Suggestion on ceramic/plastic dirks/knives

Oleg Volk · December 9, 1999, 09:03 PM

I am looking for a short (under 4") ceramic or plastic dirk/dagger/stabber. Could someone educate me on qualities to seek, suggested models and sources...and recommend sources of basic training? Thank you.

------------------
Oleg

http://dd-b.net/RKBA

Joey · December 9, 1999, 09:26 PM

Check out Blade Forums, you will get tons of info there about knives. I'm hooked on visiting that site almost as much as comming here. http://www.bladeforums.com/

Oleg Volk · December 9, 1999, 11:39 PM

OK, let me re-state the question. What kind of problems crop up when using a ceramic blade as a last-ditch defensive stabber (compard with using a steel blade for the same purposes)? Please spare the jokes, the question is serious.

Dad2Jane · December 10, 1999, 11:17 AM

Should be no problems any different from an ordinary blade... especially considering that - for most people - HAVING to use such a weapon will probably never happen.

For various professions, using such a weapon would just be part of the job.

There MAY be questions raised, i.e. a red flag, if you are seen with such a weapon by L.E. types... "why carry this?". Also being found carrying this onto an airplane, other other areas where weapons are prohibited, would cause alarm.

Bottom line, I guess would be... don't be seen with it; only use it when deadly force is justified; ... basically the same as any other weapon...

Hope that helps...

Arnistador · December 10, 1999, 05:09 PM

What is your intended use for this tool? Is it deep concealment or defense?

If you want a use once and throw away stabber, you may want to resort to the $4 Delta Dart made of Zytel. It is not much to look at, but it is cheap (but then again, so is a sharpened pencil.)

On the higher end, you may wish to consider the excellent Mad Dog Mirage X ceramic composite knives. They are stronger than the simple alumina ceramic Kyocera/Bokers, and make excellent utility blades, slashers as well as penetrators. The only downside is the extra cost for such a specialized tool.

As for training, seek out a qualified instructor in such arts as Bando or the Filipino Martial Arts. These systems have broken down edged weapons combat into a veritable science.

As Dad2Jane mentioned, be sure to keep in mind the legal ramifications of carrying/using such items.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment

Oleg Volk · December 10, 1999, 05:15 PM

My use would be deep concealment for "SHTF and no retreat possible...and nothing better available".

Steve Smith · December 10, 1999, 05:19 PM

Oleg, I have a part-time job selling knives. Ceramic knives are available like this, but I strongly caution you against them. Ceramic is the hardest man-made material, and second only to diamond. What this means is, is it's EXTREMELY brittle. If you could make a diamond long and thin (like a blade) it would be extremely fragile too. Ceramic blades are only good for straight line cutting, with no latteral movement (like in a fight). Oh yeah, if you drop it, it's gone too, plus they chip out a lot.

[This message has been edited by Frontsight! (edited December 10, 1999).]

**Rich Lucibella** · December 10, 1999, 10:18 PM

Frontsight-
I'd have agreed with you until I became a Mad Dog owner. Kevin's ceramics are light years ahead (at least "years ahead"

)

Yes, if you drop it, you risk shatter (the same as a flat file). If you use lateral pressure against bone or metal, you may chip it (these cane be stroked out with EZ Lap diamond stones).

However, I've used them for everything from packing cartons to *beer bottles* (no kidding, they cut glass!) without a problem. I had occasion to help Kevin dress an entire hog in Texas with one earlier this year. There was no appreciable dulling.

O.V.
Given your purposes, I suggest the Mad Dog Micro. They may not be cheap....but neither is a custom 1911 (at 5 times the price!)
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited December 10, 1999).]

Steve Smith · December 11, 1999, 12:22 PM

Rich, we'll habve to agree to disagree on this one, because there's no way to make ceramic materal as flexible as steel. If I'm using a knife as a last resort after I'm out of ammo, then I don't want to leave the blade in the guy I'm fighting. There's a lot of latteral force at the meeting of blade and handle, especially when thrusting. Next time you field dress a hog. try "getting into a fight" with it around the area you shot it (so there's not much meat damage) and try for the ribs too (if you feel like you have enough meet) use lot's of thrusting movements...hope you don't break your blade. Oleg, what happened to your web page?

Matt VDW · December 13, 1999, 04:29 PM

Would it be possible to put a ceramic edge insert in an aluminum knife? Then you'd have a sharp, shatter-resistant knife. Or would it be easier to mould the ceramic into something like Zytel?

Just a thought...

**Rich Lucibella** · December 14, 1999, 08:01 AM

Frontsight-
I hear your point, but disagree. Kevin also makes a prybar out of the same material. This is becoming popular in EOD circles. You might consider working with a Mad Dog ceramic before reaching final judgement on this.

Also, lets remember the purpose of a ceramic knife: it's not intended as a *replacement* for steel. Ceramics are used when no magnetic or conductive signature is a requirement. This means for carry thru detectors or for EOD work.

I do see that I misread Oleg's original question, though. He asaked about a "dirk/stabber". I would agree with you that if the main purpose is penetration, steel is the answer.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited December 14, 1999).]

Byron Quick · December 14, 1999, 11:54 AM

I am frequently bemused by statements such as Dad2Jane's about most people never having to use a weapon (or unarmed self defense, whatever) Either I'm living in a different universe or I'm a magnet for trouble. I've used martial arts to defend against serious assault on several occasions, presentation of a firearm or knife has aborted assaults on several occasions. Apparently I'm a statistical anomaly or else many others have been extraordinarily fortunate and do not realize it.

------------------
Byron Quick

jdthaddeus · December 16, 1999, 06:01 AM

Frontsite-

Your stance in honorable, but you are speaking of a particular item that you obviously are not familiar with. The Mirage X is not your everyday ceramic composite knife. Yes, you are right: most ceramic knives are brittle and thin, such as the Kyocera kind and kitchen knives. Mad Dog Mirage X knives are NOT brittle and will easily withstand knife combat. Try one out, you will be amazed.

I have had a number of Mirage X knives and used them as a daily item. I have also trained with them in the martial arts, hacking up cutting dummies, trees, you name it with NEVER a chip or break. In other words, I have whacked and stabbed the hell out of this knife and it has never broken or chipped. There is no fathomable reason in a knife defense encounter that the Mirage X would break.
It is not my first choice for a defensive knife, but then few concealable knives would please me for knife defense. But, for the role it plays, as a very concealable backup blade, the Mirage X is outstanding.

Mad Dog is making a pry bar out of this stuff to give you an idea of how tough it is. He does demos where he throws the ceramic knife as high as he can into the air, letting it crash down on pavement, and it almost never breaks the tip off. (There are not many STEEL knives that can withstand that abuse without losing their tip). He does demos where he leans on the knife. He says it has about the same consistancy as a steel file. It will not flex, and it will break, but you have to really work at it.

As Rich said, it is not a replacement for steel. Steel is preferred for most tasks. But, for the niche the Mirage X fills, it cannot be beat. If you need a non-magnetic, non-corrodable, flat and very concealable knife that will hold it's edge forever, then the Mirage X Operator or Micro is the best in the league.

[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited December 16, 1999).]

Oleg Volk · December 17, 1999, 10:14 AM

I decided toforgo knives for now and get training with knives/sticks first. I will shop afterwards.

BTW, my site is still up and running...

------------------
Oleg

http://dd-b.net/RKBA

ctdonath · December 17, 1999, 11:04 AM

Oleg-

Go study Kali (Phillipine stick fighting). It's geared toward almost anything you can get your hands on, including knives. http://www.donath.org/Defense/Kali

TEXAS LAWMAN · December 18, 1999, 08:29 PM

Regardless of its composition, don't carry the dirk/dagger/stabber in TEXAS. We define "ILLEGAL KNIFE" as a: knife w/blade >5.5", throwing knife, bowie knife, sword, spear, dagger, included but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard. An offense is the highest grade of misdemeanor (Class A), unless committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit to sell alcoholic beverages-- then it's a Felony 3. It's stupid but our concealed handgun licensees (our CHLs undergo the most rigorous background check in the nation) cannot carry a handgun in places which derive >51% of its income from alcohol sales. This includes many restaurants, etc.

Steve Smith · December 19, 1999, 02:07 AM

I guess I'll just give up. Considering how difficult these things are to find (I've tried since this post started), I guess I haven't seen it. I have seen the carbon fiber blades, and they look interesting. Looking deeper into this topic, if I need a "non-magnetic" knife to get through security, then there's a very good chance that no one else will be armed either. Considering airlines, I always carry my Leatherman on a plane (just in case of a crash and I'm lucky enough to survive, and I need tools to break/cut my way out) The Leatherman is also a weapon, and I've NEVER been refused carry of it on a plane, an dI fly all the time.

Dad2Jane · December 20, 1999, 08:45 AM

Frontsight,
The Leatherman - especially one with the metal, NOT plastic, handles - lends itself well to improvisation as a weapon. I can think of a variety of ways to use it. In many ways, it is better to carry than a regular knife.

Great idea...

------------------
Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...

Arnistador · December 20, 1999, 01:13 PM

Frontsight!,

Give our site a visit. I believe we have a Micro or Operator in stock.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment

cdf · December 20, 1999, 01:26 PM

Ever consider a wood blade gentlemen?

TEXAS LAWMAN · December 20, 1999, 02:46 PM

I like the idea of a Leatherman or Gerber tool in a belt pouch. Has lots of uses. I usually throw mine (Gerber) in my checked baggage cause of the hassles resulting from the increased security evident in recent years. Of course, sometimes when I fly I'm carrying a loaded handgun on my body -- so a Gerber tool would be less important for self-defense.

George Hill · December 21, 1999, 05:26 AM

Wood?
Yeah - I got a nice one... Luiseville SLUGGER.

Oleg Volk · December 21, 1999, 09:55 AM

And that leads to to a mostly unrelated question: which brand+model of multi-tool would you recommend for versatility and durability? I have been shoping and the number of choices and price range are confusing...

Steve Smith · December 21, 1999, 11:01 AM

I've owned almost all of them, and I think the Victorinox SwissTool (swiss-army) is best.

Jake 98c/11b · December 25, 1999, 04:38 PM

Where can I find More detail on the Mad Dog knives, you have me interested.

December 9, 1999, 09:03 PM	#1
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I am looking for a short (under 4") ceramic or plastic dirk/dagger/stabber. Could someone educate me on qualities to seek, suggested models and sources...and recommend sources of basic training? Thank you. ------------------ Oleg http://dd-b.net/RKBA

December 9, 1999, 09:26 PM	#2
Joey Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 1999 Posts: 437	Check out Blade Forums, you will get tons of info there about knives. I'm hooked on visiting that site almost as much as comming here. http://www.bladeforums.com/

December 9, 1999, 11:39 PM	#3
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	OK, let me re-state the question. What kind of problems crop up when using a ceramic blade as a last-ditch defensive stabber (compard with using a steel blade for the same purposes)? Please spare the jokes, the question is serious.

December 10, 1999, 11:17 AM	#4
Dad2Jane Member Join Date: November 16, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN, USA Posts: 95	Should be no problems any different from an ordinary blade... especially considering that - for most people - HAVING to use such a weapon will probably never happen. For various professions, using such a weapon would just be part of the job. There MAY be questions raised, i.e. a red flag, if you are seen with such a weapon by L.E. types... "why carry this?". Also being found carrying this onto an airplane, other other areas where weapons are prohibited, would cause alarm. Bottom line, I guess would be... don't be seen with it; only use it when deadly force is justified; ... basically the same as any other weapon... Hope that helps...

December 10, 1999, 05:09 PM	#5
Arnistador Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 1999 Posts: 150	What is your intended use for this tool? Is it deep concealment or defense? If you want a use once and throw away stabber, you may want to resort to the $4 Delta Dart made of Zytel. It is not much to look at, but it is cheap (but then again, so is a sharpened pencil.) On the higher end, you may wish to consider the excellent Mad Dog Mirage X ceramic composite knives. They are stronger than the simple alumina ceramic Kyocera/Bokers, and make excellent utility blades, slashers as well as penetrators. The only downside is the extra cost for such a specialized tool. As for training, seek out a qualified instructor in such arts as Bando or the Filipino Martial Arts. These systems have broken down edged weapons combat into a veritable science. As Dad2Jane mentioned, be sure to keep in mind the legal ramifications of carrying/using such items. Tim http://www.streetpro.com Street Smart Professional Equipment

December 10, 1999, 05:15 PM	#6
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	My use would be deep concealment for "SHTF and no retreat possible...and nothing better available".

December 10, 1999, 05:19 PM	#7
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Oleg, I have a part-time job selling knives. Ceramic knives are available like this, but I strongly caution you against them. Ceramic is the hardest man-made material, and second only to diamond. What this means is, is it's EXTREMELY brittle. If you could make a diamond long and thin (like a blade) it would be extremely fragile too. Ceramic blades are only good for straight line cutting, with no latteral movement (like in a fight). Oh yeah, if you drop it, it's gone too, plus they chip out a lot. [This message has been edited by Frontsight! (edited December 10, 1999).]

December 10, 1999, 10:18 PM	#8
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Frontsight- I'd have agreed with you until I became a Mad Dog owner. Kevin's ceramics are light years ahead (at least "years ahead" ) Yes, if you drop it, you risk shatter (the same as a flat file). If you use lateral pressure against bone or metal, you may chip it (these cane be stroked out with EZ Lap diamond stones). However, I've used them for everything from packing cartons to beer bottles (no kidding, they cut glass!) without a problem. I had occasion to help Kevin dress an entire hog in Texas with one earlier this year. There was no appreciable dulling. O.V. Given your purposes, I suggest the Mad Dog Micro. They may not be cheap....but neither is a custom 1911 (at 5 times the price!) Rich [This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited December 10, 1999).]

December 11, 1999, 12:22 PM	#9
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Rich, we'll habve to agree to disagree on this one, because there's no way to make ceramic materal as flexible as steel. If I'm using a knife as a last resort after I'm out of ammo, then I don't want to leave the blade in the guy I'm fighting. There's a lot of latteral force at the meeting of blade and handle, especially when thrusting. Next time you field dress a hog. try "getting into a fight" with it around the area you shot it (so there's not much meat damage) and try for the ribs too (if you feel like you have enough meet) use lot's of thrusting movements...hope you don't break your blade. Oleg, what happened to your web page?

December 13, 1999, 04:29 PM	#10
Matt VDW Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 1999 Posts: 1,315	Would it be possible to put a ceramic edge insert in an aluminum knife? Then you'd have a sharp, shatter-resistant knife. Or would it be easier to mould the ceramic into something like Zytel? Just a thought...

December 14, 1999, 08:01 AM	#11
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Frontsight- I hear your point, but disagree. Kevin also makes a prybar out of the same material. This is becoming popular in EOD circles. You might consider working with a Mad Dog ceramic before reaching final judgement on this. Also, lets remember the purpose of a ceramic knife: it's not intended as a replacement for steel. Ceramics are used when no magnetic or conductive signature is a requirement. This means for carry thru detectors or for EOD work. I do see that I misread Oleg's original question, though. He asaked about a "dirk/stabber". I would agree with you that if the main purpose is penetration, steel is the answer. Rich [This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited December 14, 1999).]

December 14, 1999, 11:54 AM	#12
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	I am frequently bemused by statements such as Dad2Jane's about most people never having to use a weapon (or unarmed self defense, whatever) Either I'm living in a different universe or I'm a magnet for trouble. I've used martial arts to defend against serious assault on several occasions, presentation of a firearm or knife has aborted assaults on several occasions. Apparently I'm a statistical anomaly or else many others have been extraordinarily fortunate and do not realize it. ------------------ Byron Quick

December 16, 1999, 06:01 AM	#13
jdthaddeus Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 1999 Location: Az Posts: 470	Frontsite- Your stance in honorable, but you are speaking of a particular item that you obviously are not familiar with. The Mirage X is not your everyday ceramic composite knife. Yes, you are right: most ceramic knives are brittle and thin, such as the Kyocera kind and kitchen knives. Mad Dog Mirage X knives are NOT brittle and will easily withstand knife combat. Try one out, you will be amazed. I have had a number of Mirage X knives and used them as a daily item. I have also trained with them in the martial arts, hacking up cutting dummies, trees, you name it with NEVER a chip or break. In other words, I have whacked and stabbed the hell out of this knife and it has never broken or chipped. There is no fathomable reason in a knife defense encounter that the Mirage X would break. It is not my first choice for a defensive knife, but then few concealable knives would please me for knife defense. But, for the role it plays, as a very concealable backup blade, the Mirage X is outstanding. Mad Dog is making a pry bar out of this stuff to give you an idea of how tough it is. He does demos where he throws the ceramic knife as high as he can into the air, letting it crash down on pavement, and it almost never breaks the tip off. (There are not many STEEL knives that can withstand that abuse without losing their tip). He does demos where he leans on the knife. He says it has about the same consistancy as a steel file. It will not flex, and it will break, but you have to really work at it. As Rich said, it is not a replacement for steel. Steel is preferred for most tasks. But, for the niche the Mirage X fills, it cannot be beat. If you need a non-magnetic, non-corrodable, flat and very concealable knife that will hold it's edge forever, then the Mirage X Operator or Micro is the best in the league. [This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited December 16, 1999).]

December 17, 1999, 10:14 AM	#14
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I decided toforgo knives for now and get training with knives/sticks first. I will shop afterwards. BTW, my site is still up and running... ------------------ Oleg http://dd-b.net/RKBA

December 17, 1999, 11:04 AM	#15
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	Oleg- Go study Kali (Phillipine stick fighting). It's geared toward almost anything you can get your hands on, including knives. http://www.donath.org/Defense/Kali

December 18, 1999, 08:29 PM	#16
TEXAS LAWMAN Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 1999 Posts: 304	Regardless of its composition, don't carry the dirk/dagger/stabber in TEXAS. We define "ILLEGAL KNIFE" as a: knife w/blade >5.5", throwing knife, bowie knife, sword, spear, dagger, included but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard. An offense is the highest grade of misdemeanor (Class A), unless committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit to sell alcoholic beverages-- then it's a Felony 3. It's stupid but our concealed handgun licensees (our CHLs undergo the most rigorous background check in the nation) cannot carry a handgun in places which derive >51% of its income from alcohol sales. This includes many restaurants, etc.

December 19, 1999, 02:07 AM	#17
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	I guess I'll just give up. Considering how difficult these things are to find (I've tried since this post started), I guess I haven't seen it. I have seen the carbon fiber blades, and they look interesting. Looking deeper into this topic, if I need a "non-magnetic" knife to get through security, then there's a very good chance that no one else will be armed either. Considering airlines, I always carry my Leatherman on a plane (just in case of a crash and I'm lucky enough to survive, and I need tools to break/cut my way out) The Leatherman is also a weapon, and I've NEVER been refused carry of it on a plane, an dI fly all the time.

December 20, 1999, 08:45 AM	#18
Dad2Jane Member Join Date: November 16, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN, USA Posts: 95	Frontsight, The Leatherman - especially one with the metal, NOT plastic, handles - lends itself well to improvisation as a weapon. I can think of a variety of ways to use it. In many ways, it is better to carry than a regular knife. Great idea... ------------------ Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...

December 20, 1999, 01:13 PM	#19
Arnistador Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 1999 Posts: 150	Frontsight!, Give our site a visit. I believe we have a Micro or Operator in stock. Tim http://www.streetpro.com Street Smart Professional Equipment

December 20, 1999, 01:26 PM	#20
cdf Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 1999 Location: richmond, virginia Posts: 137	Ever consider a wood blade gentlemen?

December 20, 1999, 02:46 PM	#21
TEXAS LAWMAN Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 1999 Posts: 304	I like the idea of a Leatherman or Gerber tool in a belt pouch. Has lots of uses. I usually throw mine (Gerber) in my checked baggage cause of the hassles resulting from the increased security evident in recent years. Of course, sometimes when I fly I'm carrying a loaded handgun on my body -- so a Gerber tool would be less important for self-defense.

December 21, 1999, 05:26 AM	#22
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Wood? Yeah - I got a nice one... Luiseville SLUGGER.

December 21, 1999, 09:55 AM	#23
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	And that leads to to a mostly unrelated question: which brand+model of multi-tool would you recommend for versatility and durability? I have been shoping and the number of choices and price range are confusing...

December 21, 1999, 11:01 AM	#24
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	I've owned almost all of them, and I think the Victorinox SwissTool (swiss-army) is best.

December 25, 1999, 04:38 PM	#25
Jake 98c/11b Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 1999 Posts: 471	Where can I find More detail on the Mad Dog knives, you have me interested.