Handgun Muzzle Flash - From a Non-Reloader

Mike H · May 29, 2000, 01:50 PM

Guys,

I don't reload but figured this was the place to get an answer to this question.

Why do we still have to endure muzzle flash in our pistols, particularly the hotter loads like 9mm +P and .357 Magnum/Sig. Surely there are fast burning powders (HR38 ?) that can be fully consumed before the bullet leaves the barrel. So why the "tongue of flame" routine. Answers appreciated.

Regards,

Mike H

Art Eatman · May 29, 2000, 05:08 PM

Hey, there's muzzle-flash even with Bullseye.

Seems to me if you experimented with a fairly long barrel and a fast powder, you might wind up with very little flash. I'd bet you wind up with very little velocity, as well...

FWIW, Art

Nukem · May 29, 2000, 05:35 PM

Like Art said. The fast powders aren't compatable with heavy bullets at higher velocities. For example: a .357 158gr jhp would use, say 2400 powder. Slow burning, but it's needed with a heavy slug.
You could in theory load for low flash signature but the chances of having both high performance and low flash aren't very good.

**Mal H** · May 29, 2000, 05:42 PM

I'm not positive, but I have read somewhere in the distant past that the flash is not necessarily unburned powder burning beyond the muzzle. It is the extremely hot gases which yield a gas plasma effect. Some powders burn much hotter and therefore brighter than other powders even though they may reach similar pressures.

Thirties · November 24, 2002, 04:39 PM

If you shoot a .22lr handgun in the failing light of a late afternoon, you'll see a lot of muzzle flash.

yankytrash · November 24, 2002, 05:08 PM

As Mal points out, it's the same effect as a fireman opening a door without checking it. The air on his side of the door seems to explode.

**Mal H** · November 24, 2002, 07:11 PM

Gosh, I had forgotten I said that 2 and a half years ago!

yankytrash · November 24, 2002, 10:15 PM

Damn. I gotta start lookin at the dates man. Had me all freaked out....

C.R.Sam · November 25, 2002, 12:17 AM

It's a firearm...
Ergo....flash of fire.

Sam

ZeusOne · November 26, 2002, 10:27 AM

I imagine one could experiment with different powders and load parameters until the minimum amount of muzzle flash was achieved for an individual gun.

Myself, I load up good ole' Blue Dot in the .357 Mag anytime I want an impressive display of spitzensparken! Whatever the bullet doesn't get, the flames will finish off : )

**Mike Irwin** · November 26, 2002, 11:26 AM

Mal H, you get the Physics Prize!

Muzzle flash can be EITHER unburned powder burning outside the barrel, a plasma effect from the expanding gas, or BOTH.

Flash suppressants put in the powder can help cut this down, but you're really asking for a lot if you hope to totally eliminate flash.

**Mal H** · November 26, 2002, 11:57 AM

Thanks Mike! That's mighty nobel of you to mention it.

[Caution - thread veer coming]
Did you notice that three locals won the NP this year? A George Mason prof for economics (second one for GMU); a VA Commonwealth U prof for chemistry; and a member of Associated Universities in DC for physics. Very cool.

john kilgore · November 27, 2002, 02:26 PM

MORE, FOR WHAT ITS WORTH............

The flash is a result of the excess oxidizer (given off by the powder during the combustion process) igniting when exposed to the atmosphere. This also results in the "jet" effect that increases recoil, or decreases recoil when directed through a compensator.

If you want to minimize the observed flash, -as you stated you are NOT a reloader?: Use the various loadings intended for Law Enforcement use.
Several years back, Winchester worked on this problem and applied it to the "Silver Tip" ammo line.
They claim to use some type of deterent coating on the powders. The results are dramatic.
The old Super-X .357mag. 125gr JHP's I was issued created a "fire-ball" the size of a Basket ball when fired from a 4" bbl. revolver and was blinding at night, a significant problem for law enforcement as most shoot-outs are at night and at very close range.
In the mid '90's, I was issued the "New and improved" 145gr Silver Tips. The flash from these are less than most 148gr factory wadcutter loads, though velocity is only slighty less than the 125's. (1450fps w/125's vs 1350fps w/145's)
The same applies to the current .40S&W. The Rem UMC 180gr "yellow box" loads and the Federal USA produce substantially more flash than the Winchester Ranger "Talon" ammo currently produced, at least it did the last time I qualified at night back last June.
Try obtaining/using either the Silver Tip or RANGER SXT ammo or equivalent from Federal (Hydro-shok) or Speer (Lawman). These should give reduced flash.

Mike H · November 28, 2002, 12:24 AM

As the originator of this thread I'm now even more interested in how someone picked it up from over 2 years ago

Way to go Thirties.

Mike H

Gewehr98 · November 28, 2002, 01:12 PM

the "Search" function!

(Only because I accidentally did that once, too...)

buford1 · December 1, 2002, 06:12 AM

It dont work like one would think. My AMT 30 carbine pistol blows out a flame approx 1/1/2 ft flame about 8" dia. I also own the LONE EAGLE single shot pistol. IN 308 WIN. Got the idea to load some 308 with the slowest burning powder I could find in my book, figured the flame coming out of that barrel would be something to see. Turned out to be a real disapointment not much muzzle flash at all. I shoot 454 down to 22 in hand guns nothing flames like that 30 carbine auto loader..I really like all that muzzle flash.

November 24, 2002, 05:08 PM	#6
yankytrash Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Farnham, Va Posts: 2,183	As Mal points out, it's the same effect as a fireman opening a door without checking it. The air on his side of the door seems to explode. __________________ Right turn, Clyde.

November 24, 2002, 10:15 PM	#8
yankytrash Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Farnham, Va Posts: 2,183	Damn. I gotta start lookin at the dates man. Had me all freaked out.... __________________ Right turn, Clyde.

November 26, 2002, 11:26 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Mal H, you get the Physics Prize! Muzzle flash can be EITHER unburned powder burning outside the barrel, a plasma effect from the expanding gas, or BOTH. Flash suppressants put in the powder can help cut this down, but you're really asking for a lot if you hope to totally eliminate flash. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 27, 2002, 02:26 PM	#13
john kilgore Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2002 Location: east georgia Posts: 125	MORE, FOR WHAT ITS WORTH............ The flash is a result of the excess oxidizer (given off by the powder during the combustion process) igniting when exposed to the atmosphere. This also results in the "jet" effect that increases recoil, or decreases recoil when directed through a compensator. If you want to minimize the observed flash, -as you stated you are NOT a reloader?: Use the various loadings intended for Law Enforcement use. Several years back, Winchester worked on this problem and applied it to the "Silver Tip" ammo line. They claim to use some type of deterent coating on the powders. The results are dramatic. The old Super-X .357mag. 125gr JHP's I was issued created a "fire-ball" the size of a Basket ball when fired from a 4" bbl. revolver and was blinding at night, a significant problem for law enforcement as most shoot-outs are at night and at very close range. In the mid '90's, I was issued the "New and improved" 145gr Silver Tips. The flash from these are less than most 148gr factory wadcutter loads, though velocity is only slighty less than the 125's. (1450fps w/125's vs 1350fps w/145's) The same applies to the current .40S&W. The Rem UMC 180gr "yellow box" loads and the Federal USA produce substantially more flash than the Winchester Ranger "Talon" ammo currently produced, at least it did the last time I qualified at night back last June. Try obtaining/using either the Silver Tip or RANGER SXT ammo or equivalent from Federal (Hydro-shok) or Speer (Lawman). These should give reduced flash. __________________ "There is no such thing as a second place winner in a gunfight" Bill Jordan

November 28, 2002, 01:12 PM	#15
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	I'm guessing it was diligent use of... the "Search" function! (Only because I accidentally did that once, too...) __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

May 29, 2000, 01:50 PM	#1
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	Guys, I don't reload but figured this was the place to get an answer to this question. Why do we still have to endure muzzle flash in our pistols, particularly the hotter loads like 9mm +P and .357 Magnum/Sig. Surely there are fast burning powders (HR38 ?) that can be fully consumed before the bullet leaves the barrel. So why the "tongue of flame" routine. Answers appreciated. Regards, Mike H

May 29, 2000, 05:08 PM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Hey, there's muzzle-flash even with Bullseye. Seems to me if you experimented with a fairly long barrel and a fast powder, you might wind up with very little flash. I'd bet you wind up with very little velocity, as well... FWIW, Art

May 29, 2000, 05:35 PM	#3
Nukem Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Posts: 709	Like Art said. The fast powders aren't compatable with heavy bullets at higher velocities. For example: a .357 158gr jhp would use, say 2400 powder. Slow burning, but it's needed with a heavy slug. You could in theory load for low flash signature but the chances of having both high performance and low flash aren't very good.

May 29, 2000, 05:42 PM	#4
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	I'm not positive, but I have read somewhere in the distant past that the flash is not necessarily unburned powder burning beyond the muzzle. It is the extremely hot gases which yield a gas plasma effect. Some powders burn much hotter and therefore brighter than other powders even though they may reach similar pressures.

November 24, 2002, 04:39 PM	#5
Thirties Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2001 Location: Where the Red Sox meet the Black Bears Posts: 561	If you shoot a .22lr handgun in the failing light of a late afternoon, you'll see a lot of muzzle flash.

November 24, 2002, 07:11 PM	#7
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	Gosh, I had forgotten I said that 2 and a half years ago!

November 25, 2002, 12:17 AM	#9
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	It's a firearm... Ergo....flash of fire. Sam

November 26, 2002, 10:27 AM	#10
ZeusOne Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2000 Location: The hills of Western MD Posts: 237	I imagine one could experiment with different powders and load parameters until the minimum amount of muzzle flash was achieved for an individual gun. Myself, I load up good ole' Blue Dot in the .357 Mag anytime I want an impressive display of spitzensparken! Whatever the bullet doesn't get, the flames will finish off : )

November 26, 2002, 11:57 AM	#12
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	Thanks Mike! That's mighty nobel of you to mention it. [Caution - thread veer coming] Did you notice that three locals won the NP this year? A George Mason prof for economics (second one for GMU); a VA Commonwealth U prof for chemistry; and a member of Associated Universities in DC for physics. Very cool.

November 28, 2002, 12:24 AM	#14
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	As the originator of this thread I'm now even more interested in how someone picked it up from over 2 years ago Way to go Thirties. Mike H

December 1, 2002, 06:12 AM	#16
buford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2002 Location: long beach.CA Posts: 116	It dont work like one would think. My AMT 30 carbine pistol blows out a flame approx 1/1/2 ft flame about 8" dia. I also own the LONE EAGLE single shot pistol. IN 308 WIN. Got the idea to load some 308 with the slowest burning powder I could find in my book, figured the flame coming out of that barrel would be something to see. Turned out to be a real disapointment not much muzzle flash at all. I shoot 454 down to 22 in hand guns nothing flames like that 30 carbine auto loader..I really like all that muzzle flash.

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