Judo vs Jiu-jitsu

[KeithC]

Just curious (and too lazy to read through the Google results!). What exactly is the difference between the two art forms?

I've read that judo is a descendant of jiu-jitsu, but really don't know the differences in the practical applications or their variants ("Olympic" vs "Combat" Judo, JJ vs Brazilian JJ, etc.). Compare and contrast the distinctive techniques anybody?

Thanks,
Keith C.

[LASur5r]

When I first started learning the stuff in the 60's, jiujitsu was around in Japan before judo was developed. In the form that I learned it, we used arm bars, stand-up chokes, and hitting besides the throws. Many of the throws involved breaking your opponents joints if you held their limbs right when you threw your attacker. We used a lot of "sacrifice" throws...(letting your opponent throw you and you used that movement to "throw" him. Then we used a lot of "follow-up" techniques to "finish" your opponent. All-in-all, it was pure self-defense aimed at seriously hurting your attacker.
When I moved to southern Cali, I met up with the old time judo players here at Seinan dojo. They informed me that a lot of the throws, hits, and chokes that I had learned in jiujitsu were illegal in their judo play. They showed me the "kinder, gentler" judo way and it appeared that they oriented their practice towards gaining points in their throws as opposed to "hurting" your opponent. In the 70's I saw that judo had many tournaments throughout the U.S.....jiujitsu did not.

Please keep in mind that I am only speaking about the jiujitsu that I had learned in the 60's, not about modern jiujitsu.

[SRYnidan]

Jujitsu
is a comprehensive broad based style of fighting used by the Japanese Samuri. It includes most if not all of the basic approaches to combat;
striking (punching, kicking, gougeing etc.)
throwing
assaults on the joints
constriction (choking, strangulation, etc.)
It directs these techniques through a encyclopedic knowledge of leverage, momentum, human physiology, and phycology.

Judo
is a subset of Jujisu was invented by Jigoro Kano (the Japanese minister of education) about the turn of the century as sport for schools (Japanese wrestling). As such many of the more efective / violent techniques were removed in the interest of safety. I can be a very rough sport but it is a sport.

Brazilian Jujitsu
is a derivitive based on traditional Jujitsu created by the Gracie family. It is a very effective system but at least as taught in this country is more of a tourniment winning system than a street defensive one. The training system used by the Gracies is one of the most though albiet rugged.

P.S. As the night wears on my fingers don't spell so well so please ignore the errors. As some of you may have figured out from my user name I have black belt in DanZan Ryu Jujitsu. I also have studied Judo and worked with Brazilian Jujitsu practitioners

[madgrad]

I've do Dan Zan Ryu Ju Jitsu, and have done Judo.

My Experiance has been that Dan Zan Ryu Ju Jitsu teaches you great breaks, chokes,throws, falling, rolling,striking, and some other finishing techniques. That Judo doesn't, but Judo people will be the hardest to throw, and lock up because you can't strike them when training on the matt.

[Both ARTs utilize Kyzush (off balencing)to get throws to work Judo utilizes grips on the GI to do this. DZR Ju Jitsu uses strikes called Atemi to off Balance you.]

For many of the techniques and openings to work in DZR Ju Jitsu you must strike to loosen up, and open your opponent up. Now, this where the problem lies MANY DZR Schools do not teach you how to strike [even though the strikes are on the Atemi list]or Powder Puff thier Ju Jitsu in order to keep students.

DZR Ju Jitsu by nature is a very hard MA when taught right (on the body)and many people cannot handle it, because your usually hurting in three places at the end of a session. Therefore if you take DZR your milage may very, you need to really check out schools offering it before going signing up.

Judo on the other hand has more restrictions, and not being able to wear a cup is kind of worry some. But, your throws, chokes, pins and footwork will be absoultely perfect,by the time your done [in years of training]. You'll also learn some sneaky techniques too if you go the Judo route as a bonus. The best advantage to Judo is that if you move alot Judo stays pretty consistent no matter where you go, because it is a regulated olympic sport.

My best advice to you is if you take Judo, or DZR Ju Jitsu. Try to take a Striking art like Boxing, Thai Boxing, or Krav Maga. These will help you apply your techniques in whatever you you decide to do.

I hope this info helps you.

[KeithC]

Excellent responses, thank you all.

Madgrad, I'd dabbled with KM and found it very much to my liking. Unfortunately, I was spending almost as much on gas commuting to the school as I was on tuition. I'm currently looking into some WWII Combative instruction and am also about to start "playing" with Systema, a Russian MA, to see how it compares.

BJJ looked *very* effective and promising, but the chief instructor at the local school seemed to focus illustrative techniques on competition rather than real-world scenarios. It seemed like something worth learning but not really "complete", for lack of a better term. Made me wonder if backtracking up the art's family tree might be worthwhile.

Thanks again,
Keith C.

[Glock40]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as popularly taught is simply Judo mat techniques with better rules. The goal of a Brazilian JJ person is to gain submission from their opponent. Period. Everything else is irrelevent.

Judo on the other hand has chosen to reward their fighters for standing throws. When a player goes to the mat, all he has to do is stall for a short amount of time and the referee will stand both of them up again. In addition, you can win in Judo by pinning your opponent. This hampers Judo players from really developing their ground skills. Why go for an armbar when you can get a pin?

All in all, a Judo person will be a better at throws. The BJJ person will be better on the ground because of the way they train and the rules they are used to.

Neither is complete without striking skills.

[CWL]

I learned Judo as a competitive sport.
I learned Jiu Jitsu as a martial art.

[mercop]

My daughter and I got into Martial Arts earlier this year. We both train under the same Sensei (Reddragonjujitsu.com) I take Ju Jitsu and she takes Judo. She is six and won her first Gold Medal yesterday in the Maryland Open.

As stated earlier Judo is the sport form of Ju Jitsu that was invented so that contests could be held without killing each other. Can be very brutal.

Ju Jitsu came about so that the Samurai could protect himself if he lost his sword on the battlefield. Works on body mechanics and is a measured responce ranging from control to death. Ju Jistu matches are tri-phasic. One is punches and kicks. Two is takedowns and throws and third is ground control. Follows the way most street fights go down. BJJ for the most part concentrates on the third.

[jcoiii]

that the difference was judo is "i'm going to wrestle/throw/take you to the ground and place you in holds in order to gain points. jujitsu is "i'm going to wrestle/throw/take you to the ground and place you in holds to rip your throat out because you attacked me and threatened my life. for some reason, that always stuck with me.

[Shmackey]

Been doing BJJ and Judo for a little while now, also know about JJ.

I agree with jcoiii and CWL. Perfect explanations without going into the history. There are lots of things you would do in Jiu-Jitsu that you are not "allowed" to do in Judo. Makes the latter safer to practice full-out, obviously.

My favorite simple explanation: Judo is Jiu-Jitsu with rules.

[gruven]

And then there is Aikido, which is Judo where your Gi actually stays on your body for the entire class!

[Bahadur]

As usual, unfortunate rumors, heresay and other unfounded descriptions have clouded the true historical facts surrounding Judo and Jujutsu.

1. Earliest Jujutsu

The historical origin of Jujutsu is debated and debatable because historical evidences and documentation are, at best, very scant. Contrary to the common view of a "martial art" today, however, it was most certainly not a "unarmed" self-defense system. Most likely, it developed into a series of techniques on weapon (sword, spear, dagger, etc.) retention and draw prevention, mainly involving swords.

2. "Transitional" Jujutsu

After the Meiji Restoration, the wearing of two swords by the Zi-Samurai was banned, leading to the gradual decline of the "ancient" Jujutsu involving weapons. Many transitional Jujutsu Ryu's developed that gradually switched emphasis to empty-hand techniques in response to the changing times. Still, one could easily see the sword/weapon influence (now done against empty-hands or "hand blades") of the earlier techniques. Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujusu, as well as its descendant Aikido, betrays such an origin.

3. Modern Judo

Dr. Kano Jigoro modernized the transitional Jujutsu into a modern system, introducing such scientific concepts as ranks (belts), uniforms (Dogi), systematic curriculum and training as well as sparring (Randori) and contests (Shiai). In police-sponsored contests, Kano's Judo beat all comers from the transitional Jujutsu Ryu's that still relied on antiquated training methods (static, cooperative training and forms or Kata).

4. Olympic Judo

When WWII ended, Judo, along with all Japanese martial arts, was banned by the American occupation authorities. In an effort to "save" Judo from this fate, Kodokan (home of Judo) reformed Judo as a "sport," leading to the eventual adoption of Judo as an Olympic sport. Though the complete Judo curriculum remained "on the books," Olympic Judo emphasizes time limit and Ippon (total victory) based on a flawless throw. More "reforms" are on the way to make Judo "more exciting on TV."

5. Brazilian (or "Gracie") Jujutsu

Brazilian Jujutsu is a descendant of modern Kodokan Judo. It is most certainly not a Jujutsu Ryu in a traditional or transitional sense. While Kodokan Judo evolved into Olympic Judo, Brazilian Jujutsu evolved from modern Judo into a ground grappling and no-holds barred contest system. The entire extant Brazilian Jujutsu curriculum is a subset of existing Judo curriculum on the books. However, some such techniques (such as ankle locks, for example) have been significantly de-emphasized in, or removed from, Olympic Judo.

[M1911]

One of my concerns about Ju Jitsu (not BJJ) is that it seems to have a whole lot of techniques -- e.g., you need to learn 50 techniques to get this belt, another 30 for that belt, etc. To my uneducated mind, it seems to me that I would be better served by something with smaller number of techniques that I learned to apply really well, rather than learning 100 techniques not so well and then having to decide which to apply when. Am I off base?

[mercop]

Many techniques in JJ are training techniques that put several core techniques together. JJ gives you the letters and you make the words.

[Bahadur]

One of my concerns about Ju Jitsu (not BJJ) is that it seems to have a whole lot of techniques -- e.g., you need to learn 50 techniques to get this belt, another 30 for that belt, etc. To my uneducated mind, it seems to me that I would be better served by something with smaller number of techniques that I learned to apply really well, rather than learning 100 techniques not so well and then having to decide which to apply when. Am I off base?

You are not "off base" at all. In fact, that is precisely one of the reasons why "traditional" (more accurately, transitional) Jujutsu suffered at the hands of Dr. Kano's Judoka.

In many transitional Jujutsu-Ryu, literally hundreds of techniques, many of quite questionable in utility, had to be learned to master the curriculum. These techniques were also practiced cooperatively (as in modern Aikikai Aikido) since they could not be used in Randori/sparring without incurring injuries.

Dr. Kano rejected this (he was an accomplished Jujutsuka of his own right) and pared down his techniques to those that 1) could be practiced safely full-force and 2) worked best based on scientific principles of leverage. Then he drilled his students repeatedly in these handful of techniques and, more importantly, had them perform these techniques during Randori against fully-resistant training partners/opponents.

The result was a complete victory for his Judoka against all-comers in police-sponsored contests and the gradual deaths of most transitional Jujutsu Ryu's. His Judoka did suffer one defeat at the hands of a transitional Jujutsu-Ryu that specialized in ground grappling, after which he added such techniques to his Kodokan Judo, thus "completing" the modern Judo curriculum.

[catechism]

1911

One of my concerns about Ju Jitsu (not BJJ) is that it seems to have a whole lot of techniques -- e.g., you need to learn 50 techniques to get this belt, another 30 for that belt, etc. To my uneducated mind, it seems to me that I would be better served by something with smaller number of techniques that I learned to apply really well, rather than learning 100 techniques not so well and then having to decide which to apply when. Am I off base?

I'm not too familiar with Judo or Jujitsu honestly. However in my MA which is based heavily on old school JJ and Chinese MA, there are only eight fundemental ways for any technique. As long as you practice form you shouldn't have to think about the technique when it comes to crunch time. You also shouldn't think about the technique while practicing either.

This is only my experiance which is limited in comparison to others out there but it works for most that I have seen. While a some will struggle for the feeling or essence or their first taste.

[Russell Whitaker]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Bujinkan arts, which subsume a number of what Bahadur calls "earliest" Jiujitsu.
See:
"http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/"

[ARguy]

Hey all
This is a very interesting thread. I know little about JJ because I am only a green belt. I am studying Rensoku Jiu Jitsu from my Sensai. I have learned a great deal about ground fighting and self in only six weeks. We learn katas to acquire the next belt level. Katas are different situations where the attacker is choking from the front or behind and or striking or kicking and we learn different moves to unbalance(kasushi) and throw or take directly into a submission hold. These consist of chokes, wrist locks, arm and shoulder locks, compression locks,pancration locks, heal hooks, calf crunches/Ankle locks. We practice these techniques when we "roll", or have a clean fun match with each other, where we tap out before we feel pain. We use holds restricted in judo but we are careful not to injure each other.
I am getting back into tkd now for the weapon and stand up fighting experience.
Just my $.02
AG

[mercop]

ARguy, green belt in only six weeks. WOW, I have been at it for about a year and am only getting ready to test for my green.

[ARguy]

Mercop,
I am surprised to hear that you have been in it a year and are testing for your green belt. For our green belt testing we had to perform nine katas and demonstrate how to fall. What is required for your green? Our levels start at white, go to green, blue, purple, 3 Degrees of brown, and then to black. What about you?
AG

[mercop]

ARguy, please check out Reddragonjujistu.com all the requirements are there.