Video: What he did wrong and would it be justified?

[Kiel_Everett]

Xavier, here is the story copied and pasted from the link marlboroman provided. Its not much info, but it provides a little bit more than the video does. If the officer knew who the man was (a wanted felon) shouldn't he have conducted a felony-type stop? I am not sure how that works, maybe a LEO could chime in? I ask/state this because as Xavier mentioned, the officer did make an effort for the passenger only. Oh sorry, got ahead of myself, heres the story:


"A Texas police officer sustained minor injuries after scuffling with a suspect in an incident that was captured by the officer's dashboard camera.

Officer Russell May's in-car camera was rolling when he responded to a disturbance call. The videotape shows him approaching the passenger side of a car and asking the people inside to get out. That's when a man jumps out and attacks the officer.

The beating goes on for several minutes before a Good Samaritan steps in to help and calm the suspect. Witnesses also called 911 for help.

May suffered minor injuries but returned to service the same day. The suspect, Joshua Jones, is a three-time felon wanted in Colorado. He remains jailed and faces additional charges of assault on a peace officer."

[springmom]

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...er+Mark+Coates

This was a big topic of conversation quite some time back on the forum.

Springmom

[XavierBreath]

Springmom,
Take a look at the video marlboroman84 presented.
It is not the Coates video. It has not been discussed. It occured on 04/17/2006.

[riverrat66]

his mistake was that he was to close to the suspect, and in fact opened the door for the suspect.

XavierBreath is right, it's pretty hard to react when someone is all over you and you're trying to protect yourself AND your firearm. In my opinion the best thing this officer could have done was put some distance between himself and his assailant.

Maybe Officer May was just using the ole' "rope-a-dope" hoping Jones would punch himself out and then he could arrest him or better yet shoot the SOB.

Anyway it was good to see someone come to the aid of the officer.

Erick,
Sorry for drifting "off topic" in my last post. I was merely trying to point out the difference in a police officer "under-reacting" and one "overreacting". Must be I hit a nerve.

springmom,
That link you just provided, while very sad indeed was not that of the Trooper Coates shooting which by the way the poster was not asking everyone's opinion of.

With all these lunatics running around these days, law enforcement officers really have their hands full. We need to build more prisons and shorten the wait on death row.

[chrisandclauida2]

there are two schools of thought in getting close to a person.\

first lets assume that he didn't expect the explosion that occurred.

you can either say out of arms reach or get in close so when punches are thrown they dont have the power a full cycle and hit would normally have.

i have been blindside on more than one time. i thank god i didn't get knocked out. both times i didn't think i was hit very hard but witnesses and a video showed different. i was hit in the temple one time by a guy who had a huge skull ring on. this one was on video. i dont know how i didn't go down as his intentions were to knock me out cold . i thank god i dont have a glass jaw. i got in close so his follow up punches really didn't hurt as he couldn't use his body or full range of motion. this time i didn't have my weapon on me so i didn't worry about a snatch. he was kind enough to provide me with a 3 foot long braided ponytail. this gave me all the leverage i needed to take him down quickly. there is no doubt if we stood toe to toe he would win a fight. he was just stronger and faster than i was. that is they way it usually is. most of us dont want to admit someone can kick our ass as we need to have that edge to do the jobs we do.

this all said fighting a street fight is completely different than taking down a violent person. their aggression actually helps you in their being brought under control. the tactics are different as you are usually the aggressor not the other person.

the second time i was searching and found dope and wham another blindsided hit.. he wanted to just flush the crap and of course i didn't want him to. i severely handed him his ass. this time i was the stronger and faster.

what you have to remember in situations like this are a few important things.

these violent attacks are very seldom. someone may hit you but they are 99% of the time just trying to get away. unfortunately when you run across someone like this the officer or civilian usually dies. while they are prepared for certon things such violent overwhelming attacks are not expected and even if they are expected they are so violent you never get the chance to transition from defense to offense. again this is cause you have a weapon to protect and only one hand to fight with as you can never allow both hands to hold or be occupied as that is when one of his will find your weapon. they also really not expected to last after a couple blows. this officer did an excellent job in the clip i saw. up to the point the clip ended he had 2 things in mind. dont let him get my weapon and dont die. after that you have to break contact and create space and or hope he runs out of gas first..

if you dont have control in a few seconds you need to think how to get away. cause a few seconds later you will be exhausted. it is about whose adrenaline stops flowing first. it isn't about conditioning as this wont last that long. there were several chances the use his aggressiveness against him to get him on the ground or far enough away to draw. once you attack an officer like that you signed your death warrant has you are trying to get his weapon or kill him and he cant let you get the weapon.

if you have never been in a fight for your life you really cant comment on the officers training or his technical skills. it is hard to fight an obviously bigger stronger man with one had or no hands as your primary job is not letting him land the big one while protecting that weapon. if this guy was killed the officer was fully justified. thankfully a bystander ran to the officers aid.

this guy might have gotten to close to some of your interpretation but how else can he control or search the suspect. you cant, that is the crappy part of the job . you have to walk into a situation others would think is a no way im gonna do that. you have to deal with stuff you brain is screaming not to do.

these are things those who aren't called to this vocation can never comprehend. so learn from the video. that is what it is there for but dont pick apart his actions unless you have interviewed him thoroughly and understand his frame of mind thinking and reasons for actions.

your job is survival. if he survived his actions were good enough for me.

in looking these types of things the point is not ridicule placing blame or other negative stuff we see people do. you are to learn absorb and go thru it in your mind

finally always be thinking about any scenario that involves stuff like this . make them up go over them decide what your going to d if it happens. this is just like muscle memory drills. you will react much quicker if you played this out in your mind several times before it happens. it is called training and it saves more lives than tasers pepper spray batons guns or physical violence.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Now I understand why LEOs I have had routine contact with in the past constantly point their firearms at me. You never know when someone will decide to take a swing at you, I guess, and I am a big rough-looking guy. I had previously thought this practice excessive as I was raised to "never point your gun at anything you are not willing to destroy", and I figured a complying traffic offender is not someone the cop would be willing to shoot. That guy in the car looked to be an well-schooled street-fighter, I wonder why the cop didn't cover him with his weapon? They always do when they pull me over.

[leadcounsel]

Edited By Moderator: What if the Officer had used this amount of force on the suspect

I question societies responses which have tied the hands of police. I once knew a cop who got beaten very badly like this and was completely defensive without doing much offensive, including drawing his gun, because of the SEVERE ramifications including investigations, desk work, and paperwork involved when police draw or use their sidearms.

This is the first time I've seen this video. I'd like to know how it ends. Dollars to donuts the suspect was not injured, despite deserving it, or we would have seen it all over the news. I for one would liked to have seen that perp get his A** whipped.

Socieity won't condone that however, which encourages perps to fight back and flee. A sad state of affairs.

I will agree that the cop handled it very badly. He approached too lax. He was outnumbered and should have had backup. He should have not engaged at that close of distance. He should have been parked to obstruct the gate. Could have been done much better.

[DunedinDragon]

My initial reaction to watching this video is it identifies to me a hole in this officer's training as far as hand-to-hand techniques. It's not necessarily his fault as it's a VERY common deficiency I've noted in almost all videos I've seen like this. The difference is, this guy REALLY had a perfect opportunity to get the situation under control at one point, but missed it big time.

Take a look at the video and pause it shortly after the conflict starts at 18:04:40. Note how the officer pushed the assailant back slightly and gained some space. But when the attacker pursued him he stayed flat footed and directly in line with the attacker. With a little better training as far as footwork he would have easily been able to move out of the line of attack and used the attacker's momentum against him to gain space and time. Next time you watch a boxing match notice how boxers never stay in a direct line with an attack. That type of reaction comes from endless hours of training in footwork.

I competed for several years in martial arts tournaments and that is the one area I have to say is truly lacking in every hand-to-hand combat training class I've ever attended. There's a reason Boxers and Football players work so hard and diligently on footwork. It makes a HUGE difference in being able to remain in control of any conflict. The person that controls the spacing, remains balanced, and uses his opponents momentum against them during the conflict is going to be the one who wins the conflict 99% of the time. But it has to be drilled and practiced until it becomes natural reaction.

[invention_45]

Now after viewing that what would any LEOs out there have to say and if this was just the common concealed carry citizen how would you react?

I didn't see this get addressed at all. I'm not a LEO. But I can tell you that in my mind this looked like the perp using force that could have caused serious bodily injury, and would have been clearly over the line and resulted in my being justified to shoot him in self-defense.

This is not just bluster. So, what I'd like to do is re-ask that question. I'd like mostly LEO response. Am I wrong to think this sort of stuff is dangerous enough to me?

In answering, make the assumption that I would be as able to retreat as was the officer. Or make the assumption that I was flatly able to retreat but bear in mind that I'm in Florida, supposedly a SYG state.

Any answers?

[NBT]

Sucky cop could've used his ELBOW but never did, had many opportunities where the guy's jaw was directly behind him in striking range. WAP! and it's over.
All he did was grab on to the guy's arm while taking punches to the back of the head. I would've knocked this EDITED: Assailant (the Race had nothing to do with it)flat on his @ss.

I've seen videos of cops taking on 2 assailants simultaneously and effectively taking control of the situation.
But here are still too many cops out there who lack hand to hand combat skills let alone firearms skills. It's good this incident happened cuz now departments all over the country can revamp their training procedures.

[zamboxl]

invention 45 what is an syg state, are u talkign about the whole meet force with force thing we got going down here or what? o and by the way we live in the same county.

[epr105]

For all of the critics when was the last time you had to fight for your life??? There can always be better training. There can be better physical fitness programs for officers. The bottom line is unless you have been in a fight for your life you just dont know what you would do. Seconds seem like minutes and then there is the suprise factor when you are taken off guard. I blame alot of the mistakes on the use of force that is being taught to LE now. Most LEO'S are not sure at what point they can engage with what level of force. They know that the camera is rolling and dont want to make a mistake and get suspended or terminated. This is a sad world that we live in the liberals have taken over and the courts let them.

Everyone can be a monday morning quarterback........but have you been in the game???

Ed
EPR105