Gunsite CATP Review

Denny Hansen · May 30, 2004, 09:49 AM

Last week I attend the Carbine Advanced Tactical Problems (CATP course at Gunsite. Range Master was Pat Rogers and coaches were Ben Lenett and Tim Lau.

I used a pre-ban Olympic Arms carbine equipped with an EOTech 512 and SureFire X200 on the bottom rail with a vertical foregrip. Pistol was a Kimber TLE/RL, also equipped with the X200.

The first day was spent on review of gunhandling procedures. The MEU (SOC) carbine and pistol courses were fired each morning. This is a great course of fire as it incorporates many shooting positions, shooting on the move and transitioning to the secondary weapon.

The remainder of each day was spent on numerous runs through outdoor and indoor simulators using two-man team tactics. Since there were an uneven number of students, I lucked out and my “partner” and I made several three-man runs, which added to the complexity of the problems. Having more guns up front is a good thing, but also pushes the student to be even more aware than normal about safety issues, muzzle awareness, etc.

The course required 660 rounds of .223 ball and 460 rounds of .223 frangible, though I fired about 800 and 300 respectively. Also required are 150 rounds of pistol ball and 50 rounds of pistol frang. I used about 200 rounds of ball, but only ended up firing one round of frangible pistol ammo. This last due to 1) my carbine never malfunctioned on a simulator run and 2) I was able to tac load it and didn’t need to transition to the handgun.

The final day was spent on numerous force-on-force exercises using Simunitions. The class rotated between good guy and bad guy roles so we could get a good look at situations from both sides of the muzzle.

I plan to write a complete review of the course in an upcoming issue of S.W.A.T.

I highly recommend Gunsite’s CATP course. Pat is a superb instructor, and his coaches are always top notch as well.

Denny

Jamie Young · May 31, 2004, 01:32 PM

Denny still goes to school?

Just out of curiousity.....

What kind of situations did you have to use the frangible ammo? This may be a dumb question, but is that frangible ammo for CQ situations or is it just for safety of the shooter?

Denny Hansen · May 31, 2004, 02:14 PM

Actually, this was school number six this year for me. Hey, I may be high-drag, low-speed, but I won't turn fifty until December!

Frangible ammunition is used for a couple of reasons, the main one being that it doesn't tear up steel targets and bullet traps like ball will. Safety from splash-back, of course, is also a concern especially at CQB ranges. Lastly, it makes for a friendly non-toxic, "green" environment.

Denny

UnknownSailor · June 1, 2004, 04:13 PM

I was reading this thread, and got to wondering: Any word on who is instructing 223 in September? Am I lucky enough (

)to draw Pat?

I suppose I could email Gunsite and ask, but still....

Denny Hansen · June 1, 2004, 05:16 PM

IIRC, Pat will be there for the 223, 556 and ATP. If things go as usual, the Sept. 223 will be large enough to split into two classes. Nothing wrong with sending an email with a request to be in Pat's class if possible.

Denny

Pat Rogers · June 1, 2004, 08:06 PM

Sailor,
I don't know if "lucky" is the proper word....

Denny is correct, i am scheduled to teach that class, and generally they overfill. Requesting that you be included in my class is a good idea, if that is what you want.
Please understand that my schedule (that is, my real life one) changes pretty rapidly, so what is now may not be tomorrow.
Hope to see you there- bring extra ammo.

KSFreeman · June 2, 2004, 09:24 PM

Where's the drooling smilie thingy?

UnknownSailor · June 2, 2004, 10:42 PM

Outstanding!

I am taking this class because my training thus far while in active duty WRT rifles has been, shall we say, on the slim/none side of the chart. What trigger time I have on the Government's dime has been stand still, punch paper, follow range commands exactly or you're gone, and I've never shot better than Sharpshooter.

So, basically, I'm buying on my own dime that which I feel I should be getting for free...

What better place than Gunsite, I say, and who better than Pat?

Now I'm really looking at the calender saying, "Are we home yet?"

I will fire off an email requesting to be in Pat's class, should they split.

Drooling smiley, indeed.

UnknownSailor · June 4, 2004, 06:59 PM

Got a reply from the student coordinator. She had made a note of my request on my application. See ya in September, Pat, if your schedule doesn't change.

G3 · June 6, 2004, 08:48 PM

Could someone post or show a link to the MEU (SOC) Qualification course?

Thank you.

May 30, 2004, 09:49 AM	#1
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Gunsite CATP Review Last week I attend the Carbine Advanced Tactical Problems (CATP course at Gunsite. Range Master was Pat Rogers and coaches were Ben Lenett and Tim Lau. I used a pre-ban Olympic Arms carbine equipped with an EOTech 512 and SureFire X200 on the bottom rail with a vertical foregrip. Pistol was a Kimber TLE/RL, also equipped with the X200. The first day was spent on review of gunhandling procedures. The MEU (SOC) carbine and pistol courses were fired each morning. This is a great course of fire as it incorporates many shooting positions, shooting on the move and transitioning to the secondary weapon. The remainder of each day was spent on numerous runs through outdoor and indoor simulators using two-man team tactics. Since there were an uneven number of students, I lucked out and my “partner” and I made several three-man runs, which added to the complexity of the problems. Having more guns up front is a good thing, but also pushes the student to be even more aware than normal about safety issues, muzzle awareness, etc. The course required 660 rounds of .223 ball and 460 rounds of .223 frangible, though I fired about 800 and 300 respectively. Also required are 150 rounds of pistol ball and 50 rounds of pistol frang. I used about 200 rounds of ball, but only ended up firing one round of frangible pistol ammo. This last due to 1) my carbine never malfunctioned on a simulator run and 2) I was able to tac load it and didn’t need to transition to the handgun. The final day was spent on numerous force-on-force exercises using Simunitions. The class rotated between good guy and bad guy roles so we could get a good look at situations from both sides of the muzzle. I plan to write a complete review of the course in an upcoming issue of S.W.A.T. I highly recommend Gunsite’s CATP course. Pat is a superb instructor, and his coaches are always top notch as well. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

May 31, 2004, 01:32 PM	#2
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	Denny still goes to school? Just out of curiousity..... What kind of situations did you have to use the frangible ammo? This may be a dumb question, but is that frangible ammo for CQ situations or is it just for safety of the shooter? __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

May 31, 2004, 02:14 PM	#3
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Actually, this was school number six this year for me. Hey, I may be high-drag, low-speed, but I won't turn fifty until December! Frangible ammunition is used for a couple of reasons, the main one being that it doesn't tear up steel targets and bullet traps like ball will. Safety from splash-back, of course, is also a concern especially at CQB ranges. Lastly, it makes for a friendly non-toxic, "green" environment. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

June 1, 2004, 05:16 PM	#5
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	IIRC, Pat will be there for the 223, 556 and ATP. If things go as usual, the Sept. 223 will be large enough to split into two classes. Nothing wrong with sending an email with a request to be in Pat's class if possible. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

June 1, 2004, 08:06 PM	#6
Pat Rogers Member in memoriam Join Date: July 31, 2001 Posts: 303	Sailor, I don't know if "lucky" is the proper word.... Denny is correct, i am scheduled to teach that class, and generally they overfill. Requesting that you be included in my class is a good idea, if that is what you want. Please understand that my schedule (that is, my real life one) changes pretty rapidly, so what is now may not be tomorrow. Hope to see you there- bring extra ammo. __________________ S/F Pat sends www.eagtactical.com

June 1, 2004, 04:13 PM	#4
UnknownSailor Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2001 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 369	I was reading this thread, and got to wondering: Any word on who is instructing 223 in September? Am I lucky enough ( )to draw Pat? I suppose I could email Gunsite and ask, but still....

June 2, 2004, 09:24 PM	#7
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Where's the drooling smilie thingy? __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

June 2, 2004, 10:42 PM	#8
UnknownSailor Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2001 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 369	Outstanding! I am taking this class because my training thus far while in active duty WRT rifles has been, shall we say, on the slim/none side of the chart. What trigger time I have on the Government's dime has been stand still, punch paper, follow range commands exactly or you're gone, and I've never shot better than Sharpshooter. So, basically, I'm buying on my own dime that which I feel I should be getting for free... What better place than Gunsite, I say, and who better than Pat? Now I'm really looking at the calender saying, "Are we home yet?" I will fire off an email requesting to be in Pat's class, should they split. Drooling smiley, indeed.

June 4, 2004, 06:59 PM	#9
UnknownSailor Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2001 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 369	Got a reply from the student coordinator. She had made a note of my request on my application. See ya in September, Pat, if your schedule doesn't change.

June 6, 2004, 08:48 PM	#10
G3 Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2000 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 138	. Could someone post or show a link to the MEU (SOC) Qualification course? Thank you.