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Old March 15, 2009, 10:16 AM   #1
Dragon55
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Bullseye behind a 200gr lead Ranier???

My sons just got me into reloading. I've reloaded 500+ rds 40 S&W 165gr with no issues. All shot well at range. (3" group at 15 yards). Now I got these 'cheap' Rainier 200gr "copper coated???" bullets. I have been unable to find a straight answer on a starting powder charge using Bullseye. Any help from you old pros??
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:24 AM   #2
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On the Rainier web site they recommend them to be loaded with lead data. I load Rainier and Berry's plated with middle jacketed data without any problems. I would start at least in the middle lead data and work up.
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:33 AM   #3
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Thanx... but I haven't invested in any data books yet. The tables that came with my Lee reloading rig only goes to 180 grain lead bullet table calls out minimum 5.0 grains.... maximum 5.5. So..... I'm guessing maybe 4.8 to start for the 200gr?????
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:40 AM   #4
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You really need to get one or two good reloading manuals. You can also get reloading data from the powder manufactures. Try Hodgdon or Alliant on line.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Guessing can be too dangerous.
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:49 AM   #5
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Thanx Crusty..... one more question. I like to understand the logic of stuff so tell me...
Why do I load less powder to push a heavier bullet?? I know this probably sounds like a stupid question to someone who has reloaded for years but I'd just like to hear the answer.
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon55 View Post
My sons just got me into reloading. I've reloaded 500+ rds 40 S&W 165gr with no issues. All shot well at range. (3" group at 15 yards). Now I got these 'cheap' Rainier 200gr "copper coated???" bullets. I have been unable to find a straight answer on a starting powder charge using Bullseye. Any help from you old pros??
My information says 3.4gr to 4.6gr of Bullseye for a 200gr bullet.

But you ABSOLUTELY NEED to buy a proper reloading manual or two. Like Crusty said, guessing *IS* dangerous!
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Thanx Crusty..... one more question. I like to understand the logic of stuff so tell me...
Why do I load less powder to push a heavier bullet?? I know this probably sounds like a stupid question to someone who has reloaded for years but I'd just like to hear the answer.
A heavier bullet will raise the pressure. You need to reduce the powder charge to stay at a safe operating pressure. I would recommend the Speer or Lyman manual. A good manual is a must.
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:58 AM   #8
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Thanx.... but again... why less powder for heavier bullet? Is it something to do with the pressures ?
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Old March 15, 2009, 11:03 AM   #9
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OK ... I will get a manual since I'll probably be reloading 45's for my son..... and maybe 223's. FWIW I'm very meticulous about stuff... Takes me a long time because I basically stare at every round after every process. Hey I'm mostly doing it for the Zen of it anyway.
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Old March 15, 2009, 11:44 AM   #10
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Over-max?

Dragon55,

I did calcs with QuickLoad using 4.8 grains of Bullseye in a .40 S&W case behind a 200 grain Ranier plated FP bullet, assuming standard case volume, catridge overall length, etc. Your guestimate of 4.8 gains ob Bullseye looks like an over-max charge.

You need to realize that TWO things are happening when you go to a heavier bullet. The obvious one is that the bullet is heavier and therefore moves out of the case more slowly when the charge burns, allowing pressure to build faster than when a lighter bullet is used. The second in that the heavier bullet is longer, and, since it sticks out of the case only about as far as the lighter bullet, it leaves less space inside the case for the powder. That second factor is a MUCh bigger cause for pressure increase when the case is already small to begin with, like the .40 S&W and 9mm.

Until you have a lot more data to work from and a lot more expertise in adjusting pressure-tested data for loads to slightly different circumstances, I STRONGLY suggest that you not stray from pressure-tested published data. And, be especially careful of information you get from individuals on the Net. Just because somebody says "I use X.XX grains of "superbang" powder in my pistol doesn't mean he is in safe territiory. You should at least look for somebody to tell you his/her data source when providing load data.

That said, Lee's "Modern Reloading -Second Edition" lists 4.2 to 4.6 grains of Bullseye with a 200 grain JACKETED bullet, but does not list Bullseyes with a 200 grain lead bullet. That seems consistent with my QuickLoad calcs. So, I think you can safely use that data for your Raniers. Typically, plated bullets do not give higher pressures than jacketed bullets. Also, remember to start at the minimum charge and work-up in small increments (0.1 grain in this situation) looking for pressure signs.

I also STRONGLY suggest that you buy at least TWO loading manuals. Lee's is a good one for you to start with. If you like a particular manufacturer's bullets, say Speer or Hornady, then I suggest that your other book be that manufacturer's manual. These manuals will BEGIN to explain some of the things you need to be careful with.

Please learn how to be safe as you pursue this hobby.

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Old March 15, 2009, 11:53 AM   #11
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Thanx SL1... Specific data like your post is great. I absolutely realize the safety concerns and was not planning to do any experimentation. The reason I chose the 165 grain bullets initially was because I DID have specific data that came with my reloading equipment. I think based on what I've read today that a Lyman manual is in my ery near future.
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Old March 15, 2009, 12:01 PM   #12
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Great info in this thread already. I've just got one question for the masses, or at least point something out.

200 grain bullet in .40 S&W? 200 grain is pretty much the heaviest typical bullet you'll find in 10mm loads. While there are a few non-standard 10 loads in heavier bullets, it's pretty standard that 200 grain is the heavy loading.

I've not heard of .40 S&W rounds using bullets of this weight. Sounds like too much bullet in a high-pressure, small case, and VERY unforgiving caliber.

I looked at some of my sources and they list 200 grain loads in .40 S&W, but it doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

Are there factory loadings in .40 S&W with 200 grain bullets?
I'll admit up front that I don't have a .40, I've never loaded for one, and I don't see myself drawn to the caliber at all. Could be that I've just been living under a rock or I'm such a jaded 10 guy that it sounds goofy to put that heavy a bullet in the .40.
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Old March 15, 2009, 01:15 PM   #13
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Are there factory loadings in .40 S&W with 200 grain bullets?
I'll admit up front that I don't have a .40, I've never loaded for one, and I don't see myself drawn to the caliber at all. Could be that I've just been living under a rock or I'm such a jaded 10 guy that it sounds goofy to put that heavy a bullet in the .40.
Not that I'm aware of–180gr loads are pretty much the max with 40 S&W.

You're not living under a rock either–a 200gr bullet is best left for 10mm Auto loading. If a 180gr isn't enough for 40 S&W, you need to pick a different caliber (like 10mm).
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Old March 15, 2009, 01:37 PM   #14
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Actually, a 10mm IS the same "caliber" as the 40S&W. But, I would not load 200s in the 40 either. I would stick with 180 as max for the 40. My "assumption" would be that the 200gr bullet was actually intended for the 10mm cartridge.
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Old March 15, 2009, 02:10 PM   #15
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Actually, a 10mm IS the same "caliber" as the 40S&W
C'mon, like you didn't know what the heck I was saying.
I've had my 10mm since 1992 and that's when I started handloading for it. I've got two 10's now, I use four different powders and four different bullet weights when I concoct loads for it. (I have some 200 grain LTC's that I like out of my 1006 in that heavy weight)

No doubt that the commercial success of the .40 S&W caliber has been a good thing for folks like me who handload for the 10mm when it comes to component bullet availability.
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Old March 15, 2009, 03:25 PM   #16
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I evidently used the wrong emoticon. I was just picking at ya and was not trying to belittle your great knowledge which you have shown on many occassions. I have not handloaded for the 10mm yet but have owned a Delta Elite for about 12yrs.
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Old March 15, 2009, 05:37 PM   #17
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was not trying to belittle your great knowledge
Hey there pal, that'll be enough of that!

Yeah, I've got ya. BTW, there are at least three really great contributors to this area of TFL and I'm not one of them. I try to handle softball questions so that they have more time for the real ones.

I fell in love with the Delta when it came out... I wrote an english paper on it in high school, and interviewed my FFL who bought one when they were BRAND new. When it came time to buy, I went for the beefier one that wasn't getting the (deserved or undeserved) reputation for getting battered.

I can't believe that you reload... and you have had a 10 for 12 yrs... and you don't reload 10mm. That's like dividing by zero-- doesn't compute.

I hope YOU ain't the guy that keeps polluting the ranges with that aluminum CCI Blazer crap in 10mm! (just makes me mad that someone didn't scatter some real brass for me to chase, y'know?)
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Old March 15, 2009, 06:25 PM   #18
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Well guys now that I've come back this evening and read latest posts I am really regretting my 'bargain' purchase of the 200g bullets. I am gonna load 3 or 4 at 4gr of Bullseye and see what happens.
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Old March 15, 2009, 07:51 PM   #19
Sevens
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I am really regretting my 'bargain' purchase of the 200g bullets.
Well, if they were a really good buy... why not simply hang on to them in the chance that you go 10mm one day?

Or forward the discount to someone who does have a 10mm, so they can use them? Maybe swap 'em for something you can use.
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