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Old May 31, 2010, 09:56 AM   #1
cryogenic419
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Considering going progressive

Currently I am loading on a single stage Rockchucker, very happy with the ammo I am able to produce. I've been loading for 10 years or so and am comfortable with loading on the single stage. What I am not happy with is the limits of rounds per hour I am able to put out on a single stage. I truly enjoy loading but between work and all the other chores of life, loading takes away too much time time from what free time I do have. So I have been looking at, pricing, reading manuals, watching videos on youtube, and trolling forums like no tomorrow. I have it narrowed down to either Dillion 650 or Hornady LNL AP, leaning heavily more towards the LNL. I did consider the RCBS Pro 2000 but it seems that system is not quite there yet.

I'll be honest, progressive presses are a bit intimidating to me. So much going on all at once and some things I just don't have the hands on experience with. I'm betting once I have one in hand and I pull the lever a few times and see what and what does not happen I'll be fine. But as much info as I can find I still have a bunch of questions. I'm sure once I take the jump to progressive, I will look back at some of my questions and laugh and wonder why I worried about it.

1. There is some sort of catch container for spent primers that get punched out when resizing on the progressives right?

2. Do I have to use the powder measure that comes with the press? I have one I currently use that I like. It works with everything I throw at it and maintains the charge weights very well. I am not set in stone to stay with my current measure, I just don't want to go from reliable and worry free to something lesser.

3. Case activated powder drop? Meaning unless there is a case there is no way its dropping powder? So what happens when you're starting out with your first round? Every time you pull the lever for the press, doesn't that move the mechanicals for the powder measure? Or if there isn't a case there, the mechanicals are disconnected somehow?

4. Powder check die. Is it necessary? Can I view the powder charge when loading? I would like to monitor this one way or another, whether by the check die or visually seeing the powder charge as this stage is probably where things can go the most wrong. Based on my loading layout for pistol listed below there is not room for for this. For rifle there would be room for it.

5. Priming. Currently I use a seperate hand tool for priming and I see the LNL can be set up to prime the cases. The layout for pistols I am thinking is station 1 is resize/punch out old primer, station 2 case flare, station 3 powder, station 4 seat bullet, station 5 crimp. Priming happens station 2. Am I better off sticking with continuing my handtool priming or is this priming system fairly foolproof?

6. I imagine theres a few minor tweaks that need to be made to the press when you get it for everything to run smooth. How difficult are these tweaks and is it a case of once you get it set, you don't need to touch it again.

7. Maintenence and worn out parts. Pretty much a lube up moving parts kind of deal? What if any are frequent wear parts that would be good to maybe have one or two onhand.

8. This is a later on down the road thought, but does the auto case feeder work as intended? I would want to be comfortable with a progressive before even attempting to use one, but it would be the next logical step after going progressive to speed things up. Seems like that would damn near automate everything except pulling the lever setting a bullet in place.

Anything you have...good or bad about the Hornady LNL AP, please...lets hear it. Trying to dig up as much info as I can before I throw down some cash .
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Old May 31, 2010, 11:39 AM   #2
mongoose33
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1. On the LnLAP spent primers go down a tube you can end in a bucket or do what I have done (found this elsewhere on the web):



2. The LnL bushings will accept anything that is the normal 7/8x14 threads. But what you have to have is a powder measure that is activated by the press.

The LnL powder measure is excellent. Holds a load for me quite consistently. I check every 20th or 30th case just to be sure, and it's never off more than a .1 grain, and the vast majority of the time it's dead on what I want.

3. Yes, if there's no case, it's not dropping powder. The case itself pushes up on the powdermeasure, and as it goes up there's a linkage that causes the rotor to turn, dropping powder. No case, no pushing up, no powder.

4. Powder check die? Not necessary if you check every throw. There are two powder check dies you can get--the Powder Cop from hornady, and the RCBS Lockout Die.

Get the lockout die. It will not allow the press to fully cycle if you have a squib or double charge. In fact, with mine, if the load is off the specified load by very much, the lockout die won't allow the press to cycle.

I like the failsafe approach of the lockout die. The Powder Cop requires me to look at it every time, which strikes me as little different than remembering to peer into the case each time to ensure the powder looks ok.

Yeah, the Lockout Die is more expensive. It's also better. . In fact, I like it so much I bought a second one so I have one set for my 9mm loads and one for .45, so I don't have to change adjustment.

To see how much variation in powder drop mine catches, I set up some cases with different "depths" of powder, simulated by various-length corks driven into the cases. The middle case is the "correct" amount (and I use this as a way to reset the lockout die if I change it to a different setting).

Only the middle one will allow the press to cycle; all the others lock up the lockout die, and the press. (Locking up means it won't complete the upstroke, and you then figure out why).



BTW, you'll need a casemouth expander that works w/ the powder measure. Assuming you use the Hornady (and why wouldn't you--it's great!), I suggest this powder-through expander: http://powderfunnels.com/ It's a little more expensive than the Hornady individual caliber offerings, but you only have to buy it once (works with almost everything), and it includes shipping.

5. The priming system is pretty foolproof. You have to keep it clean, but that's true with anything; it works very well for me. I do not hand-prime when doing handgun rounds on the LnLAP. THat seems to defeat the purpose. Besides, station 1 is for depriming and sizing.

6. How difficult? How good are your mechanical skills? Can you change the oil and filter in a car? Then you're probably good enough.

When you set it up, you start with station 1. Run a few cases through, make sure it works. Then set up station two. Make sure it works (using cases from station 1's run). Bypass station 3 (powder drop) for now, except to make sure the rotor cycles when a case is present. Then using the cases expanded in station two, set up station 4 to make up a few dummy rounds w/ bullets. Then run them through station 5 to crimp.

Then go back and get the powder drop to throw the right charge. I always tap my powder measure 15 or 20 times with the big allen wrench used for changing shellplates; it settles the powder and lets me settle on a consistent drop much faster.

Then run a few through and see how it works.

7. Spare parts? About the only ones I'd recommend are the springs used to keep the cases snug in the shellplate. Get a couple extra. That's about it

Lubing is just a squirt of grease in the zerks from time to time. There isn't much other than that.

8. I don't have the auto case feeder. I can't bring myself to justify the expense. I can load, comfortably, 300+ rounds an hour. I can do upwards of 400 per hour if I push myself a bit. I don't see how I need a case feeder if I can produce that kind of throughput.


I think you'll like the press. Very well made, excellent support from Hornady, the powder measure it great, works wonderfully.
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Old May 31, 2010, 11:55 AM   #3
dlb435
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My reply is bases on the Dillon 550, Lee Pro 1000 and a couple others I have used.
1. Yes, they almost all have a spent primer catch but they work better on some presses than others. Expect some spent primers to end up on the floor.
2. Most presses will allow you to use almost any powder drop.
3. The case actually pushes the powder drop up to activate it. No case, no powder. It does have to be adjusted carefully.
4. No, you don't need a powder check. Most of the time you can see into the case to check for powder. Some loads / cases are easier to look at than others. It's often best to choose a load that will almost fill the case. Easy to see and will overflow if double charged.
5. Most new presses have good priming systems. Dillon is one of the best. No need to prime off the press. You'll like it.
The stage that each step is done depends with the press. The Dillon 550 is this:
A. Decap, resize and prime.
B. powder charge.
C. Bullet seat and crimp (depends on the die set)
D. Crimp (if needed)
round ejects into tray
6. This depends on the press. The Dillon is pretty much set it and forget it. The Lee Pro 1000 takes constant tinkering. Your experiance my vary.
7. You can expect to load over 10,000 rounds before things start to need work. Just keep the press clean and lighty oiled. Usually the first parts that need work are the priming system.
8.Yes, the auto case feeders work great. Only the Lee case feeder is cheap; all of the other ones cost a lot. You only need this if you are loading thousands of rounds a week.
Hope that helps.
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Old May 31, 2010, 06:19 PM   #4
BigJimP
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You've gotten answers to all your techincial questions ...

but I disagree with the consensus so far, that the powder check die isn't necessary - I say it is. I wouldn't buy a new press without it. In theory you can mount a mirror on the body of the press to check the drop / but on a lot of handgun loads min may be 4.1 gr and max 4.4 gr - and there is no way you can visually see if that drop is at the min or max / or at 3.5 or at 5.0 and at least on the Dillon 650 / the powder check die will alert you to that issue. Of course if you get much variation on your drops / its a powder drop issue - something worked loose / or a step you might have missed on the setup , etc ....

But its very good to have a powder check die / or a lockout die. I use the Dillon option on my 650 press - and I like it. I also like the Dillon powder measure - and have no problems with it. A 650 with a case feeder easily loads 1,000 rds an hour / even with the powder check die / I still individually check the 1st 10 cases thru the loader / then maybe 1 of 25 / then maybe 1 of 50 or everytime I dump a new box of primers into the press. Its just a good idea to make sure what the press is doing as you load.

Guys that have the LNL like it / I like the Dillon 650 - and Dillon does a good job helping on setup issues, etc.
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Old June 12, 2010, 11:26 AM   #5
cryogenic419
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OK so I took the plunge...ordered the LNL AP and everything to go with it. The thing that finally got me to go for it...Hornady's demo videos on youtube. I was intimidated by the whole going progressive thing, but the whole "setup one station at a time" thing was like some major breakthrough. I already do that on my single stage so this should be a breeze.

I was going to load up some ammo this weekend on my single stage but decided I'll just save it all for when the new press gets here and is up and running. Should give me plenty of experience with the new one. Still gonna keep the old setup for loading .308 and .500 mag as I rarely shoot those and its nothing to crank out 20 rounds here and there.

Now I just gotta get motivated and build that new bench before it arrives.
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Old June 12, 2010, 12:30 PM   #6
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Congrats, Cryo. Hope it serves you well. Hornady products tend to do that. I have an old 550 and it took awhile to figure it out but if you take it slow and pay attention you'll figure it out.
Good move keeping the single stage. I know the progressives work for rifles but I'm just not in a big hurry when loading hunting or precision target loads. Load development works better on a single stage as well.
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Old June 18, 2010, 04:54 AM   #7
cryogenic419
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Ok so I've got the machine ready to go and I am ready to try loading up some 223. Something that I never considered...case lube. I can lube the cases up like normal before sizing, but where does getting the lube off come into play?
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Old June 18, 2010, 05:24 AM   #8
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lube

Quote:
where does getting the lube off come into play?
Some folk tumble the loaded rounds. I use a bit of lighter fluid and a paper towel to remove the stuff. Using a water based lube would allow you to take it off the cases with a damp paper towel.
Maybe some one has a better method.
Y'know....it's this kind of stuff that has to be done before a cartridge is shootable that always has me skeptical about the "rounds per hour" claim. (ya gotta load those Dillon primer tubes every 100 cases, that takes time even if you do a few beforehand).
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Old June 24, 2010, 08:11 AM   #9
cryogenic419
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So I finally got some ammo loaded up with the new setup. Despite some minor kinks which were easily remedied everything went surprisngly well. As of right now I am only doing 1 at a time, until I become more comfortable with the process. Its way faster than my previous single stage setup, easily cut loading time in half and thats all I ever really wanted, anything beyond that is just a bonus.

Some things I've learned/observed that I will post in case anybody else is on the fence on converting over or has some sort of setup issues.

The DVD that comes with the press says to clean out the powder measure/metering rotor/powder baffle with their One Shot cleaner/dry lube. No arguments there, however I ran into a situation where the powder measure wasn't running as smoothly as it probably should have. It measured powder without issue and accurately and consistant. When the measure would dispense powder it would frequently get stuck in the up position. I initially thought maybe I had done something wrong, so I pulled it all apart and re-cleaned everything and reassembled. Problem still existed so I pulled it apart again, still had the same problem. After some searching I came across a recommendation to use powdered graphite or a pencil to provide lubrication between the measure body and metering rotor. Once I did this any problems I had with the measure getting stuck were gone. Case pushes up and gets it powder charge, once the case drops back down the measure snaps right back down as it should. Also a good idea to rub a dryer sheet inside of the powder hopper and the powder baffle to help eliminate static holding powder agaist the side of the hopper and the surface of the powder baffle.

Every few rounds I had an issue where the brass had an issue entering the sizing die. After grabbing a flashlight and seeing what was causing the holdup I searched and read the pawls needed adjusting. This initially worried me as the first couple of items I ran across had people spending hours trying to set the pawls correctly. I found a great explaination of pawl adjustment.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368171

I know its mentioned in the link and I'll stress it as well, a little turn of the pawl screw can go a long way. I gave the screw maybe 1/16 of a turn at a time, ran a bunch of brass through the cycle until the problem was resolved..

Changing out the primer shuttle is a breeze, however reattaching the spring was a pain at first. Nice little trick I came up with, fishing line. I left the spring attached to the subplate, and pull it off of the shuttle. Feed a piece of line through the spring loop, pull back and put the spring on the shuttle. Let one side of the fishing line go and pull it out of the spring loop.

Hopefully somebody will find this helpful.
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Old June 27, 2010, 06:08 AM   #10
micksis86
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Mongoose those PTX's from powderfunnels.com are they universal or do i need one for say 38 and down and 38 and up?
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Old June 27, 2010, 10:09 AM   #11
cryogenic419
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Their website says 30 cal up to 50 cal. Smallest I have is 9mm and largest I use on that press is 45acp. The thing works like a champ so far and looks like its the only one out there that does what it does for the LNL AP.
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Old June 27, 2010, 01:46 PM   #12
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Congrats on the new press! I have always wanted a progressive press and money is always the factor in not being able to get one! I will just have to save my pennies and hope no one else needs to borrow them! LOL
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Old June 27, 2010, 05:20 PM   #13
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I bought the Lee Loadmaster. If I would have had a bigger budget, I might have gone with the LNL. Looks like nice press. I like that it primed on the down stroke, not when all the dies are bearing a load. Looks like it will give you a better "feel' for the primer.

Congrats.

Make your your bench is solid. Very important will all presses, seems more important with progressives.
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Old June 27, 2010, 09:25 PM   #14
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I visited my brother today and he wants me to load .223 ammo for him. I just bought dies for my AR and I told him all that was involved in loading this ammo and he says "well what do you need to load more faster" I said a progressive press would be perfect for large quantities of ammo like he and I would need for the .223 and he replies "well which one do you want?" I said The Hornady Lock and Load would be great and he says "I will buy you one when we go to Cabela's next week"! Wow I love my brother!
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