old shotgun too good to mess with ???

Magnum Wheel Man · August 15, 2009, 12:15 PM

so a while back I bought a couple of old side by sides, with the intention of cutting one to a coach gun, & the "better one" to use for a double rifle project ( 577 Snider double rifle )

I bought one & put one on layaway... the 1st one I brought home was a good old Husqvarna, & the barrels have now been trimmed to 23.5" ( there was a pretty good ding in one of the barrels at 23.5" )... I had every intention of using this one for the double rifle, as the other was labeled ( at Cabelas ) as Belgian, & my builder ( with out actually seeing it, & from description only ) said it was likely a cheap import made for Sears / Gambles / Montgomery Wards, etc. & said it may be fine for black powder "coach loads"...

so I pretty much lost interest, in the 2nd gun if it was only good for black powder coach gun loads, & I concentrated on going ahead with the Husky for the double rifle... but I finally picked up the 2nd gun at the limit of their lay away plan...

hmmm... turns out the shotgun was improperly labeled, not Belgian, but Italian... & has some features found only on premium shotguns, not usually found on cheap imports...

the pics don't do it justice... butt here they are...

it's kinda hard to see, but the locks are key hole inletted into the sides of the reciever ( my builder has never see this before )

the Greenier lock has a "dolls head" on it, & there are "fences" ( I think that what they call it when the reciever is flaired on each side & the barrel block is relieved to fit snugly in on each side ??? )

Magnum Wheel Man · August 15, 2009, 12:19 PM

2 locking lugs under

as you can see it's engraved, & has a star grip cap

my builder thinks it' worth at least twice what I paid for it, as they had it marked as a cheap Belgian import

is this a cheap Italian import, or too nice a shotgun to mess with ??? I'd really like to use it as the base for my double rifle, since it's a fancier grade than the pretty plain Jane Husky I also bought ???

bswiv · August 15, 2009, 12:45 PM

Try posting the question here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...Board=1&page=1

These guys know doubles.......

And if you do the conversion get the smith to take a lot of pictures and then post them for the rest of us to enjoy.

I've had two conversions done, one a 20 ga Ruger Red Label to 45-70 and the other a 16ga FN ( Fabrique Nationale ) sidelock to a rifled 20ga.

I should have listened to the smith on the second one and used a newer gun for the 20ga as it turned out to be a pile of work for him to get it right. The Ruger on the other hand is just about perfect.

Magnum Wheel Man · August 15, 2009, 12:55 PM

thanks for the link... I've book marked it....

BTW.... anyone know the name of the book that was published & supposed to be the "bible" for building double rifles out of shotguns ???

oneounceload · August 15, 2009, 01:04 PM

What name, markings etc., are on the gun and on the barrels and flats?

bswiv · August 15, 2009, 01:19 PM

"Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions" or something close to that.

Ellis Brown wrote it.

You know that if you convert to rifled 20ga you have the option of using saboted loads, such as the Hornady, or loading the Lyman slug in regular shells or of getting BRASS 20ga shells and loading full bore slugs.

Might be easier and cheeper to shoot.............?

Magnum Wheel Man · August 15, 2009, 04:11 PM

there is no "name" or "brand" on the gun... but it's loaded with proofs & stamps... I'll try taking a pic, but my local builder has several refeence books & determined it was Italian, rather than Belgian...

lets see if I can get a good pic...

nope... that didn't work so well...

I don't know if I've even seen this many stamps on a gun... I think my builder said it was made in the late 40's & in Italy...

It does say "Royal Special" with a crown before royal on the center bridge just before the rebounding firing pins

zippy13 · August 16, 2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

...locks are key hole inletted into the sides of the reciever...

Yours appears to be a variety of sidelock gun, are the springs, sear and hammer mounded on the detachable plates? Some contemporary guns, of the highest grade, are done with sidelocks to provide more space for engraving. Below is a AyA internal hammer 20-ga with the sideplate removed, is yours similar to this system?

Magnum Wheel Man · August 16, 2009, 09:24 AM

I've not had the locks off either gun yet, but both are side lock ( as opposed to box lock ??? ) shotguns...

when I mention key hole inletted... I'm refering to around the screw in the side ( you can see it better in the 2nd side pic ) there is what loks like a key hole slot cut into the reciever on each side, & a matching shape with the screw hole in the middle that inlets into the reciever on each side...

my Husky is also a side lock, but the locks just mate nicely to the reciever without the complexity of build that he key hole inletting sure must have been

zippy13 · August 16, 2009, 10:50 AM

Just a wild guess...
It appears your gun's receiver is engraved with game scenes; but, the plates aren't. This may have been a standard practice; however it might indicate that the plates aren't original. Have you noted any part numbers? They might just be lightly scratched to keep the sub-assembly parts altogether. If the receiver, barrel, and forend metal have matching numbers, you might be interesting to see if the side plates have the same number.

Magnum Wheel Man · August 16, 2009, 12:23 PM

the plates were made for the reciever... the key hole inletting insures that...

the fore arm, barrels & reciever are all matcing numbers... since the screw heads are also engraved, I don't think they have ever been removed... so I'm really hesitant to do it...

I'll paint a pic & outline the keyholing, since I must not be explaining it correctly...

the red outline is the rough meeting surface of the locks & the reciever ( sorry, crudely done quickly in paint ) hope this helps explain what I mean... this is something my local builder has never seen before... but he's admittedly a rifle guy, & not so much a shotgun guy...

zippy13 · August 16, 2009, 08:06 PM

I understand what you mean about the key-hole. Who ever made it in the first place probably had the set-up necessary to make duplicates. I'm surprised no one has recognized its maker yet. Back to your original question, I don't think you want to be using this one for a conversion until you learn a lot more about it.

Good luck!

Magnum Wheel Man · August 16, 2009, 08:56 PM

I,ll try chalking the proofs & stamps & retake the pic...

Magnum Wheel Man · August 16, 2009, 09:10 PM

This help anyone ???

1st on the top is a lion

August 15, 2009, 12:55 PM	#4
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	thanks for the link... I've book marked it.... BTW.... anyone know the name of the book that was published & supposed to be the "bible" for building double rifles out of shotguns ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

August 16, 2009, 09:24 AM	#9
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I've not had the locks off either gun yet, but both are side lock ( as opposed to box lock ??? ) shotguns... when I mention key hole inletted... I'm refering to around the screw in the side ( you can see it better in the 2nd side pic ) there is what loks like a key hole slot cut into the reciever on each side, & a matching shape with the screw hole in the middle that inlets into the reciever on each side... my Husky is also a side lock, but the locks just mate nicely to the reciever without the complexity of build that he key hole inletting sure must have been __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

August 16, 2009, 08:56 PM	#13
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I,ll try chalking the proofs & stamps & retake the pic... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

August 15, 2009, 12:45 PM	#3
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Try posting the question here: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...Board=1&page=1 These guys know doubles....... And if you do the conversion get the smith to take a lot of pictures and then post them for the rest of us to enjoy. I've had two conversions done, one a 20 ga Ruger Red Label to 45-70 and the other a 16ga FN ( Fabrique Nationale ) sidelock to a rifled 20ga. I should have listened to the smith on the second one and used a newer gun for the 20ga as it turned out to be a pile of work for him to get it right. The Ruger on the other hand is just about perfect.

August 15, 2009, 01:04 PM	#5
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	What name, markings etc., are on the gun and on the barrels and flats?

August 15, 2009, 01:19 PM	#6
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	"Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions" or something close to that. Ellis Brown wrote it. You know that if you convert to rifled 20ga you have the option of using saboted loads, such as the Hornady, or loading the Lyman slug in regular shells or of getting BRASS 20ga shells and loading full bore slugs. Might be easier and cheeper to shoot.............?

August 16, 2009, 10:50 AM	#10
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Just a wild guess... It appears your gun's receiver is engraved with game scenes; but, the plates aren't. This may have been a standard practice; however it might indicate that the plates aren't original. Have you noted any part numbers? They might just be lightly scratched to keep the sub-assembly parts altogether. If the receiver, barrel, and forend metal have matching numbers, you might be interesting to see if the side plates have the same number.

August 16, 2009, 08:06 PM	#12
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	I understand what you mean about the key-hole. Who ever made it in the first place probably had the set-up necessary to make duplicates. I'm surprised no one has recognized its maker yet. Back to your original question, I don't think you want to be using this one for a conversion until you learn a lot more about it. Good luck!