Hand gun grip

[Roland Thunder]

I have been in the habit of shooting with my index finger wrapped around the front of the trigger guard. Other parts of my drip are pretty standard. Last week, an employee of the range I shhot at told me that it was improper grip to place the index finger around the trigger guard and that was what was likely causing me to shoot low left. On several of my guns, the front of the trigger guard is serrated, so I figure that is what it's for.

What say you?

[Snyper]

If it's working for you, it's not "improper"

Many think it helps control recoil, and it would only affect your POI if you're flinching

It doesn't work for everyone since it takes large hands on some guns

[Sevens]

It was a "proper" and mainstream grip in the 80s and early 90s before folks started paying more attention to such things.

I am also of the camp that if you have a particular grip that isn't wildly outrageous and you can repeat that grip every single time and you are practiced at it, you can make it work. But at the same time -- I think you could also gain from trying replicate a more popular grip that is being taught these days.

I morphed my grip from old school to modern and it has worked very well for me.

[mete]

Back in the 1970s a few gunsmiths started to checker the front of the trigger guard .The forefinger then had a better 'grip' .
Various serious shooters tested out this system .They found that it was not good because it meant having to control another set of muscles.It also was very difficult for those with short fingers !
That should have ended that practice but AFTER it was found to be poor ,gun companies started to square the trigger guard and checker it .Some continue to make guns that way. Another dumb "follow the fad not the facts "

[1-DAB]

i'm not real wild on unsolicited advice. if you can control the gun with your grip, and you are getting good results, then carry on.

if he had couched it in terms of 'there's a better way, would you like me to show you?', that would be one thing. but 'you're doing it wrong!' is pretty off putting.

thumb high, thumb low? whatever works for you.

[wpsdlrg]

My grip varies a bit for each different type of handgun I shoot. I have placed a finger on the front of the trigger guard (with small pistols mostly)...without problems.

The important issue - the ONLY important issue - is what is happening with your grip during the dynamic phase of time from the trigger being squeezed until the bullet clears the barrel. Any secure grip will do, as long as nothing changes to throw off aim during this dynamic phase.

Of course, there are grip techniques that work better than others for almost everyone, but the placement of that finger is really a minor issue overall (unless it creates problems for the individual shooter, of course).

Most grip induced shooting problems have to do with trigger manipulation, not actual grip with the off-hand.

So, if it works for you and you get good results - then it is NOT "wrong".

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by GregInAtl

...that was what was likely causing me to shoot low left...

If you are shooting low-left, something is not working; and it would be a good idea to think about changing things to improve your performance.

Shooting low-left is usually associated with a flinch or jerking the trigger. Having the index finger of your support hand on the front of the trigger guard can exacerbate that by adding more downward torque to the gun as it fires -- especially if you're shooting with a Weaver or modified Weaver stance (using push-pull isometric tension to help manage recoil) or squeezing your hands as the gun fires. We've observed both issues in the classes we teach.

Some students shooting with a Weaver or modified Weaver will anticipate the recoil and increase pull force with the support hand as the gun fires. That tends to dip the muzzle cause a low POI. If they are shooting right handed and the pull exerted by the support (left) hand is not straight back but favors the left side, that moves the POI to the left. And the finger on the front of the trigger guard adds force forward of the the axis of rotation.

Also, we observe that some students, especially when new to shooting, have difficulty disassociating exerting reward pressure with the trigger finger from exerting a squeeze force with the rest of the hand, and sometimes they will squeeze with the support hand as well. But good trigger control means pressing the trigger straight back with only the trigger finger moving. The grip force exerted by the rest of the shooting hand and by the support hand needs to remain constant.

So it looks like you might want to try changing your grip by moving the index finger of your support hand to under the trigger guard and also work on your trigger control. Here's an excellent video by Todd Jarret on the handgun grip.

[T. O'Heir]

"...likely causing me to shoot low left..." Are you? Having a finger on the guard doesn't do squat. Jerking or tightening fingers will send the shot low and left.
http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pi...t_Analysis.pdf

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...likely causing me to shoot low left..." Are you? Having a finger on the guard doesn't do squat. Jerking or tightening fingers will send the shot low and left.
http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pi...t_Analysis.pdf

Not necessarily. See my post 7.

The chart you linked to is from The UIT Pistol Book and the United States Army Marksmanship Training Unit Manual. United States Army Marksmanship Training Unit Manual may also be read here.

Both The UIT Pistol Book and United States Army Marksmanship Training Unit Manual deal with types of competitive pistol shooting in which the rules require that the pistol be fired one-handed. The United States Army Marksmanship Training Unit Manual deals specifically with Bullseye competition. So the chart is geared to one-handed pistol shooting and does not consider the possible influences of a support hand when the pistol is fired in a two-handed grip.

[Art Eatman]

Notice the behavior of the muscles inside your forearm: Firm grip but only moving the trigger finger, compared to squeezing all fingers as you fire.

The first style does not make the hand rotate slightly to the left, and pull downward a bit. "Wristing" causes hits which are low and left of the point of aim.

Mostly, I've noticed shooters placing the index finger of the weak hand to the front of the trigger guard. I don't.

[g.willikers]

There's many things that can cause shooting low and left, for a right hander.
Most can be attributed to the grip.
For a two handed grip, most of the strength of the grip should come from the support hand.
If the shooting hand is doing most of the work, that can be the cause of all the flaws already mentioned, including jerking the trigger.
Improperly using the front of the trigger guard can weaken the support hand grip, and aggravate things.
There are some top shooters who use the method, but they obviously are doing it well.
Like CZ's Angus Hobdell:
http://cz-usa.com/community/czusashootingteam/

[Sevens]

Used to be successful competition revolver shooter that would use his weak hand to HOLD THE BARREL of the revolver... putting his hand forward of the cylinder and flash gap. With light .38 loads and a long barrel, you can get away with this.

But it is not a good discipline to follow.

[g.willikers]

Was he using welders' gloves?
That technique is what made revolver style rifles unpopular.

[Sevens]

He was likely running the classic full wadcutter Bullseye load and his support hand was BLACKENED. It obviously worked for him and pictures of him showed up in magazines in the late 80's, but for sure -- it is not a technique that should be taught.

[Tom Servo]

Like others have mentioned, I don't see that grip causing shots to pattern low and left.

However, I have seen it result in complaints about sore hands and wrists, especially for double-action shooting. I've had several folks complain they just couldn't shoot a revolver in DA well at all. After getting the index finger under the trigger guard, they show drastic improvement.

[Limnophile]

Other parts of my drip are pretty standard.

Sorry to hear about your health problem.

As to serrations and a flat surface on the front of a trigger guard, I understand that these features came about in response to law enforcement agency requests for pistol bids that specified a requirement for the ability for barricade fire. The flat, serrated surface is placed against a surface to steady the pistol for more accurate fire, especially at longer ranges.

If it is comfortable and gives you good results, place your offside forefinger there. I don't do it because recoil disengages the finger from the surface, so I end up having to reaquire that part of the grip, which is obviously inefficient for a self-defense weapon.

[usmc9688]

Eh i wouldnt worry about it too much. If it's working for you then it should be ok.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by usmc9688

...i wouldnt worry about it too much. If it's working for you then it should be ok.

Except it's not working for him. The OP wrote that he is shooting:

Originally Posted by GregInAtl

...low left...

So he has a problem.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

Except it's not working for him.

+1. This is what I was thinking.

IMO, the only thing that should be touching the gun is that which is actually part of a neutral grip. An index finger on the trigger guard doesn't help grip, so there's no reason to do it. That it almost certainly affects the gun is a good reason not to do it.

[Art Eatman]

As I said, he's doing that well-known deal: "Wristing." Squeezing all fingers in an oddball method. A firm grip with the index finger doing the only movement in pressing the trigger cures the problem. I've seen it bunches of times in beginning IPSC newbies.

[Grits]

I saw a video with Jerry Miculek and he stated that when he shoots free style that he will sometimes put his finger around the front of the trigger guard ,especially when he is shooting a smaller gun. He stated he sometimes puts some tape of something around it to help his finger grip. I'd say if you finding it more natural to put your finger around it go ahead, I think along with Miculek you will be in good company.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Grits

...I'd say if you finding it more natural to put your finger around it go ahead, I think along with Miculek you will be in good company.

That would be fine for the OP as long as he was shooting like Jerry Miculek. As long as he is not shooting that well, he needs to be looking for ways to improve his performance (unless he is satisfied shooting low-left).

Also, I’m skeptical about doing something a certain way because it’s “natural.” Sometimes one's instinctive reaction is not the correct response. In fact, it seems that one element of training and practice is to overcome instinctive reaction and to learn to automatically do instead what is most appropriate.

For example, when driving a car, one's instinctive reaction in the event of a skid is to apply the brakes. We know that is the wrong thing to do; and so, if one is lucky enough to get some training in high speed driving, one learns to stay off the brake, turn into the skid and, under some circumstances, even gently apply some throttle. I remember my first time driving a Formula Ford through Turn 8 at Laguna Seca -- a left-right downhill "S" turn. When hitting the apex of the first half of the turn, you can't see the track. My "instinct" said to back off the throttle. But of course, backing off the throttle under side loading while going downhill is a good way to lose the back end and spin.

Many of the more complex tasks we come to do without conscious thought aren't really instinctive or intuitive; they are, rather, reflexive. They are not natural, innate responses we are born with. Rather, they are habitual responses developed and conditioned by training and practice. It is, after all, natural to defecate in one's pants.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

Also, I’m skeptical about doing something a certain way because it’s “natural.”

I'm also skeptical about a shooting technique that's "correct" just because Jerry Miculek espoused it on a video.

Not taking anything away from his extraordinary skill, but his videos are pretty perfunctory and he does a number of things in a unique way. I've watched a lot of JM vids, and while they're inspirational, I've learned little actual revolvercraft from them.

[1-DAB]

read a piece on Pax's website a bit ago, 'you will hit your target when the sights are aligned on the target the moment the trigger is pulled'. everything else is secondary to making that happen. if you are hitting your target then everything else is secondary. if you are not hitting your target, then you may benefit from having someone watch you and discern what is causing you to miss. there are a myriad of things that you can do to miss the target, isolating the biggest factor takes some time and expertise.

[HALO51]

Dave Spaulding of Handgun Combatives has a nice video on correct grip. YouTube...Dave Spaulding How To Grip A Pistol. nice video 7:57 in length. Great instructor