Why A Pump Over Auto For Home Defense - Page 2

TheKlawMan · April 12, 2011, 06:33 PM

The point raised by This Is Nascar is a very good one (the ability to use lighter loads) and especially if you have over penetration problems, as in an apartment or condo, although I doubt many consider it when chosing a pump.

The ability to eat any ammo, low recoil or dirty WalMart stuff, is even more important in a long term survival situtation where the selection of available ammo is limited.

Technosavant · April 12, 2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Don't rely on acoustics to ward off a committed assailant's plan of attack. More often than not, all the sound of a shucking pump does is to betray your whereabouts.

I've heard this, and while true, the other information conveyed (along with your GENERAL whereabouts... Mr. Robby McBurglar won't know your exact location... he isn't DareDevil...) are little datums such as the homeowner knows there's an intruder, the homeowner is armed with a weapon of significant capability, and the homeowner is prepared to use said weapon on said intruder.

With the advantage of surprise gone, the home invader is now in an unfamiliar place with an adversary who is not only armed at least as well (probably armed way better, even) and knows the territory intimately. To say nothing of that homeowner having the law 100% on his/her side in most states.

But then again, keep in mind that chambering a round in a semiauto is not a silent action either, so location information can be deduced from that act as well.

freenokia · April 12, 2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Gentlemen:

There is no question based on available models, that the pump shotgun is more popular than the auto for home defense. My question is "Why"?

Most people site the occurance of a failure to feed as the primary reason. Well, I have over 10,000 rounds in my Remington 1100 and it has never failed to feed. Of course I keep it clean, but for a home defense weapon, how would it ever get dirty?

I would be curious to know the other reasons that people think a pump is better than an auto.

My 1100 choked on one last time i took it out...First time in 15years

...But I like pumps over autos for the same reason I like revolvers over semi's. They don't choke due to under/over powered ammo.

jmortimer · April 12, 2011, 10:15 PM

An 870 is more likely to jam than a top grade semi-auto like an FN or a Benelli assuming you have appropriate ammunition. The world record holding SX3 semi-auto will go hundreds of thousands of rounds with no FTF. I think the whole pump a shotgun action and the BG will pee his pants is way over rated. I'll take an FN SLP over any pump action for self defense - way faster, less recoil and probably more reliable with the right ammunition.

shooter1911 · April 12, 2011, 10:47 PM

I think people who don't have experience with 1100s just don't understand. I have had my 1100 since 1967, and have hunted dove, quail, pheasant, and shot skeet and trap. In all that shooting I have had one ftf. That was due to a clogged gas port that was quickly opened with a tooth pick. In other words I forgot to clean my ports after extensive shooting one time.

One of the best features of the 1100 for HD is I can shoot 00Buck one right after the other with very little recoil, and I can practice with the lowest cost and power shells. Also there is no chance of short shucking a shell as is commonly experienced under stress with pumps.

Remington recently came out with an 18 1/2" barrel for the 1100, and I plan on getting one which will give me the perfect HD shotgun.

jmortimer · April 12, 2011, 11:24 PM

"Remington recently came out with an 18 1/2" barrel for the 1100, and I plan on getting one which will give me the perfect HD shotgun"
Yes you will.

Technosavant · April 13, 2011, 10:27 AM

Quote:

I think people who don't have experience with 1100s just don't understand. I have had my 1100 since 1967, and have hunted dove, quail, pheasant, and shot skeet and trap. In all that shooting I have had one ftf. That was due to a clogged gas port that was quickly opened with a tooth pick. In other words I forgot to clean my ports after extensive shooting one time.

I have 1100 experience. Great gun. Wish they still made them in the many varieties (they keep killing it and bringing back different variants). However, there's more than just the gas system that can hang one up. The one I was using would not reliably feed the Federal value pack ammo; it would do the Remington and even the Winchester (the Win is notoriously bad stuff), but the Federal would hang up on the shell lifter for some unknown reason.

That's a failure that is not going to happen in a pump.

mathman · April 13, 2011, 10:39 AM

IMO it is cost and the fact that pumps have been around longer. If everyone grew up shooting Benellis (for example) then more people would prefer them over pumps. Pumps are cheaper and reliable...and this is enough for most people.

I prefer autos over pumps because they shoot fast and there is one less thing to think about (operating the pump).

The 'scary noise' that a pump makes is highly overrated.

shooter1911 · April 13, 2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

I have 1100 experience. Great gun. Wish they still made them in the many varieties (they keep killing it and bringing back different variants). However, there's more than just the gas system that can hang one up. The one I was using would not reliably feed the Federal value pack ammo; it would do the Remington and even the Winchester (the Win is notoriously bad stuff), but the Federal would hang up on the shell lifter for some unknown reason.

That's a failure that is not going to happen in a pump.

Very true, but you shouldn't be using "Value Pack" ammo in any weapon for SD. As mentioned before I have had one hang up since 1967 in my 1100, and that's shooting everything imaginable, including value pack ammo. 1100s are just like any semi auto. Some are finicky and some are not. Luckily I got one I can trust with my life.

hogdogs · April 13, 2011, 11:05 AM

Mathman says...

Quote:

I prefer autos over pumps because they shoot fast and there is one less thing to think about (operating the pump).

When you force yourself to practice enuff... Cycling the action on a pump and pulling the trigger is as second nature as brushin' yer teeth... No thought required...

Under hard core practice, I could walk my shooting arrangement lettin' rounds fly and the hardest thing I had to learn was to keep track of how many rounds were already sent downrange as I wanted to know when I was down to one last round.

Brent

new_scopeshooter · April 13, 2011, 11:08 AM

I have owned both types and have used both types for hd. The ideas of pumps being more reliable isn't a stretch from the truth. I have had rem 1100s that jam. But I have never had pump jam. Half or short jacking a pump can happen. Bottom line is you need to buy what you like(or can afford) and practice with it!! If you shoot ur auto or pump enough u will know what rounds feed the best and what pattern the best out of ur gun.
Never never buy a gun and leave it ready for use if you have never figured out how it works. And with what ammo!!
I now use a win 1300 with mag ext and a smoth bore slug barrel!!

Old Grump · April 13, 2011, 01:19 PM

I came late to the semi-auto owner camp but it has been as reliable as any other gun I have. My criteria is I use the one I am most familiar with and I can shoot 5 rounds on target faster with the pump than I can with the semi just because I am so much more used to it.

I have no problem using either and I have no intention of trying to scare a boogerman by cycling my pump. Both guns stay loaded with a round chambered because a gun unchambered is a club. The only thing a boogerman is going to hear is my command to freeze and identify himself. The only other sound would be a safety coming off and Bang if I don't hear or see an appropriate response. It won't matter to the boogerman which gun it is and it won't matter to me.

LordTio3 · April 13, 2011, 01:39 PM

It's almost like no one remembers with THIS was the top of the line in home defense...

Since when did, "Give 'em both barrels" become obsolete in favor of a consistent wall of buckshot?

In all honesty, any model of shotgun is good for home defense. I also don't really see a semi-auto 12 ga as having a substantial advantage over any other shotgun design above a single-shot.

~LT

Technosavant · April 13, 2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Very true, but you shouldn't be using "Value Pack" ammo in any weapon for SD.

Oh, no argument. Just saying that it's more than the gas system that can cause issues; if the shell coming out of the magazine doesn't trip the bolt release, you're hung up.

Murphy will show, and boy, is he a jerk.

TheKlawMan · April 13, 2011, 01:49 PM

What shooter1911 said about picking up an 18.5" barrel for an 1100 caused me to think of one reason a lot of us get a pump for home defense. Besides the reputation a pump has for reliability, how prevalent are short barrel semis?
To me an HD length is no more than 21" and the shorter the better.

TheKlawMan · April 13, 2011, 02:04 PM

I don't understand Old Grump. If you are concerned with giving away your position, why tell them to freeze and identify. Racking one immediately before giving a challenge tends to add some authority. Also, depending on ambient light, I may light up the target with a weapon light and that is likely to give away my general position. At the same time it hopefully temporarily blinds and disorients the BG. As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.

dgludwig · April 13, 2011, 02:20 PM

Quote:

As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.

I've got to disagree with this approach. It only takes an instant to disengage a safety and I'm not moving it off until I mean to shoot the bg; not just when I'm "suspecting" his presence. No different than shooting grouse over a dog. Only at the flush does the safety come off, not when the only thing I see is my setter on point.

BigJimP · April 13, 2011, 02:21 PM

If I wanted a "Tactical fighting shotgun" ....I'd pick the semi-auto Benelli M-4 ...its a gas operated gun. And I hear it all the time in gunshops...its a great gun / but its too expensive ...and they don't offer enough "tacky - cool" junk to hang off it ....

http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php

They list at $ 1,799/and in my area they are selling new for around $ 1625. I think its a solid gun / I've fired a few of them at my local range / nothing not to like about them in my opinion.

I think the argument about pump vs semi-auto reliability is overblown / if you look at some of the better semi-autos on the market today ( not the $ 300 import specials ) .../ but old bias dies hard...
------------------
I just don't subscribe to the idea that everyone needs a "Tactical shotgun" or they are somehow under-gunned ...in the event of something / but then I don't think everyone needs a black rifle either ...

I realize I'm old school / but my primary defense is handled by a Wilson Combat 1911 chambered in .45 acp / and my backup sock drawer gun is a Sig 226 in .40S&W ....and if I have to fight my way to my safe ...there are any number of shotguns and rifles that can come out if necessary ....but an 8 round mag in a 1911 / if you practice with it weekly ( and I do ) is an excellent defensive weapon.

My other issue with many of the Tactical Shotguns / mostly pump guns...isn't really with the gun --- its with the owners - and there are way too many of them that get purchased because they look cool - and everyone thinks they "need one" .../ the owner and his buddies fire 20 rds ..maybe even 60 rds of OO buck with it / or slugs or whatever when its new ....then it gets put away / leans in the corner of a closet or somewhere ...for 5 yrs or more / without every being touched again.

They aren't particularly fun to shoot / they aren't any good at clays / OO Buck and slugs are expensive ( $ 60 for 100 rds or so ) ....and a lot of guys spending $ 250 on a shotgun don't want to spend another $ 60 to fire 100 rds .../ and I get it ....but if its a primary defensive weapon / and you don't train with it - don't use it .../ you're relying on the "image" of it being a perfect defensive weapon ...when you might just be kidding yourself...

Some guys do the same thing with handguns ....buy a gun / put 100 rds thru it ...put it away for 5 yrs ...and think they're protected ...its just as nuts !! Maybe its even worse / because the muscle memory to manipulate a handgun is probably tougher than manipulating a shotgun ....but its still nuts!

In my opinon --- if you think you need a weapon for defense ( and not everyone does ! -- or not everyone should ! --- especially if they aren't going to train with them !! .......but if you do ....buying a pump shotgun, or a good quality semi-auto shotgun ...or a good handgun ....can all be effective ....if you train with them and are competent with them !! Pump vs semi-auto shotgun makes no difference ...

I just wish more guys would think about the time they spend training and shooting vs what to buy .......and then leave it in a closet ! One of my boys is in his mid 30's ....and 90% of his buddies have purchased Rem 870's tactical shotguns ...and not a single one of them has fired their shotgun in well over 3 yrs. My son lives about 4 hours from me ....and we get together 6 or 8 times a yr ...to shoot some skeet, sporting, etc ...and do some handgun training with revolvers and 1911's, etc .... and its not a scientific study ....but in that group of young guys that goes with us to the range ....I just keep asking ...have you shot that 870 in awhile ...and its ...a slumped shoulder, hang head ....no ..... ??? I think its a one in a gazillion chance any of them will every need a defensive weapon ...or at least I hope so ...but if they won't train with them ...I wish they'd lock em up ...until they do.

I think if you ask among your buddies that have them -- its going to be a high percentage of guys that never shoot them ....sadly ...

Old Grump · April 13, 2011, 02:23 PM

Quote:

I don't understand Old Grump. If you are concerned with giving away your position, why tell them to freeze and identify. Racking one immediately before giving a challenge tends to add some authority. Also, depending on ambient light, I may light up the target with a weapon light and that is likely to give away my general position. At the same time it hopefully temporarily blinds and disorients the BG. As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.

Relying on a sound to scare an intruder is counterproductive. What if it is a family member, you scare the bejesus out of him and he makes a sudden move towards their room and you mistake it for an aggressive move. You shot Junior for trying to sneak in after a late date and you didn't even know he was gone out of the house. Point is an unchambered gun is an empty gun and while I'm pumping the bad guy could be shooting.

If I yell freeze he has the opportunity to run, freeze or identify himself. Wrong response I only have to aim and pull the trigger. If it's multiple intruders and they are identified as intruders there is no warning clack-kathunk. Just a loud noise, a flash of light and a scream of pain from the unlucky guy who just caught a load of #4 in the side of his head. Advantage mine.

If I pump the gun first I have 3 or 4 guns shooting in my direction, advantage them.

stonewall50 · April 13, 2011, 03:18 PM

+535 to Lordtio

There is nothing wrong with any shotgun save the single shot(which still would perform just fine). I have never had an FTF with my 870 in all the duck, dove, geese, turkey, skeet, and sporting clays I have shot. The only errors I recall were when I was younger and loaded a shell in backwards when my nerves were going crazy during a goose shoot. The BIGGEST issue with autoloaders is without question their reliability when it comes down to AMMO. Pumps will not have the same failure to eject issue with questionable ammo that an auto will. But if you are willing to put the time and effort and coin into buying proper ammo and testing it, then there is no debate on which is better. It remains shooter preference.

The issue of what is better must be stopped because to each his own. The fastest follow up shot from a shotgun will be from a double barrel anyway. There is a reason proffessional hunters in Africa use double rifles, not autos, pumps, bolts, or any of that on the big game. They use large bore doubles.

And again...not everyone can afford a $1500 dollar gun. I will take the $200 and spend that extra $1300 on ammo to practice with. That way it doesn't really matter if it is an autoloader or pump I will still have an edge because I fired $1300 worth of ammo out of a gun that I know I can trust lol.

TheKlawMan · April 13, 2011, 03:30 PM

Old Grump. You may well be right and I may be all wrong, but in a situation where there are 3 or 4 armed intruders I suspect one's best chance of survival is avoiding a gun fight. I just don't see a group of armed men being overly concerned with a challenge unless they realize it is backed up by something better than a baseball bat and once you pull the trigger the fight is on.

edrice · April 14, 2011, 01:38 PM

One very important item I don't think anyone has brought up is the ability to combat load with the pump. Watch how fast this cowbay action shooter combat loads the pump - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw

You'd have a hard time doing that with a semi-auto.

Also, I was in shotgun course last year and the guy to my left had two jams during the course with a Benelli semi-auto. The instructor had to come over and help him untangle it each time. I was using a 590 and the only problem I had was I short-stroked it one time, but recovered quickly with almost no time lost.

Ed

Vince44 · April 14, 2011, 01:54 PM

I have an 1100 and a variety of others. I like this one as far as a double barrel.

zippy13 · April 14, 2011, 02:17 PM

I with Big Jim on this one. While I have various shotguns and a black rifle, my go-to HD guns are .45-ACPs.

oneounceload · April 14, 2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

I've got to disagree with this approach. It only takes an instant to disengage a safety and I'm not moving it off until I mean to shoot the bg; not just when I'm "suspecting" his presence. No different than shooting grouse over a dog. Only at the flush does the safety come off, not when the only thing I see is my setter on point.

And I'll disagree with this - get the safety button off, the REAL safety is between your ears - don't put your booger hook on the bang switch until you are ready to fire - whether over your dog or in your hallway - it is faster to put your finger on the trigger than to take the safety off and possibly move your grip

April 12, 2011, 06:33 PM	#26
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	The point raised by This Is Nascar is a very good one (the ability to use lighter loads) and especially if you have over penetration problems, as in an apartment or condo, although I doubt many consider it when chosing a pump. The ability to eat any ammo, low recoil or dirty WalMart stuff, is even more important in a long term survival situtation where the selection of available ammo is limited. Last edited by TheKlawMan; April 12, 2011 at 07:10 PM.

April 13, 2011, 10:39 AM	#33
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	IMO it is cost and the fact that pumps have been around longer. If everyone grew up shooting Benellis (for example) then more people would prefer them over pumps. Pumps are cheaper and reliable...and this is enough for most people. I prefer autos over pumps because they shoot fast and there is one less thing to think about (operating the pump). The 'scary noise' that a pump makes is highly overrated. __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

April 13, 2011, 01:19 PM	#37
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	I came late to the semi-auto owner camp but it has been as reliable as any other gun I have. My criteria is I use the one I am most familiar with and I can shoot 5 rounds on target faster with the pump than I can with the semi just because I am so much more used to it. I have no problem using either and I have no intention of trying to scare a boogerman by cycling my pump. Both guns stay loaded with a round chambered because a gun unchambered is a club. The only thing a boogerman is going to hear is my command to freeze and identify himself. The only other sound would be a safety coming off and Bang if I don't hear or see an appropriate response. It won't matter to the boogerman which gun it is and it won't matter to me. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

April 13, 2011, 01:39 PM	#38
LordTio3 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 850	It's almost like no one remembers with THIS was the top of the line in home defense... Since when did, "Give 'em both barrels" become obsolete in favor of a consistent wall of buckshot? In all honesty, any model of shotgun is good for home defense. I also don't really see a semi-auto 12 ga as having a substantial advantage over any other shotgun design above a single-shot. ~LT __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom.

April 13, 2011, 03:18 PM	#45
stonewall50 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 668	+535 to Lordtio There is nothing wrong with any shotgun save the single shot(which still would perform just fine). I have never had an FTF with my 870 in all the duck, dove, geese, turkey, skeet, and sporting clays I have shot. The only errors I recall were when I was younger and loaded a shell in backwards when my nerves were going crazy during a goose shoot. The BIGGEST issue with autoloaders is without question their reliability when it comes down to AMMO. Pumps will not have the same failure to eject issue with questionable ammo that an auto will. But if you are willing to put the time and effort and coin into buying proper ammo and testing it, then there is no debate on which is better. It remains shooter preference. The issue of what is better must be stopped because to each his own. The fastest follow up shot from a shotgun will be from a double barrel anyway. There is a reason proffessional hunters in Africa use double rifles, not autos, pumps, bolts, or any of that on the big game. They use large bore doubles. And again...not everyone can afford a $1500 dollar gun. I will take the $200 and spend that extra $1300 on ammo to practice with. That way it doesn't really matter if it is an autoloader or pump I will still have an edge because I fired $1300 worth of ammo out of a gun that I know I can trust lol. __________________ Faith Reason Fraternus

April 12, 2011, 10:15 PM	#29
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	An 870 is more likely to jam than a top grade semi-auto like an FN or a Benelli assuming you have appropriate ammunition. The world record holding SX3 semi-auto will go hundreds of thousands of rounds with no FTF. I think the whole pump a shotgun action and the BG will pee his pants is way over rated. I'll take an FN SLP over any pump action for self defense - way faster, less recoil and probably more reliable with the right ammunition.

April 12, 2011, 10:47 PM	#30
shooter1911 Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: DFW Area Posts: 265	I think people who don't have experience with 1100s just don't understand. I have had my 1100 since 1967, and have hunted dove, quail, pheasant, and shot skeet and trap. In all that shooting I have had one ftf. That was due to a clogged gas port that was quickly opened with a tooth pick. In other words I forgot to clean my ports after extensive shooting one time. One of the best features of the 1100 for HD is I can shoot 00Buck one right after the other with very little recoil, and I can practice with the lowest cost and power shells. Also there is no chance of short shucking a shell as is commonly experienced under stress with pumps. Remington recently came out with an 18 1/2" barrel for the 1100, and I plan on getting one which will give me the perfect HD shotgun.

April 12, 2011, 11:24 PM	#31
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	"Remington recently came out with an 18 1/2" barrel for the 1100, and I plan on getting one which will give me the perfect HD shotgun" Yes you will.

April 13, 2011, 11:08 AM	#36
new_scopeshooter Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2011 Location: central ohio Posts: 391	I have owned both types and have used both types for hd. The ideas of pumps being more reliable isn't a stretch from the truth. I have had rem 1100s that jam. But I have never had pump jam. Half or short jacking a pump can happen. Bottom line is you need to buy what you like(or can afford) and practice with it!! If you shoot ur auto or pump enough u will know what rounds feed the best and what pattern the best out of ur gun. Never never buy a gun and leave it ready for use if you have never figured out how it works. And with what ammo!! I now use a win 1300 with mag ext and a smoth bore slug barrel!!

April 13, 2011, 01:49 PM	#40
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	What shooter1911 said about picking up an 18.5" barrel for an 1100 caused me to think of one reason a lot of us get a pump for home defense. Besides the reputation a pump has for reliability, how prevalent are short barrel semis? To me an HD length is no more than 21" and the shorter the better.

April 13, 2011, 02:04 PM	#41
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	I don't understand Old Grump. If you are concerned with giving away your position, why tell them to freeze and identify. Racking one immediately before giving a challenge tends to add some authority. Also, depending on ambient light, I may light up the target with a weapon light and that is likely to give away my general position. At the same time it hopefully temporarily blinds and disorients the BG. As for the safety, the first thing I am doing upon suspecting the presence of an intruder is taking it off.

April 13, 2011, 02:21 PM	#43
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	If I wanted a "Tactical fighting shotgun" ....I'd pick the semi-auto Benelli M-4 ...its a gas operated gun. And I hear it all the time in gunshops...its a great gun / but its too expensive ...and they don't offer enough "tacky - cool" junk to hang off it .... http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php They list at $ 1,799/and in my area they are selling new for around $ 1625. I think its a solid gun / I've fired a few of them at my local range / nothing not to like about them in my opinion. I think the argument about pump vs semi-auto reliability is overblown / if you look at some of the better semi-autos on the market today ( not the $ 300 import specials ) .../ but old bias dies hard... ------------------ I just don't subscribe to the idea that everyone needs a "Tactical shotgun" or they are somehow under-gunned ...in the event of something / but then I don't think everyone needs a black rifle either ... I realize I'm old school / but my primary defense is handled by a Wilson Combat 1911 chambered in .45 acp / and my backup sock drawer gun is a Sig 226 in .40S&W ....and if I have to fight my way to my safe ...there are any number of shotguns and rifles that can come out if necessary ....but an 8 round mag in a 1911 / if you practice with it weekly ( and I do ) is an excellent defensive weapon. My other issue with many of the Tactical Shotguns / mostly pump guns...isn't really with the gun --- its with the owners - and there are way too many of them that get purchased because they look cool - and everyone thinks they "need one" .../ the owner and his buddies fire 20 rds ..maybe even 60 rds of OO buck with it / or slugs or whatever when its new ....then it gets put away / leans in the corner of a closet or somewhere ...for 5 yrs or more / without every being touched again. They aren't particularly fun to shoot / they aren't any good at clays / OO Buck and slugs are expensive ( $ 60 for 100 rds or so ) ....and a lot of guys spending $ 250 on a shotgun don't want to spend another $ 60 to fire 100 rds .../ and I get it ....but if its a primary defensive weapon / and you don't train with it - don't use it .../ you're relying on the "image" of it being a perfect defensive weapon ...when you might just be kidding yourself... Some guys do the same thing with handguns ....buy a gun / put 100 rds thru it ...put it away for 5 yrs ...and think they're protected ...its just as nuts !! Maybe its even worse / because the muscle memory to manipulate a handgun is probably tougher than manipulating a shotgun ....but its still nuts! In my opinon --- if you think you need a weapon for defense ( and not everyone does ! -- or not everyone should ! --- especially if they aren't going to train with them !! .......but if you do ....buying a pump shotgun, or a good quality semi-auto shotgun ...or a good handgun ....can all be effective ....if you train with them and are competent with them !! Pump vs semi-auto shotgun makes no difference ... I just wish more guys would think about the time they spend training and shooting vs what to buy .......and then leave it in a closet ! One of my boys is in his mid 30's ....and 90% of his buddies have purchased Rem 870's tactical shotguns ...and not a single one of them has fired their shotgun in well over 3 yrs. My son lives about 4 hours from me ....and we get together 6 or 8 times a yr ...to shoot some skeet, sporting, etc ...and do some handgun training with revolvers and 1911's, etc .... and its not a scientific study ....but in that group of young guys that goes with us to the range ....I just keep asking ...have you shot that 870 in awhile ...and its ...a slumped shoulder, hang head ....no ..... ??? I think its a one in a gazillion chance any of them will every need a defensive weapon ...or at least I hope so ...but if they won't train with them ...I wish they'd lock em up ...until they do. I think if you ask among your buddies that have them -- its going to be a high percentage of guys that never shoot them ....sadly ...

April 13, 2011, 03:30 PM	#46
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Old Grump. You may well be right and I may be all wrong, but in a situation where there are 3 or 4 armed intruders I suspect one's best chance of survival is avoiding a gun fight. I just don't see a group of armed men being overly concerned with a challenge unless they realize it is backed up by something better than a baseball bat and once you pull the trigger the fight is on.

April 14, 2011, 01:38 PM	#47
edrice Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Posts: 113	One very important item I don't think anyone has brought up is the ability to combat load with the pump. Watch how fast this cowbay action shooter combat loads the pump - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw You'd have a hard time doing that with a semi-auto. Also, I was in shotgun course last year and the guy to my left had two jams during the course with a Benelli semi-auto. The instructor had to come over and help him untangle it each time. I was using a 590 and the only problem I had was I short-stroked it one time, but recovered quickly with almost no time lost. Ed

April 14, 2011, 02:17 PM	#49
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	I with Big Jim on this one. While I have various shotguns and a black rifle, my go-to HD guns are .45-ACPs.