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Old June 15, 2010, 05:13 PM   #1
dethrok
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9 mm Bullet Seating/Crimp Question

Ok, so Im new to reloading and these are my first 9mm cartridges off the press.

I'm a bit concerned about the final bullet seating stage.

I followed the directions as explicitly as I could in reloading these, including using the fourth crimp die from my Lee kit.

Before crimping them, they looked overly flared with the bullet. I suspect I need to flare the case a bit more when resizing so the bullet does not flare quite so much when seated. I really didn't push that hard on these, they went in quite easily, but again, I'm new.

So I crimped 5 of them and they look overly crimped to me. But again, what do I know.


Data: Win once fired brass. Rainier 115 RN bullets.

So here is a picture, let me know what you think. I'd like to go to the range, but being my first loads, I'm a bit antsy.

PS. They chamber in my 9mm barrel just fine.
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File Type: jpg IMG_0824_t.jpg (166.5 KB, 758 views)

Last edited by dethrok; June 15, 2010 at 07:10 PM.
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Old June 15, 2010, 09:11 PM   #2
chris in va
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Quote:
Before crimping them, they looked overly flared with the bullet.
Pretty much normal, especially with soft brass like federal. Looks like a snake ate a watermelon.

Probably a tad heavy on the FCD taper, might want to back off a bit. Won't really hurt things though, maybe make it a little more inaccurate. I tried some with and without heavy taper crimp and it really didn't do much.

I've loaded a few thousand 9mm, mostly cast lead with the 4 die Lee set.

BTW one thing I didn't learn until halfway through, the seating die also has a crimp feature. It doesn't squeeze the case like the FCD does, just crimps the case mouth. Just something else to play with!
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Old June 15, 2010, 09:16 PM   #3
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Don't over crimp. The 9mm headspaces on the mouth of the case
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Old June 15, 2010, 09:20 PM   #4
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I've been told that the crimp on a 9mm should be minimal. The way I do mine is to back the crimp die out so that I can run the cartridge all the way up without making contact with the die. I then screw the die in until it makes contact with the bullet. Then, I lower the cartridge a bit and screw the die down an additional 1/8 of a turn more.
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Old June 15, 2010, 09:54 PM   #5
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The Rainier is a really soft lead bullet (swaged core). All I try to do is to close the flare I created to assist with bullet seating.

I normally flare the minimum amount to allow the bullet to seat without shaving any jacket material or lead. On the Rainier, they seat easy, so .002 to .003" are plenty of flare for me. I use a taper crimp to bring it back to the before flare measurement.

What you don't want is any setback. I measure the length of the first round in the magazine, add a second round. Chamber and fire the top round (second added to the magazine), take the live round out and measure the length. If the bullet is moving back any, you can have big problems. Make sure you safely handle the pistol if you use this method. Some people press the bullet against the bench, some load a dummy round to check for setback. I like having the pistol chamber the round from the firing action.

The neck tension from the resized case is what holds the bullet securely. Crimp will not correct sizing problems that do not adequately grip the bullet.

I realize many folks swear by the Lee FCD, I have them but don't find the need to use them. YMMV
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Old June 16, 2010, 07:08 AM   #6
g.willikers
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An easy way to judge the crimp is to compare it to a factory load.
Put both the factory and the reloaded rounds side by side and look down on them from the bullet end.
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Old June 16, 2010, 07:17 AM   #7
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
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Crimp in semiautos is really a poor description of what is actually happening. A crimp on a semiauto case is used only to remove the flare you put on the case to seat the bullet. The crimp does not hold the bullet. The crimp allows the case to chamber fully and headspace on the case mouth. The bullet is held by the case tension below the case mouth. When you run a round into the seat/crimp die you should just feel it kiss the die at the very bottom of the stroke. Use just enough "crimp" to remove the slight flare you put on the case.
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Old June 16, 2010, 07:50 AM   #8
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Old June 16, 2010, 08:20 AM   #9
Don P
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They looked fine in the picture.
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Old June 16, 2010, 08:39 AM   #10
Sevens
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Good information in this thread, and some of my post will just be more of the same, but here is my take anyhow.

9mm is a tapered case, not straight wall. It's kind of hard to tell with the naked eye, but the truth is that it's larger in diameter around the case head than the case mouth. But when the sizing die squeezes it down to return the case mouth to a usable size, it attempts to turn it in to a straight wall case.

That's why when you seat a bullet, it ends up looking wasp-waisted, like chris in va said, looks like a snake ate a watermelon.

Really -- that's the look you are going for.

When you use that Lee FCD fourth die, you are doing a post-loaded round full length sizing on the whole cartridge, and it's not doing you or your ammo any favors.

I would suggest that you set that FCD aside and try to build some working, quality ammo without it. Use the taper crimping built in to your 3rd die, the bullet seating die.

You can adjust the amount of taper crimp that your seater die is applying by how far the entire die itself is screwed in to your press. You then adjust your bullet depth by screwing the seater plug in or out.

Load a round using a light taper crimp and then take the cartridge and firmly push it, bullet forward, in to the edge of your loading bench. See how much strength it takes you to push that bullet in further.

If it slides in easily, you don't have proper case mouth tension and no amount of taper crimp will fix that. The FCD might band-aid that problem, but not properly.

If you are finding trouble with solid case mouth tension, examine how much mouth flaring you are doing. Your goal is to use as little mouth flaring as you can, yet still start a bullet without damaging the bullet or the brass.

In your picture (hard to tell), I like the "no crimp" pictures better. The "Lee crimp" seem to show too much hacking on the loaded round by the FCD.
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Old June 16, 2010, 04:46 PM   #11
dethrok
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Thanks so far for the comments everyone.

A few questions.

1. Someone suggested skipping the 4th die and using the 3rd (bullet seating die) to do the taper crimp there. How does one get it to do more than its doing now without pushing the bullet in farther.

When I set the bullet on the case prior to seating, it just sits mostly on top. I've had issues trying to get it to stay there, so I dont' think its overly flared.
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Old June 16, 2010, 06:27 PM   #12
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
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Setting up your 3rd die to seat and crimp.
First, back out the die so the crimping portion of the die will not crimp the case. Seat a bullet to the overall length you wish to use. Now, back the seating stem almost all the way out. put the round back up in the die and screw the die in until you feel the crimping portion of the die contact the case mouth. Adjust your crimp as needed from there. Screw the die in further for more crimp, back it out for less crimp. Once you have this figured out, run the round back up into the die and screw the seating stem back down until it firmly contact the bullet. That's it. Good luck!
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Old June 22, 2010, 01:03 PM   #13
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As others have noted, the crimping process is only to straighten out the flare that you put in during die#2, it adds very little holding "neck tension" value to the round. When I flare my 9mm rounds, it is only the tiniest little bit, you can almost not even tell there is a flare. I cannot even barely start my bullets except for the tiniest bit. I let the bullet seater push them in for me. As long as I am not seeing any shavings on the side, I know they are good and tight, but not too tight to shave the bullet. I use FMJ bullets when I do this. Then, the taper crimp straightens out this tiny amount of flare and the round is done.
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Old June 22, 2010, 05:01 PM   #14
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If these loads are going to be crimped won't the case length have to be the same on all cases once the crimp die is set?
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Old June 23, 2010, 09:53 AM   #15
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Theoretically, yes... in practice, it doesn't seem to affect it very much. If your cases were vastly different in length, then you would have issues with crimping on the cases. In practice, I don't find 9mm to lengthen hardly at all over time, so as long as they weren't different the first time I reloaded them, then I don't seem to get issues over time.

That being said, if you have the time and patience to trim them all uniformly the very first time, go for it, as it will just make your reloading experience a little bit better. For me, with about 3000 pieces of 9mm brass laying around, just don't want to invest that kind of time for plinking rounds.
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Old July 1, 2010, 10:54 AM   #16
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I do agree to all that has been written here, but I prefer a firm taper crimp when reloading 9mm.
I use the following description when setting up my taper crimp dies. There is a lot of good information for reloading 9mm at the following and hope it helps.
Another way to set up a taper crimp die is to place a loaded factory round new out of a box and set it on your press and with the taper crimp die all the way out. Bring the case all the way into the press. Then slowly screw the die down until it makes contact with the case. Remove the case from the die and turn the die ¼ turn lower, this is normally a good starting place. This usually gives me a taper crimp of 0.002.
Go down to F. Crimping

http://czechpistols82792.yuku.com/to...S-for-9mm.html

To me the photos of the cases that were not crimped are a good indication that you’re not over belling your cases and you’re getting a good tight fit between bullet and case which will make for good reloads. All of my 9mm look the same before I taper crimp.
For all of my auto rounds I never use the seating/crimp die to do anything but seat the bullet to the proper depth. I only use a taper crimp die and set the depth by diameter at the case mouth which is described very well in the article.
I find this very important when loading hollow point bullets like XTP’s. If you try to crimp as the bullet is being seated it can deform the bullet tip.
When I hear that crimping does nothing to hold the bullet in to the case I disagree, it does add some tension at the top of the case without deforming the case or bullet. The main advantage of the taper crimp is that it gives a consistent and reliable outer edge diameter to the end of the case where it seats no matter what mix or type of 9mm cases you use.
I will agree that your case to bullet tightness before any crimping is more important to holding a bullet than the crimp. It’s one reason I don’t bell cases very much
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