Weighing everything

frumious · January 25, 2012, 08:34 PM

A couple weeks ago I bought a Lyman 1200 DPS-3 powder measure, mainly because it is a pain in the neck to work up loads using the powder measure on my RCBS Pro-2000. The powder measure on the press is micrometer-adjusted, but finding the correct micrometer setting for a given charge of a given powder is tedious, never mind doing it for 5 or 10 or 20 different charges.

While I was being anal-retentive about charge weights I thought I'd go ahead and weigh bullets and brass too. I was working up loads for .308 and .45-70. For the .308 I am using Remington brass, Hornady 168-grain match HP's, and Accurate 2520. For the 45-70 I am using Starline brass, Hornady 300-grain JHP's, and IMR 3031. Winchester primers in both. All brass had been trimmed to length at most a couple loadings ago. I am neck sizing only on the .308.

I weighed the cases and bullets with a separate scale I have - a little $30 Frankford Arsenal digital unit. All the bullets and brass exhibited some weight spread - about 3-5 grains. That is, except the Hornady Match 168's - I weighed about 10 of them and then just called it quits. They were all within about .1 grain of each other - 168.2 to 168.3.

The results seemed to speak for themselves, at least in .308. The average of all 10 groups was 1.5", which is right in line with the best I've ever done with a SINGLE charge weight but not weighing bullets or brass. Normally I wouldn't consider it useful to average the size of 10 groups with different powder charges. But the fact that these averaged so well seems to indicate to me that when I DO find a "pet load" for this rifle - using the "weigh everything" tactic - it will average quite a bit lower than I am used to.

As to the 45-70...still not there yet, it seems. But I HAVE to believe weighing everything helps accuracy.

One problem with working up loads is I am not sure how good a shot I am. Sometimes I wish I could build the rounds and then have someone who has been shooting rifles for 20+ years shoot them for me but that's not going to happen

I have only been shooting rifles for a couple years now. Oh well, back to the bench....

-cls

mrawesome22 · January 25, 2012, 09:20 PM

You had bullets with a 5-10 grain weight spread

homesick · January 25, 2012, 10:15 PM

Something isn't right as a 5 to 10 gr difference in bullets just isn't right. I may have a one tenth of a grain difference in bullets but never more. Have you rechecked your powder charges to see if they weigh to same / example
weigh one charge / dump it back in pan / and re weigh it.

frumious · January 25, 2012, 11:11 PM

OK, I looked at my notes and weighed more cases and bullets tonight and here is more accurate data, sorry:

Hornady 300gr .458 HP's - 298-301 grains
Starline 45-70 brass, primed - 199-202 grains
R-P 308 brass, primed - 170-174 grains

So it was more like a 3-5 grain spread

OP has been corrected.

homesick, I didn't follow you at first but I got it finally. You are worried about the accuracy of my powder weighings based on suspected inaccuracy of my bullet weighings. Understood, and thanks. However, I was using a different scale for the bullets and brass. The arrangement of the DPS makes weighing tall cases or really anything where you place and replace single items a pain. So I used my little FA digital scale. Again, OP has been corrected

OTOH last night I weighed some cast, pre-lubed 405-grainers I had purchased for my .45-70 and they were all over the place. Out of 600 bullets, 80% were in the 399 - 407 grain range, 10% were 396 - 399 grains, and another 10% had gaps in the lube so it was hard to compare them with fully-lubed bullets. I was pretty surprised.

-cls

243winxb · January 26, 2012, 09:28 AM

Your last post is showing normal weights. Sorting brass by weight of .1gr will show an improvement on target, getting rid of flyers in the 308. Clean brass & trim before weighting. Uniforming the flash hole is good to do also.

PawPaw · January 26, 2012, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frumious

OTOH last night I weighed some cast, pre-lubed 405-grainers I had purchased for my .45-70 and they were all over the place. Out of 600 bullets, 80% were in the 399 - 407 grain range, 10% were 396 - 399 grains, and another 10% had gaps in the lube so it was hard to compare them with fully-lubed bullets. I was pretty surprised.

Welcome to cast bullets. You've run into the bell curve of quality control. My cast bullets normally vary by some statistically pre-determined amount. If it's worth it to weigh them, I weigh them. If it's not worth it to weigh them, I don't.

When is it worth it to weigh them? If I'm working up loads for my Sharps with long-range 500 grain bullets, they take a trip over the scale. If I'm loading 405 grainers for my Handi-rifle, for backyard plinking and teaching grandkids, I probably won't weigh those. It depends on how I intend to use the ammunition.

However, when I do weigh bullets, I find that they generally fall into a bell curve like you've described and if the curve is steep, then I might reject the upper and lower portions for remelting.

Tex S · January 26, 2012, 12:22 PM

Might wanna double check the accuracy of those cheap Frankfort arsenal scales. I bought a set, weighed about 10 bullets (checking the numbers with my pact digitals), then sent the Frankfort arsenal scales back to midway.

You get what you pay for. The cheap scales are, well, cheap.

If you are going to take the time to weigh components I suggest you invest a little cash in a good set of digitals.

toolguy2006 · January 26, 2012, 12:50 PM

Frumious:

FWIW, I started weighing the 168gr A-Max bullets that I use, and the first 50 out of the box weighed within .4 gr of each other (168.0-168.4 gr), which impressed me. However, the last box of these bullets that I bought about half weighed in between 168.0-168.4, the other half at 167.5-167.9, and just a few were as low as 167 or so.

temmi · January 26, 2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Your last post is showing normal weights. Sorting brass by weight of .1gr will show an improvement on target, getting rid of flyers in the 308. Clean brass & trim before weighting. Uniforming the flash hole is good to do also.

I agree.

I fully prep brass; Uniform Primer Pockets, trim to exact length, deburr and camfer necks and deburr flash holes

Then I weigh and sort brass into .5g lots.

I weigh bullets and sort by exact weights

Prime cases and reweigh and record weights.

Weigh each powder charge and dump into case.

Seat bullet

Add all weights together and check weight of finished round on scale they should be +/-.3g

Snake

mrawesome22 · January 26, 2012, 03:19 PM

Or you can buy Norma brass and all 100 pieces will be within .2gr of each other.

I have to question the accuracy of some scales here. Even vmax, which are not match bullets, only show a +/- .1 gr variance on my scales.

frumious · January 26, 2012, 04:41 PM

Yeah, my FA scale is probably not as accurate as the Lyman. Tonight I will do a test to see how much difference there is.

Even though it is sort of a pain I really can use the Lyman to do all my weighings. But I'm trying to be careful with it as I want it to last (the thing was almost $300!) If the FA proves to be really off then I will look at replacing it with a higher quality digital. Does anyone have any recommendations in the $50-$100 range or am I kidding myself?

-cls

Major Dave (retired) · January 27, 2012, 01:30 PM

a set of check weights?

I have 2 different balance beam scales, and I "zero" them using check weights, as close to the weight of the item being weighed. If the check weight is labeled as 50 grains, then the scale must say exactly the same - not .1 grain off, plus or minus. Zero tolerance.

After you zero the scale using check weights, don't move it. Also, be sure there are no wind currents in the room. A ceiling fan, or a hot air duct in the ceiling will cause erratic, untrustworthy readings.

Brian Pfleuger · January 27, 2012, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrawesome22

Or you can buy Norma brass and all 100 pieces will be within .2gr of each other.

I have to question the accuracy of some scales here. Even vmax, which are not match bullets, only show a +/- .1 gr variance on my scales.

Yep, Norma brass all the way. It's not that expensive unless you shoot A LOT and it's definitely worth it for precision loads. Comes pre-prepped and ready to load, virtually no weight variance at all.

I agree on the bullet weights too. This has come up before and I weighed quite a few at that time. 9mm, 10mm, .204, .22-250, 7mm, from Barnes, Sierra, Hornady and Speer, none come close to those variances reported by the OP. Handgun bullets are the worst and they were about +.3 -.2, IIRC. Rifle bullets are almost always within +-0.1

amamnn · January 27, 2012, 06:43 PM

I've found that buying premium brass - like Norma or Lapua - and premium bullets - like Precsicion Ballistics or Cheek's or Bart's - for my match rifles is well worth the momey - since for one reason- I don't have to worry about wildly varying weights or dimensions.

For my hand guns and plinking rifles I buy standard grade stuff and check it on arrival. Any variance in excess of 5% of the average is culled. So far, I have not had to cull a lot and it makes no difference as to where the bullets land on the target until and unless it exceeds that 5%.

For example: an average of 100 grains in .223 rem brass would require that any brass weighing more than 105 gr. or less than 95 gr. be culled.

chromics · February 12, 2012, 07:41 AM

It takes some time, but what I've found successful is to select a powder ( I use Unique a lot) then throw charges at varying micrometer settings. I record these and then plot them in Excel. You end up with a linear plot that characterizes the powder. Once you have established the graph, you can select any charge and see the corresponding micrometer setting that delivers it.

I too am a nut for weighing. There's one thing that I've found to be very influencing on accuracy, flash hole diameter. I took a stainless steel rod slightly larger than my .6mm flash home then carefully ground and sanded it into a very long tapered point, then cut it off so about a half inch extends out of the base. Rather like a needle valve insert. If you do it right, you can insert this "gauge" into the flash hole and use your calipers to measure the entire length. Large flash hole, the gauge goes deeper and the overall length gets smaller. The using Excel again I plot the lengths which reflect diameter and a normal curve (bell curve) is developed. I bore out the small holes to approach the average. It's all about ignition, small flash holes jet gas and ignite the charge differently than large holes. I've really seen a difference.

Keep your powder dry,

Jack

McShooty · February 12, 2012, 06:03 PM

I have had great results with the Frankford Arsenal DS-750 scale. All you need to tell if it is working well is a good set of reference weights. I think RCBS sells one. Lacking that, if you can find one 5-gram weight from a balance set somewhere, the FA should return a reading of 77.2 grains. Mine does, plus or minus .1`grain, every time, and I know then it is working fine.

January 25, 2012, 08:34 PM	#1
frumious Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2009 Location: Carrollton TX Posts: 521	Weighing everything A couple weeks ago I bought a Lyman 1200 DPS-3 powder measure, mainly because it is a pain in the neck to work up loads using the powder measure on my RCBS Pro-2000. The powder measure on the press is micrometer-adjusted, but finding the correct micrometer setting for a given charge of a given powder is tedious, never mind doing it for 5 or 10 or 20 different charges. While I was being anal-retentive about charge weights I thought I'd go ahead and weigh bullets and brass too. I was working up loads for .308 and .45-70. For the .308 I am using Remington brass, Hornady 168-grain match HP's, and Accurate 2520. For the 45-70 I am using Starline brass, Hornady 300-grain JHP's, and IMR 3031. Winchester primers in both. All brass had been trimmed to length at most a couple loadings ago. I am neck sizing only on the .308. I weighed the cases and bullets with a separate scale I have - a little $30 Frankford Arsenal digital unit. All the bullets and brass exhibited some weight spread - about 3-5 grains. That is, except the Hornady Match 168's - I weighed about 10 of them and then just called it quits. They were all within about .1 grain of each other - 168.2 to 168.3. The results seemed to speak for themselves, at least in .308. The average of all 10 groups was 1.5", which is right in line with the best I've ever done with a SINGLE charge weight but not weighing bullets or brass. Normally I wouldn't consider it useful to average the size of 10 groups with different powder charges. But the fact that these averaged so well seems to indicate to me that when I DO find a "pet load" for this rifle - using the "weigh everything" tactic - it will average quite a bit lower than I am used to. As to the 45-70...still not there yet, it seems. But I HAVE to believe weighing everything helps accuracy. One problem with working up loads is I am not sure how good a shot I am. Sometimes I wish I could build the rounds and then have someone who has been shooting rifles for 20+ years shoot them for me but that's not going to happen I have only been shooting rifles for a couple years now. Oh well, back to the bench.... -cls Last edited by frumious; January 25, 2012 at 11:20 PM.

January 25, 2012, 11:11 PM	#4
frumious Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2009 Location: Carrollton TX Posts: 521	OK, I looked at my notes and weighed more cases and bullets tonight and here is more accurate data, sorry: Hornady 300gr .458 HP's - 298-301 grains Starline 45-70 brass, primed - 199-202 grains R-P 308 brass, primed - 170-174 grains So it was more like a 3-5 grain spread OP has been corrected. homesick, I didn't follow you at first but I got it finally. You are worried about the accuracy of my powder weighings based on suspected inaccuracy of my bullet weighings. Understood, and thanks. However, I was using a different scale for the bullets and brass. The arrangement of the DPS makes weighing tall cases or really anything where you place and replace single items a pain. So I used my little FA digital scale. Again, OP has been corrected OTOH last night I weighed some cast, pre-lubed 405-grainers I had purchased for my .45-70 and they were all over the place. Out of 600 bullets, 80% were in the 399 - 407 grain range, 10% were 396 - 399 grains, and another 10% had gaps in the lube so it was hard to compare them with fully-lubed bullets. I was pretty surprised. -cls Last edited by frumious; January 25, 2012 at 11:23 PM.

January 26, 2012, 09:28 AM	#5
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	308 Win. Your last post is showing normal weights. Sorting brass by weight of .1gr will show an improvement on target, getting rid of flyers in the 308. Clean brass & trim before weighting. Uniforming the flash hole is good to do also.

January 27, 2012, 01:30 PM	#12
Major Dave (retired) Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2008 Location: Between Dallas and Shreveport, LA Posts: 569	Do you have a set of check weights? I have 2 different balance beam scales, and I "zero" them using check weights, as close to the weight of the item being weighed. If the check weight is labeled as 50 grains, then the scale must say exactly the same - not .1 grain off, plus or minus. Zero tolerance. After you zero the scale using check weights, don't move it. Also, be sure there are no wind currents in the room. A ceiling fan, or a hot air duct in the ceiling will cause erratic, untrustworthy readings. __________________ Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be but a vulgar brawl.

January 27, 2012, 06:43 PM	#14
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	I've found that buying premium brass - like Norma or Lapua - and premium bullets - like Precsicion Ballistics or Cheek's or Bart's - for my match rifles is well worth the momey - since for one reason- I don't have to worry about wildly varying weights or dimensions. For my hand guns and plinking rifles I buy standard grade stuff and check it on arrival. Any variance in excess of 5% of the average is culled. So far, I have not had to cull a lot and it makes no difference as to where the bullets land on the target until and unless it exceeds that 5%. For example: an average of 100 grains in .223 rem brass would require that any brass weighing more than 105 gr. or less than 95 gr. be culled. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

January 25, 2012, 09:20 PM	#2
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	You had bullets with a 5-10 grain weight spread

January 25, 2012, 10:15 PM	#3
homesick Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: Central Florida Posts: 378	Something isn't right as a 5 to 10 gr difference in bullets just isn't right. I may have a one tenth of a grain difference in bullets but never more. Have you rechecked your powder charges to see if they weigh to same / example weigh one charge / dump it back in pan / and re weigh it.

January 26, 2012, 12:22 PM	#7
Tex S Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: Fort Worth, TEXAS Posts: 909	Might wanna double check the accuracy of those cheap Frankfort arsenal scales. I bought a set, weighed about 10 bullets (checking the numbers with my pact digitals), then sent the Frankfort arsenal scales back to midway. You get what you pay for. The cheap scales are, well, cheap. If you are going to take the time to weigh components I suggest you invest a little cash in a good set of digitals.

January 26, 2012, 12:50 PM	#8
toolguy2006 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2010 Location: Western Washington State Posts: 144	Frumious: FWIW, I started weighing the 168gr A-Max bullets that I use, and the first 50 out of the box weighed within .4 gr of each other (168.0-168.4 gr), which impressed me. However, the last box of these bullets that I bought about half weighed in between 168.0-168.4, the other half at 167.5-167.9, and just a few were as low as 167 or so.

January 26, 2012, 03:19 PM	#10
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Or you can buy Norma brass and all 100 pieces will be within .2gr of each other. I have to question the accuracy of some scales here. Even vmax, which are not match bullets, only show a +/- .1 gr variance on my scales.

January 26, 2012, 04:41 PM	#11
frumious Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2009 Location: Carrollton TX Posts: 521	Yeah, my FA scale is probably not as accurate as the Lyman. Tonight I will do a test to see how much difference there is. Even though it is sort of a pain I really can use the Lyman to do all my weighings. But I'm trying to be careful with it as I want it to last (the thing was almost $300!) If the FA proves to be really off then I will look at replacing it with a higher quality digital. Does anyone have any recommendations in the $50-$100 range or am I kidding myself? -cls

February 12, 2012, 07:41 AM	#15
chromics Junior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Posts: 3	Weights and Flash Hole Diameters It takes some time, but what I've found successful is to select a powder ( I use Unique a lot) then throw charges at varying micrometer settings. I record these and then plot them in Excel. You end up with a linear plot that characterizes the powder. Once you have established the graph, you can select any charge and see the corresponding micrometer setting that delivers it. I too am a nut for weighing. There's one thing that I've found to be very influencing on accuracy, flash hole diameter. I took a stainless steel rod slightly larger than my .6mm flash home then carefully ground and sanded it into a very long tapered point, then cut it off so about a half inch extends out of the base. Rather like a needle valve insert. If you do it right, you can insert this "gauge" into the flash hole and use your calipers to measure the entire length. Large flash hole, the gauge goes deeper and the overall length gets smaller. The using Excel again I plot the lengths which reflect diameter and a normal curve (bell curve) is developed. I bore out the small holes to approach the average. It's all about ignition, small flash holes jet gas and ignite the charge differently than large holes. I've really seen a difference. Keep your powder dry, Jack

February 12, 2012, 06:03 PM	#16
McShooty Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2012 Location: Northern Missouri Posts: 480	I have had great results with the Frankford Arsenal DS-750 scale. All you need to tell if it is working well is a good set of reference weights. I think RCBS sells one. Lacking that, if you can find one 5-gram weight from a balance set somewhere, the FA should return a reading of 77.2 grains. Mine does, plus or minus .1`grain, every time, and I know then it is working fine.

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