+ - how much bullet weigh powder weigh for bench-rest?

[jcwit]

Jerry, get a bullet comparator to do the measuring or just not bother. Set you die and seat them all the same depth. My MatchKing 1400 bullets did vary more than that. Cartridge overall length means little, measuring off the ogive is what gives you the accurate measurments.

I believe it's bullet "ogive".

Correct!

[4runnerman]

Set you die and seat them all the same depth

Yes once you have found where you need to be this is exactly what you want to do. What im saying is you don't need a tool to do that. Seat your bullet long,load bullet close bolt. Take bullet out.WOW- you now have your max length,( no tool needed).Now start playing with that length by adjusting your seating die.( Again no tool needed). When you find that sweet spot. Lock the die and start loading. Real rocket science here.

[jcwit]

True, but then if one is going to post a measurement use an accurate means of measuring.

[4runnerman]

True, but then if one is going to post a measurement use an accurate means of measuring

jcwit--Does it really matter?. Is this length going to be the same in his rifle-NO. So it is a very unimportant point here we are debating here. He will find the length his rifle likes and that is what he will seat to.

Further more I have never gone to a web site that has listed anything other than COL--Have you?.

[Jerry45]

Originally Posted by jcwit

Jerry, get a bullet comparator to do the measuring or just not bother. Set you die and seat them all the same depth. My MatchKing 1400 bullets did vary more than that. Cartridge overall length means little, measuring off the ogive is what gives you the accurate measurments.

jcwit, I believe you missed one of my posts? Take a look at post # 41

[jcwit]

Further more I have never gone to a web site that has listed anything other than COL--Have you?.

Most certainly! This has been discussed a few times on The High Road.

jcwit--Does it really matter?.

Certainly it matters, being accurate always matter. If not to you, mayhap to others.

[jcwit]

jcwit, I believe you missed one of my posts? Take a look at post # 41

No I didn't miss it, just slipped my mind.

[Jerry45]

Oh oh, someone's getting old. I resemble that remark.

[jcwit]

Not only old but chemo therapy sorta does wonders with memory or the lack thereof.

[4runnerman]

jc--you sparked my intrests--Show me a web sight for reloading that lists other than COl.

[jcwit]

jc--you sparked my intrests--Show me a web sight for reloading that lists other than COl.

See my post #56.

[Bart B.]

Folks, there's lots of bad information going on in this thread. And nobody's commented on my remark that a rimless bottleneck case reference for where a given diameter on the bullet's ogive is the case shoulder.

That shoulder's slammed hard into the chamber shoulder by firing pin impact. Case shoulders are set back a thousandth or so from that slamming force on the primer. Go fire some primed cases after measuring their case headspace with a case headspace gauge and see how much they're set back when measured again. How much depends on shoulder area and angle, firing pin strength and impact depth on the primer as well as the lubricity between the case and chamber shoulders.

Case shoulders are not all the same distance from the case head; either before or after firing as well as before or after full length sizing. They vary a couple thousandths.

A given diameter on a bullet's ogive will not be at the same point relative to its base or tip. Jacket material ain't perfectly homogenous. A given pointing die in the last stage of forming the front half of hollow point bullets will not put a given diameter on the ogive exactly the same distance forward from its base nor back from its tip.

The only way to get consistant distance from the bullet's ogive to the rifling is with case necks loose enough so bullets are soft seated long enough to be set back a few thousandths by the leade when the round's chambered. Any other way results in inconsistant ogive point to case and chamber shoulder and therefore the rifling if the bullets seated short of rifling contact.

I don't think a few thousandths inch spread in where that bullet ogive point is relative to the rifling makes any significant difference anyway. Unless your groups are all under 1/10th MOA at 100 yards, you won't be able to tell the difference. I've seen Sierra Bullets shoot one 10-shot group after another in their 100-yard test range with Sierra 168's from .308 Win. cases with that much spread in ogive location and they're all under 2/10ths inch center to center.

[Jerry45]

Originally Posted by jcwit

Not only old but chemo therapy sorta does wonders with memory or the lack thereof.

Sorry to hear that. Best of luck.

Jerry

[4runnerman]

Bart- Your input on this. 2 of the people we shoot with do just as i posted. They seat long and let the bolt closing seat bullet more. This would cause bullet to be jammed into rifeling??? One of the 2 is one of the guys I can't seem to beat. He swears by it and has been doing it for over 30 years now.
I do it just to find where my rifle puts it and go down from there.
I have one case from each of my rifles that i have full length sized,seated a bullet and used the knitic(sp) hammer to extract the bullet. These are my test cases.
Now keep in mind- I use one bullet one load and one seating depth in all my rifles. I do not have 2 or 3 different loads for each rifle. I target shoot only

[jcwit]

A given diameter on a bullet's ogive will not be at the same point relative to its base or tip. Jacket material ain't perfectly homogenous. A given pointing die in the last stage of hollow point bullets will not put a given diameter on the ogive exactly the same distance forward from its base nor back from its tip.

Being as this is Christmas day and I am in the process of leaving and enjoying our family I do not have time to prove or disprove this by going to my reloading rood and checking. With that said I highly question this being true.

[jcwit]

Bart, have you or do you plan to shoot the NRA Metric Small Bore Matches in Bristol Indiana?

Just wondering?

[Bart B.]

A given pointing die in the last stage of forming the front half of hollow point bullets not putting a given diameter on the ogive exactly the same distance forward from its base nor back from its tip? Blasphemy!!!!

I've measured a few dozen of each of Sierra's 30 caliber HPMK's in 155, 168, 175, 180 (both styles), 190, 200 and 220 grain bullets. They all have a few thousandths spread in this. Even Sierra's told people asking them about it that all their pointing dies do this. And their best ones still shoot 1/4 MOA at 200 yards with a few thousandths spread of jump to the rifling.

Note also that as long as barrel steel keeps eroding away and the lead moves forward from all that how powder gasses burning away the metal, bullet jump for a given seating depth will get longer and longer and longer. I've seen it grow near 1/4 inch in a .264 Win. Mag., 3/16ths inch in a 30 caliber magnum and 1/8 inch in .308 Win.'s for the accurate life of the barrel.

How many readers have accurately measured throat/leade growth in a barrel?

[jcwit]

The only way to get consistant distance from the bullet's ogive to the rifling is with case necks loose enough so bullets are soft seated long enough to be set back a few thousandths by the leade when the round's chambered. Any other way results in inconsistant ogive point to case and chamber shoulder and therefore the rifling if the bullets seated short of rifling contact.

I don't think a few thousandths inch spread in where that bullet ogive point is relative to the rifling makes any significant difference anyway. Unless your groups are all under 1/10th MOA at 100 yards, you won't be able to tell the difference. I've seen Sierra Bullets shoot one 10-shot group after another in their 100-yard test range with Sierra 168's from .308 Win. cases with that much spread in ogive location and they're all under 2/10ths inch center to center.

After reading and rereading this I understand what you are trying to get across and agree with you regarding the case shoulder and the ogive of the bullet. I also agree with your thinking is makes little if any difference.

[Jerry45]

I just went in the shop and rechecked my numbers. The one's I posted were correct. 1.885 and 1.847 to ogive. Case length is 1.747'ish. I just grabbed an old empty from the AR and have no idea how close to minimum length it is. I didn't bother to measure OAL to tip of a loaded cartridge since that will vary with brand and type of bullet. The 1.847 and 1.885 is for Sierra MatchKing 55 gr.

Originally,using the Hornady tool I measured OAL chamber length to ogive of the Sierra MatchKing. I used five bullets... inserting removing measuring then reinserting and remeasuring five times each. 1.887 was the measurement I decided to uses as that was the reading that came up the most and was the average. One measured 1.888 once out of five times. I attributed that to either me not pushing hard enough or a piece of dirt. I read 1.886 in-between a couple of 1.887s. Average = 1.86699999999 so I went with 1.887.

All readings were take with a Midway digital micrometer.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Ok well now I see how you measured the rounds. When I measure I just measure the total length. I keep it at a simple no longer than 2.250 for 55 grain bullets to assure they will load into any rifle magazine. I use Hornady V-Max for the versatility, and price. I have used them on coyote out to 425 yards in .223 Rem. Last time I used them 4 coyotes that were mauling goats in broad daylight fell dead where they were hit at the distance of 425 yards from the back of my truck confirmed with a laser range finder. That is the only time I have shot them over 100 yards. Most times I shoot paper at 100 yards. It is the farthest that the range offers. The places that have longer rifle ranges are over an hour drive away so it is not practical for me.

Try a few loaded at the nominal length of 2.250 the results should tell you how they work. I tried the loading longer it did not net enough added accuracy for me to justify continuing the practice.

Try some factory Federal Gold Medal Match in .223 Rem see how your rifle shoots those. It could be worth a $20 something dollar box of ammo. I have seen a couple of people with AR rifles, and a guy with a Remington VTR bolt action that shot them. All the AR rifles shot 2 to 3 inch groups with standard cheapo bulk ammo. With the GMM they were shooting MOA. The VTR shot 4 half inch 5 shot groups off of a Lead Sled. Shots were spaced out 2 minutes apart. With a 10 minute cool off time between groups. I was impressed to say the least.

[jcwit]

Got home and measured 25 Sierra 22 cal MatchKing flat base bullets #1400. They did vary in length from base to ogive by .0005 using a bullet comparator.

[Jerry45]

m&p45acp10+1, I have the same problem with distance to ranges. There is one a little over an hour away (Palo Alto ) that offers 600 and supposedly coming soon 1000 yards. Only problem is you need a sponsor to be allowed to join. I don’t know anyone that belongs..

My loading and shooting is pretty much just for fun. The only thing I’m serious about is the 30/06 for deer (308 is bench gun too heavy) and maybe but probably never the .223 for varmints. I had the 308 built to find out if I could truly shoot to the level I want to. Knowing the rifle could shoot one hole the same size as the bullet all day long if locked down meant any error is mine. Now I know if other rifles don't shoot well it's either ammo or the rifle. If I'm having problems I pull out the 308 and fire a 5 shot group. If it punches on hole, so far it always has, I know it's not me just having an off day.

I’ve loaded; still have a couple of 250 round boxes of 55 gr. V-Max. Something I found strange until I reasoned it out was. I was working up loads and shooting the heck out of Dogtown 55 gr. SPFB. Best groups were about 1” but for the most part I was getting 1 ½” groups. Here’s what made me say “what?”. When I tried the 55 gr. V-Max with the same powder, Varget, through the whole range of charge they shot 2” to 1 ½ lower than the Dogtown. Then the MatchKing 53 gr. did the same. I realized it must be due to harmonics. The V-Max and MatchKing shoot pretty much to the same POI v POA. I guess I need a chronograph. Someday! V-Max was giving me MOA. MatchKing seems to do a little better. We’ll see when I’m finished working up the load.

jcwit, is that .0005 or .005, 5 ten-thousandths or 5 thousandths? If its ten-thousandths that’s next to nothing. You can’t get anything in firearms much closer than that. That’s pretty much the benchmark for excellence.

[jcwit]

jcwit, is that .0005 or .005, 5 ten-thousandths or 5 thousandths? If its ten-thousandths that’s next to nothing. You can’t get anything in firearms much closer than that. That’s pretty much the benchmark for excellence.

It is .0005 or in other words one half of one thousandth. Yup, thats next to nothing!

Years ago when I was making metal punching dies I only made a couple that required tolerances that close.