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Old June 27, 2010, 11:37 PM   #26
Mike Irwin
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Mal,

I've purchased many hundreds of new rounds of .38 with those "cannelures."

I've found them on target .38s with no crimp and on +Ps with tons of crimp and in rounds with both lead and jacketed ammo.

Rarely are they in a position to do anything positive about bullet setback.

"If they are shot out of a lever action rifle (with a tubular magazine) then you need to worry about bullet setback."

Sorry, I don't buy that, either. I've yet to fire any .38/.357 ammunition out of a lever gun that generates anything nearly enough recoil to make bullet setback a worry.

And, I've been seeing those marks on cases since the middle 1970s, when I first started buying ammo.

At that time lever action rifles in .38/.357 were pretty much nonexistent.
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Old June 28, 2010, 09:25 AM   #27
Mal H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Mal,

I've purchased many hundreds of new rounds of .38 with those "cannelures."
...
Rarely are they in a position to do anything positive about bullet setback.
Agreed, and that's why I said, "Setback prevention is a possibility, but as I, and others, have said, they are usually too far down the case to think that was the intention" among other statements negating the setback theory.

There is a reason for the rings, we just haven't discovered it yet. No manufacturer in their right mind would include an extra process in the manufacture of their cases if it was unnecessary. I seriously doubt it is a "decoration".
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Old June 28, 2010, 09:34 AM   #28
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shooters love their gimmicks and gadgets. These marked cases differentiated themselves from the others visually. With some of the people I've known, that little ring, or a dab of red primer seal, or even a black coated bullet will make the thing more appealing, and more valuable.

It took a single operation to roll engrave those things into a case, and it may have even been done during another operation. It couldn't have added even the slightest bit of real cost to the shell, but I'm of the opinon that it added intangible value to the entire company's line, by making that individual cartridge look better, and more high tech.
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Old June 28, 2010, 10:50 AM   #29
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Another vote for "racing stripe"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
...shooters love their gimmicks and gadgets. These marked cases differentiated themselves from the others visually. With some of the people I've known, that little ring, or a dab of red primer seal, or even a black coated bullet will make the thing more appealing"...
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Old June 28, 2010, 11:28 AM   #30
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Quote:
shooters love their gimmicks and gadgets. These marked cases differentiated themselves from the others visually. With some of the people I've known, that little ring, or a dab of red primer seal, or even a black coated bullet will make the thing more appealing, and more valuable.
I don't see this as a possibility either on account of the inconsistency of placement. I have boxes of factory ammo with these rings in different places on rounds from the same box.

I think this is why it's so strange. If these marks were in roughly the same place, we could surmise that whatever purpose it serves is the same on every round. However, that's not the case.

This is really funny though. I love threads like this. Somebody asks about something that I've wondered about as well, I expect it to be answered quickly by someone in the know, then it stumps everyone.
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Old June 28, 2010, 12:15 PM   #31
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I was alwsya told it was to prevent bullet set back.

See this link at least one manufacture does it.

http://www.corbins.com/pr-4070.htm
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Old June 28, 2010, 12:45 PM   #32
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A .45-70 is quite the different critter.

It has markedly more recoil than a .38 or .357.

As others have noted, bullets moving FORWARD is often more of a problem with cartridges traditionally chambered for revolvers than bullet setback.
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Old June 28, 2010, 01:27 PM   #33
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I was told the rings are there as a means of identifying different loads. But as was noted, if they are different in a box of new rounds that theory is out the window. I have seen these on many caliber cases. None of them was ever deep enough to have any effect on setback
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Old June 28, 2010, 02:20 PM   #34
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Quote:
I think this is why it's so strange. If these marks were in roughly the same place, we could surmise that whatever purpose it serves is the same on every round. However, that's not the case.
Quote:
I don't see this as a possibility either on account of the inconsistency of placement. I have boxes of factory ammo with these rings in different places on rounds from the same box.
I'm not sure I understand your point there.

What you are saying just supported the "decoration" theory, in that what probably happened is two different lots of brass got mixed on the production lines. If there was a genuine need for the roll marks, that brass would have been separated by SKU number, and never mixed.

If there was a genuine purpose for it, other than decoration, I don't believe that the inconsistency of placement would be so common.

I'd also like to toss in that these are loaded at a factory, and the machines are (were) set up by men and micrometers, so they certainly aren't used as reference points for loading, like "powder to here, bullet to here..."

If there was a genuine purpose, they would be more consistent in location and usage, and most importantly, the manufacturers themselves would be touting them in their advertising as being important, and giving their reasons for using them.

"look, our brand has roll marks on the cases, which the other guys don't, so our ammo is better because**** and theirs isn't."
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Old June 28, 2010, 02:28 PM   #35
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I was told the rings are there as a means of identifying different loads. But as was noted, if they are different in a box of new rounds that theory is out the window.
That is the most logical answer yet, but still flawed. Manufacturing wouldn't need them, as those things are run in lots of millions of cartridges, and barreled and packaged as lots, rather than like a beer bottler who just has to change pumps, flush his system, and change labels if he changes from IPA to lager. If they were for end user identification a consistent system would be in use, like the military has.

It isn't entirely wrong, though, because a roll marked case could be easily picked out among a selection of standard hollow points, for example.
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Old July 1, 2010, 01:21 AM   #36
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Seriously? No answer?

I guess I'll just always wonder what those rings are all about....
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Old July 1, 2010, 11:03 AM   #37
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Quote:
"If they are shot out of a lever action rifle (with a tubular magazine) then you need to worry about bullet setback."

Sorry, I don't buy that, either. I've yet to fire any .38/.357 ammunition out of a lever gun that generates anything nearly enough recoil to make bullet setback a worry.
Sorry, my personal experience is different. With a tube full of 10 rounds, you now have more than 10X the bullet weight, plus the magazine spring pressure, even with negligible felt recoil. I have seen it happen myself. A gentleman at a match was experiencing audibly different report between shots in his rifle. He emptied the magazine, and there it was, some of the rounds were set back, others not. Those that were set back were visibly not crimped as much as those that were not.

Whether the case cannelure is there for that reason remains to be seen, but I was responding to a statement that we don't need to worry about setback in 38/357 cartridges. My experience refutes that, and I don't want anyone to think that it cannot happen to them.

Andy
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Old July 1, 2010, 11:40 AM   #38
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For 45 long colt, and 45-70 I was told that the rings are there for reloading.
The lines give the proper depth for black powder.
45/70, Instead of having to measure every load. To get the 70 gr of black powder you fill the case to the line and seat a paper patched bullet. I actually measured this once and it came out to be very close to 70 GR. I have no idea what the normal load was for BP in Long colt to prove that it’s possible.
I don’t know if the first 38's that came out were black powder or not.
But the ring around the 45/70 and LC are different than what is on the photos. One possibility could be to add strength to the case. A vertical line added to a curved structure does add strength.
It could also be as simple as they have been doing it for so long with tooling that is also very old, why fix something that’s not broken.
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Old July 1, 2010, 11:51 AM   #39
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Then after doing a little looking,,,, wonderful thing the internet is!!!!!
There is an explanation at the bottom of the page at the following.
Anyone want to take a guess before looking???

Farmland wins!!!

http://www.corbins.com/power.htm

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Old November 11, 2015, 08:09 PM   #40
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Came upon this old thread doing a search for the explanation of those little rings on several batches of .38 and ,357 brass in my bench. At first I was amused by all the guesses as to what they were for, then I found myself disappointed that no one really knew what those suckers were for!
I agree that some of the rings are way too far down to be an internal stop for bullet seating. We have seen them all over the place; single rings, double rings, serrated and solid rings - surely someone knows why the manufacturers went to the trouble and expense of putting these in and in so many different locations. Damn!
The reason I even searched in the first place, is while I was sorting these out, it kept going around in my head that somewhere in my murky past I had read that these rings were there to identify the pressure that the case was rated at. What?
Well, that's why I did the search, to dispel that ugly tale with the truth. But it seems the answer may be buried in the X-Files somewhere: ("The Truth is Out There.")
Anyway, if somewhere on this forum the real reason (or best -sounding theory) has been expressed, someone please direct me.
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Old November 12, 2015, 08:14 AM   #41
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I have a lot of brass in different calibers with these. All of my of 38 R.P brass has the two rings. I don't know what they are supposed to do, if anything, but just use it like you would any other brass.



Oh crap, just noticed this was an ancient dead thread. Never mind!
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Old November 12, 2015, 11:13 AM   #42
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This is actually a case where reopening an ancient thread is warranted based on slimshot's observations about the original discussion.

I've never heard the "pressure the cases are rated at" theory. That's pretty much the job of the headstamp to identify that (.38 Spl., +P, or +P+)

My theory is that it has nothing to do really with anything that we need to concern ourselves about as either shooters or handloaders...

My theory is it's a function of the machinery that's used to load the ammo.
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Old November 12, 2015, 11:41 AM   #43
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This .45 AUTO drawing from 1918 shows the case cannelure right behind the bullet base,the magazine follower nub fits right in it.It would seem that in this case the cannelure is meant to work with the nub to prevent last round misfeeds.
http://www.sightm1911.com/1911pix/cutaway/45acp11.jpg
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Old November 12, 2015, 05:27 PM   #44
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Not that I gave it much thought, but . . .

I always just kind of assumed it was to assist with load identification at the factory.

I don't know what quality control / packaging looks like at a factory, but if humans are actually looking at them, I would think a line and/or cannelure (I have a bunch with both) would help them know exactly what loading they're looking at.

But I don't actually know.

I have also observed that I don't see it nearly as much these days. Maybe it's because modern quality control / packaging is more automated these days?? With no human looking at them, there's no need to identify them? It would fit my theory
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Old November 12, 2015, 07:34 PM   #45
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I wanted to add one observation to this thread. The Remington cases that I have seen with two cannelures were loaded with 200 grain bullets. Aside from an additional cannelure, the cartridges looked like the normal 158 grain loading, but there was a lot more bullet hidden in the case on top of 4 grains of something (probably similar to Hercules Infallible powder). I have always thought those rings had to have something to do with seating depth and bullet hold.
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Old November 15, 2015, 05:32 PM   #46
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Interesting topic, so I figured I would add a photo. These are factory rounds, the empty in the middle is a fired example of the Federal round. Lots of differences in depth and location.

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Old November 15, 2015, 07:41 PM   #47
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Quote:
Lots of differences in depth and location.
That's why I think it (usually) has to do with identification at the factory.
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Old November 16, 2015, 09:21 AM   #48
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Just my thought to set back. That it is a fantasy in revolvers. Maybe set back in a rifle chambered in 38spl but no way in revolvers.
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Old November 16, 2015, 09:13 PM   #49
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I h ave literally hundreds of marked cases. They may have been marked to identify the load, they may have been marked for purely cosmetic reasons, to make them pretty.

I am rather inclined to think that they are marking special purpose rounds, much like paint on tips of military ammo.
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