013, 01:17 PM	#12
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	Gage the loaded rounds in a case gage or remove the bbl and use it. The round should drop all the way in to the chamber, you should hear a plunk sound. If it goes plunk it should chamber OK. Fed. cases seem to be thicker than others. I would bet you don't have this problem with Remington cases. A lot of the Fed. I reload have a bulge at the base of the bullet. They don't cause much problem in My autos but I have a 625 revolver that will not tolerate an oversize round.