Why do people "downgrade" for the survival rifle?

EdInk · April 23, 2012, 06:18 PM

Like the title says, why do people downgrade when picking their survival rifle?

You see it all the time. A guy will own a Colt AR-15 with an Aimpoint, Arsenal SGL-21 with folding stock, Springfield M1A and a couple of nice hunting rifles that are all reliable and they shoot frequently. However, they own a WASR-10 or something that will be their gun of choice for when life is actually on the line.

Is there a need to keep your nice rifle looking pretty even when it means using it for it's intended purpose? (Gotta keep your safe queen pretty even during the apocalypse... or what?)

It's like leaving your Corvette in the garage and taking your Camry to an event when you may have to drag race for your life. I don't get it.

Technosavant · April 23, 2012, 06:20 PM

Beats me.

I'd think that one GOOD rifle is cheaper than several so-so ones, but that's just me. But then again, I don't know how many guys do this- if somebody has spent the cash for a good quality AR, top shelf optic, etc., I don't often see those guys then buying a garden variety AK for use if they find themselves in a survival situation. That's kinda the point of buying quality- if you actually do find yourself having to go to hell and back you have the weapon capable of doing just that.

EdInk · April 23, 2012, 06:36 PM

That's what I always thought too. I own several pretty nice rifles. My doomsday gun will be my Arsenal AK, simply because it's lightweight and I prefer the round over the 5.56 NATO. I wouldn't have a problem using one of my other rifles though.

I just want to know the logic behind the original scenario in question.

I want to know why people would leave their good rifles behind and grab a Century AK with their bug out bag.

PawPaw · April 23, 2012, 07:04 PM

I've always wondered that myself. My survival rifle would be a common .22 LR, probably in a semi-auto. I've got several in the locker and they run all the time, ammo is cheap and plentiful, not to mention light-weight.

A good .22LR will do anything I want a survival rifle to do, including making boogie-men go look for an emergency room. Accurate, light weight, easy to shoot, ammo is everywhere. Lots of guys over-think this whole thing.

zippy13 · April 23, 2012, 07:07 PM

Over at the shotgun forum there's a plethora of postings requesting suggestions about the cheapest HD shotgun available. Perhaps they figure, since it may never be used, why spend the money? But, these are typically HD blasters, not bug out rifles.

rickyrick · April 23, 2012, 08:32 PM

Some will never use the gun, I think the above poster nailed it.

Many preppers have secondary caches of survival gear, nobody wants to bury their 3000$ AR in the woods.

A cheapo AK or single shot 22 is worth three ARs in the gun safe that you can no longer get to.

SIGSHR · April 23, 2012, 08:47 PM

Probably the same thinking of those who have a wide selection of top quality, even customized, firearms but will will rely on a plain vanilla straight from the factory handgun for bedside or CCW use. When the Balloon Goes Up you want Old Reliable, that doesn't need a lot of babying and constant maintenance and lubrication and tinkering with, is not particular about is ammunition and can take rough handling and being knocked about.

jrothWA · April 23, 2012, 09:12 PM

Marlin 336, ammo is extremely common!

Te Anau · April 23, 2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

You see it all the time. A guy will own a Colt AR-15 with an Aimpoint, Arsenal SGL-21 with folding stock, Springfield M1A and a couple of nice hunting rifles that are all reliable and they shoot frequently. However, they own a WASR-10 or something that will be their gun of choice for when life is actually on the line.

Easy,they know the WASR AK will function when the chips are down.Of course the SGL-21 would as well,but who wants to scratch that?

gak · April 23, 2012, 10:35 PM

SIGSHR said
" Probably the same thinking of those who have a wide selection of top quality, even customized, firearms but will will rely on a plain vanilla straight from the factory handgun for bedside or CCW use. When the Balloon Goes Up you want Old Reliable, that doesn't need a lot of babying and constant maintenance and lubrication and tinkering with, is not particular about is ammunition and can take rough handling and being knocked about."

+1 good response. For a "survival" rifle, my finely tuned tackdriversl give way to the utterly reliable. I'm no SK/AK fan (or owner) but would think of those before an AR or similar at "bug out time." My choice instead, a .30-30, but neither has my GI M1 Carbine *ever* let me down (and is top choice among rifles for HD). I'd still probably pick the .30-30 (or my ol' Win 69A .22) for their lack of any gas/piston and related small parts--though they've never been an issue--if cast out into the wilderness. Ditto, no ultra tuned, custom tight-tolerance 1911. For this discussion, give me a standard Springfield or even RIA or, better yet, an old Model 10/65/66 or Blackhawk/Vaquero/Single Six when PRCTS (push really comes to shove

).

EdInk · April 23, 2012, 11:56 PM

My point is who the heck cares about scratching something when your life depends on it? It's stupid. What imaginary collectors market do they believe will exist in a world that's gone belly-up?

Let's leave the 2012 Chevy Duramax Diesel Z71 extended and take the 2002 V6 Gasburner Regular Cab work truck. We may need to go off-road. Better not scratch the newer one that's made for that exact purpose, even though it is MORE RELIABLE, MORE COMFORTABLE ANDADE SPECIFICALLY FOR SAID PURPOSE.

Leave the Glock 19 and grab the HiPoint 9mm is a good example of this scenario but with pistols. Neither are really special. But don't use your trusted mid-level Glock. Grab a bargain basement Hi-Point. :roll eyes:

Dashunde · April 24, 2012, 12:03 AM

At a glance, those rifles that run pistol ammo might be a good call.
Something like the Kel-Tec 2000 that runs your pistol magazines, take your pick.
Marlin carbines like the ones in this thread seem perfect for the task.

I've never read up on how good the performance is compared to a similar dedicated rifle round.... example, 9mm vs 223, is it worth carrying a second type of ammo?

Sarge · April 24, 2012, 12:53 AM

I'm never far from a 94 Winchester with six in the tube and 12 more in a nylon glove pouch on the sling. If I ever need a rifle for other-than-recreational purposes, long odds are that'll be the one that gets used. I load for it, shoot it often and know where it prints between rock-throwing distance and 300 yards. Heck I've even got a fairly quiet 900 fps cast load worked out that shoots to the sights out to 60 paces or so.

Salmoneye · April 24, 2012, 05:46 AM

Quote:

I want to know why people would leave their good rifles behind and grab a Century AK with their bug out bag.

Maybe this is telling you which gun people consider the 'good rifle' deep down in their subconscious...

Quote:

A good .22LR will do anything I want a survival rifle to do, including making boogie-men go look for an emergency room. Accurate, light weight, easy to shoot, ammo is everywhere. Lots of guys over-think this whole thing.

Aint THAT the truth...

L_Killkenny · April 24, 2012, 08:04 AM

IMO most "survival" guns are acquired to fill a niche or void in a collection rather than an actual need. Heck, that syndrome is not limited to survival guns but includes most gun purchases. When people think survival guns they don't think about the best, nicest guns available but instead old reliable like SIGSHR said. No one thinks of a pimped out 1911 as a survival gun instead they think of a good ol' GI clone. It's a mindset. Acquiring a survival rifle is a want not a need for most guns owners in the U.S. already own a gun that will suffice a survival role. The Op asked, if you already own x, why buy y? The answer: Because I want to. In reality that is the answer to most gun purchases.

LK

EdInk · April 24, 2012, 08:41 AM

The "I'll never use it" theory seems to be the most logical basis to my question.

I hate to think people are so obsessed with keeping a mass-produced non-collectible firearm prestine that they would puposefully choose an inferior quality gun just to prevent scratching it. (e.g. They own an Arsenal SGL-21 but goes with a Century AK for survival.)

Strafer Gott · April 24, 2012, 08:58 AM

Don't confuse bugout with burying guns. Of course I'll be wearing a party dress to the EOTWAWKI dance. A .22 is a foraging weapon, not much more.
I think you'll need to throw at least a brick of .22 ammo, to dissuade anybody that's even half as--d determined. Don't confuse foraging with defense.
Just saying. I, like most vets, was trained on the AR like M-16/m4.
It would be an unnatural act for me to grab something besides the little colt.

dahermit · April 24, 2012, 09:00 AM

"Survival Rifle"; A .22 Long Rifle for shooting small game for the pot.
"Combat Rifle"; A Colt AR-15.

Te Anau · April 24, 2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

MORE RELIABLE, MORE COMFORTABLE ANDADE SPECIFICALLY FOR SAID PURPOSE.

If its a SHTF situation,I'll take a WASR over an AR anyday.The only advantage the AR would have (and it could be a big one) would be ammo availability.

Lloyd Smale · April 24, 2012, 02:59 PM

My buddy does the same. He has more rifles then even i do and a bunch of ars. He bought 6 cheap military surplus bolt guns at dunams for about a 100 bucks a piece. Figures he could stash them in differnt places with ammo and if someone found one or took one away from him he wouldnt be out much.

Strafer Gott · April 24, 2012, 03:27 PM

I would definitely choose a loaded .22 over an empty AK.
By the way, anything you can shoot with a .22, you can shoot with an AR.
Just practice "barkin'" them squirrels.

markj · April 24, 2012, 04:43 PM

So where do you bug out too? Just thinking if the world is in turmoil, where ya gonna run too?

SIGSHR · April 24, 2012, 05:00 PM

Part of the problem is that "survival" rifle-like "assault" rifle-is one of those notions that we all agree with but have a hard time really defining. What do we want to survive? Massive natural disaster? Socio-political breakdown? Rioting in the streets? Foreign invasion? Lost in the wilderness? For how long?
A 22-such as the AR-7-might fill the stewpot with frogs, squirrels and rabbits, but eating too much bunny can be hazardous to your health and I wonder if the caloric return on bullet invested is really worth it. An AR-15 or AK or SKS might do better at discouraging bad buys but is marginal as a deer gun. Also I have found many "survival" rifles such as the AR-7 and the Air Force survival rifle a little on the crude side.

Double Naught Spy · April 24, 2012, 05:14 PM

People also do this with car/truck guns and BUGs. What I really find ironic about most people's BUGs is that they are a smaller platform that is more about being able to be concealed rather than shooting ergonomics and are of a caliber that the person usually would not consider for their primary defensive gun. They way I see it, if you need your survival gun, car/truck gun, or survival rifle, then you are in deep doodoo already and you don'w want something whose best properties are not associated with being good for stopping threats.

HDTVSELLER · April 24, 2012, 07:21 PM

I have ars, bolts ,semi autos of all kinds and i pick my romanian underfolder ak for bug out bc it fits in my pack folded and i trust my life with it. I have shot it enough to bet money on its function. I think that round will take care of food or threat of any kind i may encounter. but that is me i personaly would leave my m1a in the house because it cant fold and get into smaller spaces.

April 23, 2012, 06:18 PM	#1
EdInk Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Posts: 3,968	Why do people "downgrade" for the survival rifle? Like the title says, why do people downgrade when picking their survival rifle? You see it all the time. A guy will own a Colt AR-15 with an Aimpoint, Arsenal SGL-21 with folding stock, Springfield M1A and a couple of nice hunting rifles that are all reliable and they shoot frequently. However, they own a WASR-10 or something that will be their gun of choice for when life is actually on the line. Is there a need to keep your nice rifle looking pretty even when it means using it for it's intended purpose? (Gotta keep your safe queen pretty even during the apocalypse... or what?) It's like leaving your Corvette in the garage and taking your Camry to an event when you may have to drag race for your life. I don't get it. __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannis

April 23, 2012, 06:36 PM	#3
EdInk Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Posts: 3,968	That's what I always thought too. I own several pretty nice rifles. My doomsday gun will be my Arsenal AK, simply because it's lightweight and I prefer the round over the 5.56 NATO. I wouldn't have a problem using one of my other rifles though. I just want to know the logic behind the original scenario in question. I want to know why people would leave their good rifles behind and grab a Century AK with their bug out bag. __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannis

April 23, 2012, 07:04 PM	#4
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	I've always wondered that myself. My survival rifle would be a common .22 LR, probably in a semi-auto. I've got several in the locker and they run all the time, ammo is cheap and plentiful, not to mention light-weight. A good .22LR will do anything I want a survival rifle to do, including making boogie-men go look for an emergency room. Accurate, light weight, easy to shoot, ammo is everywhere. Lots of guys over-think this whole thing. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

April 23, 2012, 08:32 PM	#6
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Some will never use the gun, I think the above poster nailed it. Many preppers have secondary caches of survival gear, nobody wants to bury their 3000$ AR in the woods. A cheapo AK or single shot 22 is worth three ARs in the gun safe that you can no longer get to. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

April 23, 2012, 09:12 PM	#8
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Think since reading this, that my best choice will be.. Marlin 336, ammo is extremely common!

April 23, 2012, 06:20 PM	#2
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	Beats me. I'd think that one GOOD rifle is cheaper than several so-so ones, but that's just me. But then again, I don't know how many guys do this- if somebody has spent the cash for a good quality AR, top shelf optic, etc., I don't often see those guys then buying a garden variety AK for use if they find themselves in a survival situation. That's kinda the point of buying quality- if you actually do find yourself having to go to hell and back you have the weapon capable of doing just that.

April 23, 2012, 07:07 PM	#5
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Over at the shotgun forum there's a plethora of postings requesting suggestions about the cheapest HD shotgun available. Perhaps they figure, since it may never be used, why spend the money? But, these are typically HD blasters, not bug out rifles.

April 23, 2012, 08:47 PM	#7
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Probably the same thinking of those who have a wide selection of top quality, even customized, firearms but will will rely on a plain vanilla straight from the factory handgun for bedside or CCW use. When the Balloon Goes Up you want Old Reliable, that doesn't need a lot of babying and constant maintenance and lubrication and tinkering with, is not particular about is ammunition and can take rough handling and being knocked about.

April 23, 2012, 10:35 PM	#10
gak Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2005 Location: Aridzona Posts: 2,767	SIGSHR said " Probably the same thinking of those who have a wide selection of top quality, even customized, firearms but will will rely on a plain vanilla straight from the factory handgun for bedside or CCW use. When the Balloon Goes Up you want Old Reliable, that doesn't need a lot of babying and constant maintenance and lubrication and tinkering with, is not particular about is ammunition and can take rough handling and being knocked about." +1 good response. For a "survival" rifle, my finely tuned tackdriversl give way to the utterly reliable. I'm no SK/AK fan (or owner) but would think of those before an AR or similar at "bug out time." My choice instead, a .30-30, but neither has my GI M1 Carbine ever let me down (and is top choice among rifles for HD). I'd still probably pick the .30-30 (or my ol' Win 69A .22) for their lack of any gas/piston and related small parts--though they've never been an issue--if cast out into the wilderness. Ditto, no ultra tuned, custom tight-tolerance 1911. For this discussion, give me a standard Springfield or even RIA or, better yet, an old Model 10/65/66 or Blackhawk/Vaquero/Single Six when PRCTS (push really comes to shove ).

April 23, 2012, 11:56 PM	#11
EdInk Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Posts: 3,968	My point is who the heck cares about scratching something when your life depends on it? It's stupid. What imaginary collectors market do they believe will exist in a world that's gone belly-up? Let's leave the 2012 Chevy Duramax Diesel Z71 extended and take the 2002 V6 Gasburner Regular Cab work truck. We may need to go off-road. Better not scratch the newer one that's made for that exact purpose, even though it is MORE RELIABLE, MORE COMFORTABLE ANDADE SPECIFICALLY FOR SAID PURPOSE. Leave the Glock 19 and grab the HiPoint 9mm is a good example of this scenario but with pistols. Neither are really special. But don't use your trusted mid-level Glock. Grab a bargain basement Hi-Point. :roll eyes: __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannis

April 24, 2012, 12:03 AM	#12
Dashunde Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 2,018	At a glance, those rifles that run pistol ammo might be a good call. Something like the Kel-Tec 2000 that runs your pistol magazines, take your pick. Marlin carbines like the ones in this thread seem perfect for the task. I've never read up on how good the performance is compared to a similar dedicated rifle round.... example, 9mm vs 223, is it worth carrying a second type of ammo?

April 24, 2012, 12:53 AM	#13
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I'm never far from a 94 Winchester with six in the tube and 12 more in a nylon glove pouch on the sling. If I ever need a rifle for other-than-recreational purposes, long odds are that'll be the one that gets used. I load for it, shoot it often and know where it prints between rock-throwing distance and 300 yards. Heck I've even got a fairly quiet 900 fps cast load worked out that shoots to the sights out to 60 paces or so. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

April 24, 2012, 08:04 AM	#15
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,676	IMO most "survival" guns are acquired to fill a niche or void in a collection rather than an actual need. Heck, that syndrome is not limited to survival guns but includes most gun purchases. When people think survival guns they don't think about the best, nicest guns available but instead old reliable like SIGSHR said. No one thinks of a pimped out 1911 as a survival gun instead they think of a good ol' GI clone. It's a mindset. Acquiring a survival rifle is a want not a need for most guns owners in the U.S. already own a gun that will suffice a survival role. The Op asked, if you already own x, why buy y? The answer: Because I want to. In reality that is the answer to most gun purchases. LK

April 24, 2012, 08:41 AM	#16
EdInk Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Posts: 3,968	The "I'll never use it" theory seems to be the most logical basis to my question. I hate to think people are so obsessed with keeping a mass-produced non-collectible firearm prestine that they would puposefully choose an inferior quality gun just to prevent scratching it. (e.g. They own an Arsenal SGL-21 but goes with a Century AK for survival.) __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannis

April 24, 2012, 08:58 AM	#17
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	Don't confuse bugout with burying guns. Of course I'll be wearing a party dress to the EOTWAWKI dance. A .22 is a foraging weapon, not much more. I think you'll need to throw at least a brick of .22 ammo, to dissuade anybody that's even half as--d determined. Don't confuse foraging with defense. Just saying. I, like most vets, was trained on the AR like M-16/m4. It would be an unnatural act for me to grab something besides the little colt.

April 24, 2012, 09:00 AM	#18
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	"Survival Rifle"; A .22 Long Rifle for shooting small game for the pot. "Combat Rifle"; A Colt AR-15.

April 24, 2012, 02:59 PM	#20
Lloyd Smale Junior member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Posts: 822	My buddy does the same. He has more rifles then even i do and a bunch of ars. He bought 6 cheap military surplus bolt guns at dunams for about a 100 bucks a piece. Figures he could stash them in differnt places with ammo and if someone found one or took one away from him he wouldnt be out much.

April 24, 2012, 03:27 PM	#21
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	Druthers I would definitely choose a loaded .22 over an empty AK. By the way, anything you can shoot with a .22, you can shoot with an AR. Just practice "barkin'" them squirrels.

April 24, 2012, 04:43 PM	#22
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	So where do you bug out too? Just thinking if the world is in turmoil, where ya gonna run too?

April 24, 2012, 05:00 PM	#23
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Part of the problem is that "survival" rifle-like "assault" rifle-is one of those notions that we all agree with but have a hard time really defining. What do we want to survive? Massive natural disaster? Socio-political breakdown? Rioting in the streets? Foreign invasion? Lost in the wilderness? For how long? A 22-such as the AR-7-might fill the stewpot with frogs, squirrels and rabbits, but eating too much bunny can be hazardous to your health and I wonder if the caloric return on bullet invested is really worth it. An AR-15 or AK or SKS might do better at discouraging bad buys but is marginal as a deer gun. Also I have found many "survival" rifles such as the AR-7 and the Air Force survival rifle a little on the crude side.

April 24, 2012, 05:14 PM	#24
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	People also do this with car/truck guns and BUGs. What I really find ironic about most people's BUGs is that they are a smaller platform that is more about being able to be concealed rather than shooting ergonomics and are of a caliber that the person usually would not consider for their primary defensive gun. They way I see it, if you need your survival gun, car/truck gun, or survival rifle, then you are in deep doodoo already and you don'w want something whose best properties are not associated with being good for stopping threats. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

April 24, 2012, 07:21 PM	#25
HDTVSELLER Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 248	I have ars, bolts ,semi autos of all kinds and i pick my romanian underfolder ak for bug out bc it fits in my pack folded and i trust my life with it. I have shot it enough to bet money on its function. I think that round will take care of food or threat of any kind i may encounter. but that is me i personaly would leave my m1a in the house because it cant fold and get into smaller spaces. __________________ What would the world be like without guns!!!!