Real Life - Boxed in.

[ZeSpectre]

Yup, here we are again with ANOTHER real world scenario. At this point I'm looking upwards and saying "okay, enough, let someone else have a bit of experience okay!?!"

Sunday evening. I'm coming home from Wal-Mart just after it has started to get dark and as I'm pulling into the carport I notice some guy walking down on the golf course past my house. This is, of course, not unusual at all, a lot of people shortcut over that section of the course.

I pull in, shut the vehicle off, and get out. I look around (as is my habit) and see nothing so I move to the back and open the rear door and start to reach in for the groceries when I see movement out of the corner of my eye so I straighten up to see what it is.

That same guy from the golf course is now just off the back corner of the jeep looking at me and moving towards me.

Here I am, just after dark, nobody else around that I can see or hear, boxed in between the jeep and the wall of the carport, with the car door open behind me so I can't even freakin' back up and this big, really scruffy looking, guy closing in on me with his hands out.

So I somewhat automatically go into "weapon retention" mode and turn my "gun hip" away from the guy and raise my opposite hand in a "stop there" gesture. At the same time my "gun" hand flips my cover out of the way and takes a grip on my sidearm (I have not drawn the weapon). Then in my best "command voice" I tell him "STOP, YOU NEED TO BACK UP RIGHT NOW!"

Meanwhile, my brain can't seem to decide if I need to finish a draw-down on the guy or try to crawl into the back seat of the jeep (a Cherokee SUV) and lock the door before he can get to me (the momentary mental paralysis probably lasted a split second but felt like an hour and was NOT a fun time )

FORTUNATELY he stopped and backed right up (I don't know if he saw the gun or not) and started saying "sorry, sorry man, I just saw your big yard and wanted to let you know that I'm for hire to rake leaves or clean gutters or anything like that".

I just looked at him and said "I do all that myself and it's way too late for a sales pitch so you need to leave...now!" and he said "sorry to bother you", turned away and wandered back down the golf course.

Pause here for several minutes to let the adrenaline wash out and make sure he has actually left the area.

So shortly after he was gone the little old lady across the street pokes her head out of her front door and asks me if everything is okay (she heard me yell and was watching everything). I say yes and she tells me that same guy was over in her yard earlier and gave her the same "handyman" line.

So we call the cops and we both give information and details and then I spent the next hour or so feeling kind-of sick from the after-event reaction.

Below is a drawing of how I was boxed in. (sorry for the crude drawing).



I think from here on out I BACK the vehicle into the carport!

As always critique and commentary accepted. When we review this stuff we all learn something.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I say very well done.

Originally Posted by ZeSpectre

I think from here on out I BACK the vehicle into the carport!

That's an excellent idea. It would not only keep you from being "cornered" but would allow for you to open the doors for concealment as you retreat . Pretty much tells you the other guys intentions also, if you're opening doors and backing away and he's brazen enough to advance and close them.

[hogdogs]

Had you backed in, the drifter may have used the open doors as concealment to be even closer when you noticed him...
Derned if you do and derned if you don't... SA is what made you safest...
Brent

[Skans]

With gun, I would have done the same thing you did. Without a gun, or gun not immediately accessible, I would have:

1. Shut the middle door to the car;
2. get into the driver's seat,
3. Start engine and back up.

I don't like being cornered, and I'll use my car to escape if necessary.

[Mello2u]

Nicely done.

[scottaschultz]

I will probably get banned from this forum, but I don't care...

I don't understand how some of you people can live your life from one day to the next without being on massive doses of Valium or some sort of tranquilizer? For some people, it seems that EVERY situation where you encounter a "stranger" approaching you is someone meaning to do you harm.

Here is some guy who just wants to rake your leaves or clean your gutters and you resort to using your best "command voice" to get him to go away while going into "weapon retention" mode, but yet the little old lady across the street managed to dispatch this horrible "BG" without using any of those tactics.

Then everyone here congratulates you for surviving this close call with death and praises your level-headed thinking in times of a crisis. You didn't survive a brush with death! You told some poor guy who was apparently down on his luck to go away and he did.

Seriously, what on earth did you do before you started carrying a gun? Were you always that scared out of your wits every time someone approached you to the point where you believed they intended to do you bodily harm?

Scott

[koolminx]

I am not as strongly opinionated as Scott, but I do follow his sentiment slightly...

What kind of physical attitude did this fella have with his hands in front of him as he approached you? Hunched and ready to grab, or supplicating as in showing you his hands were empty? Or simply shrugging in order to give precedence of beginning a sentence?



..

[MLeake]

On the one hand, I'd be unhappy to have somebody I didn't know approach me, after dark, on my property.

On the other hand, there are legitimate reasons why somebody might do so. Looking for a place, needing directions, etc.

But the after dark piece, combined with the guy approaching to within a car length before getting a verbal ok, showed poor judgement on the part of the unknown guy.

Telling him to leave wasn't out of line. Drawing on him at that point would have been excessive.

[Skans]

The bottom line. Don't approach me at my house after dark claiming to want to rake my leaves and corner me. Even if I'm not armed (which I probably wouldn't be just out and about on my own property), I'm going to get VERY aggressive with such a person.

Unless it's Halloween and you are under the age of 14, I don't take kindly to folks bothering me on my property looking for a handout. If I was into that sort of thing, I would have joined a hippy commune long ago and lived off of the money that I could brainwash new recruits to extort from their rich mommies and daddies.

[rantingredneck]

ZeSpectre,

I've posted this story before, but I had a similar experience years ago in a parking deck at a large mall in Durham, NC. A panhandler slipped up behind me as I was putting packages in my car. He startled when I turned and saw him approaching so I dropped into a defensive crouch with my hand on my weapon (which was under my seat, mall was posted no-carry). Started running a line of BS about being robbed in that same parking lot the week prior and needing money to get back to VA. Saying "It happened right over there" and pointing behind me like he was trying to get me to turn away again. Similar thing, command voice to "Stop and return to your vehicle" and he did. I think it dawned on him that my hand was out of sight for a reason. Thing is, his was too......

Keep your experience in mind when you are parking in public lots too. You can get boxed in between your vehicle, open door and neighboring vehicle too. I go out of my way to give myself an out when I'm parking now.

[comn-cents]

I say good job, glad it didn't escalate. Real business people do business during the day not when it's dark out. I would have drawn and had gun in hand. I guess that some here don't pay attention to people "just looking to do good" "rake leaves" ya right. Or it's the drug addict just looking for his next fix, whether it be your wallet or your car or something in your house. Paranoid I think not, just not naive. Obviously your neighbor wasn’t far off track either.

[ZeSpectre]

I don't understand how some of you people can live your life from one day to the next without being on massive doses of Valium or some sort of tranquilizer? For some people, it seems that EVERY situation where you encounter a "stranger" approaching you is someone meaning to do you harm.

scottaschultz,
Distilled from the blanket statements you ask a few reasonable questions. I'll skip the confrontational rhetoric and try to address the actual question(s).

This guy was a complete stranger. Nobody I knew and nobody I'd ever seen in my neighborhood. He was a big man (over 6ft) and very unkempt in appearance. In addition, this guy made no sound, made no attempt to announce his presence, and was nearly at the corner of my vehicle (less than 8 ft away from me and closing) when I saw him. He only backed off and spoke to me -after- I addressed him and told him to back off. If you don't think that someone sneaking up on a complete stranger like that, in low light/dark, is suspicious then I don't know what to say.

Once this guy was addressed suddenly he had a story about offering to rake leaves and/or clean gutters. Aside from the fact that my house has "gutter helmets" and there aren't any leaves to speak of in the lawn yet, this is -precisely- the sort of BS excuse I used to run into all the time when I worked LE.

A little old lady (and three of her Sunday-cards playing friends) telling the guy to "go away" or they'd call the police from behind a secured door is just a little different from being basically cornered in a face-to-face with someone.

As for if the situation was life threatening or not nobody can say for certain, but from where I was standing it fit the classic set-up pattern for an assault/mugging so I played it safe (safe for me that is).

If all of this leads you to believe that I'm a fearful, panicky type of person who is prone to overreaction then I doubt anything I say will change your mind.

[Dannyl]

ZeSpectre, I think you handled it fine.

In South Africa people are mugged, hijacked, kidnapped, murdered (sometimes all 4 options) every single day.
In most instances, the perpetrators use whatever ruses they can find to get close enough, many of them dress well and are reasonably well groomed.

Is it nice or ideal to have to treat strangers approaching you with suspicion?
No, it is not nice or ideal. but the consequences of letting the wrong person get too close are far worse. I think that if one had to check, you would find that most victims of violent crime had not suspected that something was seriously wrong until it was too late.

Brgds,

Danny

[JerseyDrez]

Your comment about it being too late for any sales pitch gave me a good chuckle.

You seemed to keep your cool for it all happening very fast. Glad everything turned out ok..

[Slopemeno]

Keep a plan B in mind. Nobody says you MUST pull into your diveway. I think in this situation your senses were telling you something was out of place before you parked.

Perhaps something you could do is drive by- turn around and keep your headlights shining down the street, and see what he's up to.

I have to agree that this scenario would have made me very uneasy, and yes, the "lurking" style of his approach made me take notice.

[markj]

I am with Scott on this, you younger guys seem to startle easy. We would have a lot of fun with you all here where I live

look a small little 6 ft guy

What would you do if you was skinnin a deer and noticed eyes staring at ya from the dark?

wish I could film some of these "scenarios"

[Southern Rebel]

Per Markj,

you younger guys seem to startle easy. We would have a lot of fun with you all here where I live

Mark, in my area where I live, your little fun might very well be short-lived, in more ways than one. People who live in crime areas don't tend to have a sense of humor for that sort of "fun".

I won't say their reactions would necessarily be correct, but kinda like The Duke said in the movie, "My fault, your fault, nobody's fault,..............

[MLeake]

... that was Richard Boone, former star of "Paladin."

Boone played the lead kidnapper.

Cheers,

M

[scottaschultz]

But you guys are congratulating him like he is a war hero returning home from Afghanistan after single-handedly rescuing his platoon from an attack by a group of rebel Taliban insurgents.

I say very well done.

SA is what made you safest...

Nicely done.

I say good job, glad it didn't escalate.

ZeSpectre, I think you handled it fine.

You seemed to keep your cool for it all happening very fast. Glad everything turned out ok..

A scruffy looking vagabond came up to his house looking for a handout and he told him to go away. The ONLY place anyone would make a fuss over this is on TFL!

Scott

[MLeake]

... what would our responses have been if the story had been about how he didn't react quickly to the large, scruffy man closing on him in the dark on his property, and he got punched in the head and had his car keys and car taken?

When was the last time you had an unkempt stranger approach you at night, on your property?

I grew up in an area where we left doors unlocked, and were friendly with the neighbors. However, that was a small town, and everybody knew everybody. Strangers would have drawn immediate attention.

Since then, I've lived in a mix of neighborhoods, none exactly scary. Yet, I had an instance where a bad actor followed my not-then-ex back to our place, which was a 2600sq ft house in an upper middle class suburb (not exactly a dangerous neighborhood, normally), and a couple instances where the sheriff's gang unit responded to goings on just across the street, when I lived in a mostly student neighborhood near UF. In the instance with the bad actor following the ex, two things foiled his apparent intentions: the presence at the home of a Rottweiler/Shepherd mix, and the fact that the intended victim was armed with a 9mm. Can you say, shorts fabric left on fence during the rapid retreat?

Like I indicated in my earlier post, in the OP's example, drawing might have been an overreaction, but telling the guy to back off was appropriate. I've politely asked panhandlers in similar scenarios to back off, and they've complied, to date. The question is did they back off because I was polite and so they decided to be, or because I was their size or bigger and presented a controlled affect? The other question is, if they had not backed off, would I or would I not have been justified in taking physical action to back them off?

If I'd have been justified to use a shove or a punch to back them off, would a smaller man or a woman or an elderly person have been justified in using a weapon?

Etc....

Can you come up with ANY justification for a stranger approaching, on private property, to within 8 feet of a person, after dark, without first announcing himself and asking permission? If so, please let us know.

[cracked91]

Okay, I can sympathize with feeling threatened from being boxed in. But in all honesty alot of you guys remind me of Dwight Schrute. "Wanted to rake leaves for money, psh yeah right, more like wanted to pickpocket me and go buy cocaine!" And command voices can be great, but there are ways to talk to people without screaming at them when they more than likely don't have any bad intentions. I think you guys might come off a little odd to other people who notice your behavior.

[Chuck24]

I think you did fine. I have been in a similar situation. My internal alarms were going off like crazy because I knew this guy was up to no good. I did just what you did. Maybe critics don't realize that you don't respond to every vagabond or beggar in this way, nor do I. You were there. We were not. Good Job.

[MLeake]

again, what part of quiet approach, after dark, on private property are you not grasping?

This is not the same as a panhandler on a busy sidewalk asking for money as he approaches. (Although you need to keep an eye on them, too.)

It's not the same as a person on the sidewalk asking for directions.

You may not see the distinction, but there is one.

[Skans]

A scruffy looking vagabond came up to his house looking for a handout and he told him to go away. The ONLY place anyone would make a fuss over this is on TFL!

Guess you've never found yourself in this situation - a situation where you knew something wasn't right about a guy who approached you. A guy who had no business approaching you where he did and when he did. I've been there. I've had to get aggressive with this kind of person - got called all kinds of names for it too, but me and my girlfriend (wife now) survived. It's not the "no big deal" you are trying to make it out to be. We all live in different areas of the country. Maybe where you live, or where MarkJ lives folks don't mean anyone any harm and have no problem about wondering onto other folks property at night.

Personally, I can't imagine walking up on someone just as they are getting out of their car at night in a neighborhood where I didin't live. What would possibly compell me to do this? Folks just don't do that kind of thing, so I see no problem in handling this as though the man could be dangerous or up to no good.

[rantingredneck]

The Duke didn't actually say that...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... that was Richard Boone, former star of "Paladin."

Boone played the lead kidnapper.

Cheers,

M

MLeake,

Actually the Duke did say it. He turned Richard Boone's line around on him later in the movie at the business end of a Greener...