Thoughs the "One shot stop" thread caused...

[Groundhog]

First thought was, "geez, you guys sure are argumentative!" It'll be funny when someone argues about that, lol.

After a few more smart-alecky thoughts I had a couple of relevant ones I thought I might get some good comments on.

Since I am just Joe citizen and not a former SEAL, Special Forces, currently serving on large city commando/sniper squad, training for endless hours on every scenario that could ever POSSIBLY happen... (huff, puff, catch breath), my training options are, shall we say, somewhat limited. Other than the training I received in the military, the ONLY firearm+combat training I have had so far as a civilian has been the CHL class my wife and I just took. That went something like this:

Poke holes in paper targets for a while and then listen to how many ways you can go to jail now that you are allowed to carry a handgun.

At the urging of a friend who got me into "the gun culture" I started shooting IDPA matches and was hooked from there. The first few things I thought when going through the stages for the first time were:

1. I am so nervous I'm shaking.
2. I am super concerned about not committing a safety violation.
3. I can't see this as being a realistic situation.
4. If this were real, I'd probably be killed.

Now, I have learned quite a bit since I started shooting seriously a mere 5 months ago (though I have a lifetime to go). The best thing I have learned is how to hit my target repeatedly and consistently. And I should add to that how much fun it is. But! The reason I got into shooting pistol, and coerced my wife into joining me, was in order to get practice with the gun I intend to carry for personal protection (and same idea for the wife). We had a close relative shot by a co-worker a couple of years ago so we've been motivated. I was hoping that shooting IDPA would provide affordable practice to train my muscle memory and such with scenarios that were closer to real than standing on a static line at the range and trying to hit center. And you know what? It does, to a degree.

Now, given that I am Joe civilian and have no (known) access to any kind of realistic training without some travel and expense, the odds that I would get more than one or two sessions in are slim. Over and over you hear, "Train how you'd fight!" but I have no idea what the best way to do that would be given that I'm not a former commando or 50 year LEO veteran. So I suppose it leads me to the following questions.

1. How should Joe civilian train?
2. How often should Joe civilian train?

I want to be a responsible gun owner, licensed carrier, and citizen. I don't want to fight anyone. I don't EVER want to get into a gun fight. But I do want to be prepared for as close to "the worst" as I can deal with so I can protect myself and my family should it happen.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Depends where you are located and your finances.

If one can afford it - I suggest that:

1. A course that has a good discussion of basic firearms use
2. A course that has a good discussion of the legalities, moral questions and mind set.
3. A course that has some experience with tactics for the good old civilian and some FOF in a well supervised situation.

All this probably will cost between $1000 to $1500 for the average cost.

There's really no way to avoid the instruction and costs. One can read and buy tapes but the experience is good for the good old civilian - which I am - same situation as yours at the start.

Reading and meeting quality instructors will make you realize the silliness of some internet posters like Flaming SteelWarrior Commando, who will kill you with a q-tip.

[David Armstrong]

As Glenn said, nothing substitutes for good training. If you are lucky you can get that training without a big investment of resources, but it is rare. So, "How should you train?" As realistically as possible. Most training should not be how to shoot someone, it should be how to avoid getting into situations where you need to worry about shooting someone. And that is the answer to "How often should you train?" You should train all the time. Practice awareness. Learn to look at people and see them, not look through them. Learn to recognize potential threats and avoid them. Contrary to what same might say, getting shot does tend to slow you down, no matter how much of a rage you are in or how much SuperNinjaRambo spirit is in you. Practice that mental planning when you can. Practice clearing your house one day, just to find out how hard it is and how easily you can get taken out. When you shoot IDPA, don't go for the points, shoot the match as if "Wow, this is really happening to me" (except don't just leave, which is frequently the best option! Realistically assess your environment and life style to predict dangers. Do a good risk analysis.

[Double Naught Spy]

Once you get some good training, you need to practice what you have learned. If you watch enough videos of police, bad guys, and civilians in gun fights, you will see that there is often a marked difference in those who actually shoot while following the basics, maintaining basic proper shooting techniques, especially if shooting more than just a couple of feet. There are some videos of folks making great shots without being ninjas and they aren't doing anything particularly special except being good gun handlers and shooters. The bottom line is that you are more likely to be successful in your shooting if you maintain the basics.

Similarly, you are more likely to keep from getting shot if you follow the second set of basics in a shooting conflict such as not remaining stationary out in the open, moving to cover, using cover.

It isn't rocket science, but for some, the implementation of the basics might as well be rocket science. Usually, they are the ones who have not had training, not kept proficient, and/or were caught unaware.

Of course, as DA mentioned, a lot of aware and smart folks do the best defensive things possible and manage to avoid conflicts and avoid being unaware. The best defense is to not be there (where the fight is).

[chrisandclauida2]

simple and easy ways to train .

first practice drawing from concealment and shoot center mass. be sure to practice exactly how you carry otherwise its useless.

practice bringing that weapon up putting the front sight on target and pull the trigger.

then add lots of good marksmanship training to bring that groups size down.

do lots of dry fireing to develop excellent trigger control

and most importantly work thru every scenario you can think of in your mind. go thru what you see on the news and hear. go over and over on how you would react and respond as the situation develops.

all these things will prepare you. ofcourse you have to know the laws of the area in which you live.

i always say dont worry about what bullet has the most so called one shot stops. it wont matter as each confrontation is new not a statistic. dont practice any double tap or double tap head shot drills. the reason is those drills teach yopu to stop shooting after the sequence and assess the situation. the reason is [and the term is] you will fight how you train. it is simple muscle and mental memory. you never want to teach your self to stop shooting till the threat is gone. stopping after two rounds to see if they guy gave up can get you killed.

all this is cheap[the price of ammo and range time] and will drill into your mind and body how you want to respond so you have some control over what happens

you dont need hundreds of thousands of dollars of training to train. these classes are lots of drills after a little instruction. drills are the key.

[Smokin Joe]

1. How should Joe civilian train?
2. How often should Joe civilian train?

well, there are many schools of thought obviously, from those who believe in formal training such as classes and such,

to those who believe "Training to fight, is training how NOT to fight" and other philosphical methods of zen and smoking the peace pipe.

Then you got your books and videos and yada yada..

I would say there is no magic in it. you dont have to train your tail off. your part is to have the weapon loaded and nearby.

Its a gun for goodness sake, it dont take alot of effort to use. you point it at your enemy, and you pump him full of lead.

a gun is the lazy man's way of fighting. you arent sword fighting where you need tons of skill or etc...

if you can use that mouse , place the pointer over the red X, and right click, you can use a gun.

So I say.

1. How should Joe civilian train?

Go shoot at the range, enjoy yourself...

2. How often should Joe civilian train?

whenever you feel like it.

dont worry about fast draw from consealment, or fast draw and shoot paper target, or anything fancy...

if you have a threat, calmly take out your gun and shoot him fulla lead. dont worry, your enemy isnt fast enough to react to the one and a half seconds it takes you to pull out the gun and aim, and the 2 seconds it takes to empty your mag into the no good scum.

THEN you can take out the Q tips and really go to work on the dirt bag.

[rb4browns]

Most training should not be how to shoot someone, it should be how to avoid getting into situations where you need to worry about shooting someone. And that is the answer to "How often should you train?" You should train all the time. Practice awareness. Learn to look at people and see them, not look through them. Learn to recognize potential threats and avoid them

Amen. It amazes me (and scare the bejeezes out of me at the same time) how many people are fixated on the gun fight that they *know* they are going to get in to next week. The point is to never get in to one unless you absolutely are in a situation that you do not have control over and never had control over.

That means avoiding trouble as much as humanly possible. I never go to 7-11 type stores. I only gas my car during the day. I couldn't tell you the last time I was in a bar. I am always aware of who is around me on the street and when I am driving. I'm not paranoid or walking scared, but my head is never in the clouds when I am on the street.

SO yeah, I am at the range pretty regularly, and as one who is pretty new to shooting I am doing a great deal of work on increasing my skills with my guns. But that does not replace the neeed to avoid trouble when you can. Reading this forum can give one the impression that there are thousands of folks in wild-west shootouts everyday. My belief is that most of the actual violent encounters out there happen to those who have put themselves in a situation where they can be vicitimized, so goal #1 is not to be ready to draw down and start shooting at the drop of a hat, but rather think through your actions and goals and act accordingly so you avoid danger to every extent possible.

[SeaMariner]

Find a quiet spot in the woods...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are zombies, cannibals and witches in quiet parts of the woods. I would avoid them.

[Groundhog]

LOL, Glenn.

Greg Miller

[brando]

There you go, look around see whoes about, avoid trouble spots quick stop stores :barf:
I didnt recognise trouble a few months ago stoped for fuel go in to pay ,drunk guy in store. don't know what his problem was other than drunk. he began to bluster about some preceved insult. I kept my distance he made his purchase threw an insult and left.
no fight no gun play he did supprise me as it was unexpected I should thank him for rising my awareness.

[18DAI]

The next IDPA match you shoot, ask around about instuctors. They will know who gives instruction, and will probably not hesitate to tell you whether it's worthwhile. Alot of ex military small arms instructors, and a few LEO firearms instructors shoot matches around here. The usual fee is $25/HR for some good instruction. After you get a few lessons, practice regularly. Good luck. Regards 18DAI.

[scsov509]

dont practice any double tap or double tap head shot drills. the reason is those drills teach yopu to stop shooting after the sequence and assess the situation. the reason is [and the term is] you will fight how you train. it is simple muscle and mental memory. you never want to teach your self to stop shooting till the threat is gone. stopping after two rounds to see if they guy gave up can get you killed.

You are correct in the fact that these drills do teach you to stop and assess the situation, and that's why everyone should practice them. You say that you shouldn't stop shooting until a threat is gone, but how will you know when that threat is in fact gone if you do not train yourself to stop and assess the threat itself before taking further action?

I don't train just to develop practical skills, but also to develop critical thinking. That's the thing that ultimately gives me a leg up in a defensive situation is that I've already spent time teaching my brain not to shut down and panic. So the answer as to how to train is simply to say train in any and every way that will equip you to better respond to crisis . That's why shoot and assess drills are worth practicing, because in a defensive situation you will be held accountable for how you assessed and responded to the threat. If you ever use lethal force then a lawyer is going to ask you, "What were you thinking?" And in that moment you sure want to be able to proove that you were thinking and assessing and not just reacting.

[easyG]

Smokin Joe, Excellent post!

I'll add this...

Go to the range at least once a month.
This might not sound like much range time, but it's more than most Soldiers, Marines, LEOs, and criminals get!

Practice one-hand-shooting and off-hand-shooting.

Practice head-shots at close range.

No matter what carry condition you keep your weapon in, BE CONSISTANT!!!

[TheWanderer]

I stick with 9mm because I have little money and it's the cheapest for me to be able to afford to practice regularly.

[FM12]

Buy, read and reread Massad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme".

[Groundhog]

I appreciate all the excellent replies. So far I have managed to shoot IDPA at least once a month and if nothing else, have had some great familiarization with my firearm of choice. I suppose my main area of concern with shooting IDPA a lot is that almost all of those guys just put 2 on the target and move on to the next. That and there are precious few reactive targets. The 2 shot thing is perfectly understandable for gaming but I worry that I'll get in the habit of doing that all the time. I have attempted to mix this up a little by firing more than 2 rounds whenever the round count is not so critical just so I won't get stuck on the 2 shot thing.

This brings to mind another question though. I saw a video the other day where a LEO shot a guy once in the gut and then proceeded to continue to argue and struggle with the guy before finally taking him down and cuffing him. He evidently was not too badly hurt. The BG's actions did justify the shoot, and while I applaud the LEO for all his restraint, I don't think I would have stopped firing until the BG was down and I could either see empty hands or no movement.

Isn't that pretty much when the threat is over? Aside from BG outright surrendering of course.

I don't know if that LEO was just so totally sure of his situation that he knew he didn't have to keep firing or if he was taking an excessive risk. The video in question is a LEO checking on a small P/U truck at a rest stop I believe. The BG was asked to open all the stuff in the back of the truck and he kept not opening one box (containing drugs). He attacks the LEO shortly after this and I think he gets shot off camera. Then you see them continue to struggle some and argue, finally the cop trips him and cuffs him. That's all I remember of the video if it helps any.

[Mike40-11]

Going along with everyone else.... Shoot as much as you can. Even a little bit of practice halps immensely.

I started shooting at a home-grown IDPA we do at our club last year. Got out probably a dozen time in the summer, 50-100 rounds at a whack. I am amazed at the improvement in my speed and accuracy from that relatively short experience.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've seen that video, Greg, a couple of times - IMHO - the officer did not handle the situation correctly at all. He did not end the fight with his gun - nor did he try to gain distance from his assailant.

Having not been there, my hindsight is worth spit - but it looked like a fumble to me.