Winchester Primers

GASCHECK · September 2, 2007, 05:58 PM

Loaders:
How come Winchester primers are no longer nickle plated? They look weird in nickle plated cases. Cutting corners, or just too busy?

I see prices have also risen 35%.

Gascheck

mrawesome22 · September 2, 2007, 09:12 PM

Winchester primers have not been nickel plated since I've been handloading. CCI's are however.

GASCHECK · September 2, 2007, 11:51 PM

Mr. A.
Well, I checked, and sure enough, primers from '03 in the blue box are not plated. The old white-boxed ones from before that I have are. I got a tremendous deal and bought huge years ago.
I thought only Remingtons were not plated.
I'll look for CCI's. Are Federals still plated?

Thanks! Gascheck

Linear Thinker · September 3, 2007, 02:54 PM

Federal primers are still nickel-plated, I just opened a new case of GM215s.
Gosh, I haven't seen an unplated primer since 25 years ago when I finished my Alcan primer stash.
LT

Michaelm45 · September 3, 2007, 03:22 PM

LT, Jeez I was looking in my cabinet the other day for primers (been out of Alcan for a long time) but I did see a can of AL8.
What ever happened to Alcan? I used a lot of their products.

snuffy · September 3, 2007, 04:07 PM

Alcan was bought up by Smith & Wesson, about 20 years ago,(give or take a decade). They promptly stopped selling ALL of the excellent products Alcan made! AL 5, 6, and 7 were the go-to powders for magnum shotshells. The alcan max-fire was the stoutest 209 sized primer made. I swear, it would lite wet powder!

Whether a primer is nickel plated or not has nothing to do with how well it works. Of course, if you're that picky about appearances, I suppose it would make a difference.

L Puckett · September 3, 2007, 05:31 PM

GASCHECK,

Does the phrase "cause they are", work here ?

Try this primer confusion. .308 Win Federal Gold Medal Match "Factory" loads use FGMM210M primers, they are brass (unplated). If you buy FGMM210M primers for reloading the are nickled (plated).

Go figure. No one has been able to give me a good explaination on that one yet.

LP

Linear Thinker · September 3, 2007, 06:41 PM

Michael - Alcan was my 1st brand of components when I started reloading, quite a while ago. My 1st reloads were for 357Mag - AL-5 for accuracy and AL-8 for oomph. I also used Cascade primers, now known as CCI.
I recall that Alcan manufactured their own powders unlike the big resellers of today (Hodgdon selling ADI powders, Accurate selling first IMI then Lovex stuff etc). Their powder looked different and distinctive, with flat smooth flakes.
Does anyone know if their production lines were bought by someone after S&W decided to get out of component business?

crowbeaner · September 3, 2007, 06:55 PM

I'm not sure but the Brenneke KO slug has flake powder that looks suspiciously like the AL8 of yore. I have 1 1/2 lbs of AL8, 1 lb. of AL7 and 1 can about 3/4 full of AL5 left. I used to load 11.0 of AL8 under the RCBS 38-150-KT for match shooting with my old 6 inch M19. I sold the gun long ago and gave the buyer the last target I shot with the load. (5) 1 hole groups with the 1 dreaded flyer to keep me honest. He was impressed and I gave him 200 rounds to boot. Sure would be nice if there was a source of their fine powders now. AL7 was the fastest load I ever saw with the 125 gr. bullet in the .357; right up there with the 14.5 max. load of Blue Dot. Just my $0.02. Enjoy. CB.

snuffy · September 3, 2007, 07:20 PM

The way the alcan powders were made was; they rolled the wet powder out on a mirror smooth sheet. Then a cutter like a pizza cutter cut at an angle to form the flakes. Burning rate was controlled by the thickness and the size of the flakes.

It was very dense powder, you could get a lot of it in a shell, but it was notorious for being hard to ignite, at least in shotshells.

GASCHECK · September 4, 2007, 12:46 AM

Anybody remember/use RWS Sinoxid primers. They had a funny copper color.

Then I bought a case of POWAM shotshells. (Made in Poland). Boxes stapled together. Had "Poloxid priming". Box said "Shoot shells Olympic Shooters shoot". They shot real good, seemed to have a little more oomph than usual trap loads. Smelled bad though. Guanodine? :barf:

Gascheck

rugerdude29 · September 4, 2007, 12:58 PM

Winchester quit plating thier primers becase they were deemed too "hard." Apparently they had gotten a lot of grumbling from certain groups of shooters who said that Win. primers did not always ignite properly. This was apparently due to guns whose actions had been lightened a little too much. But, they stopped plating the primers so that they would be more reliable in basically any gun. That's what I was told by a rep. anyway.

Michaelm45 · September 4, 2007, 02:59 PM

snuffy,Linear Thinker
Thanks, Alcan brought back alot of good memories.

GASCHECK · September 4, 2007, 09:33 PM

Rugerdude:

That rep's explanation sounds like a line of hokum to me! Any other manufacturers getting complaints about nickle plated primers? They've been around as long as I can remember, and I have been loading for 50 years! Seems to me if the primers are too hard, you have a metallurgy problem. I don't think a couple thousands or less of nickle plate is going to matter. Just cutting corners if you ask me. It's one less operation. Tell that rep I said so!

Gascheck

joneb · September 5, 2007, 12:08 AM

I don't live in a corrosive environment, but if I did non-plated primers would be on my short list for long term storage.

Alleykat · September 5, 2007, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Winchester quit plating thier primers becase they were deemed too "hard." Apparently they had gotten a lot of grumbling from certain groups of shooters who said that Win. primers did not always ignite properly. This was apparently due to guns whose actions had been lightened a little too much. But, they stopped plating the primers so that they would be more reliable in basically any gun. That's what I was told by a rep. anyway.
__________________

I never had trouble with the plated Win primers; just the opposite. It's the "gold" Winchester primers that have caused so many problems, mainly in LP size.

rugerdude29 · September 5, 2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

That rep's explanation sounds like a line of hokum to me! Any other manufacturers getting complaints about nickle plated primers? They've been around as long as I can remember, and I have been loading for 50 years! Seems to me if the primers are too hard, you have a metallurgy problem. I don't think a couple thousands or less of nickle plate is going to matter. Just cutting corners if you ask me. It's one less operation. Tell that rep I said so!
Gascheck

Now thats just what I was told, but I kinda thought the same thing you do. I can easily see where it would be a cost cutting measure, though. 'Course, about all I've ever used is Win primers and have never had a problem with any failing to fire if they were seated correctly. I just took the rep's word for it, but that could just be the standard cover line that he was told to tell! You know, CYA.

raypenn · September 7, 2007, 08:05 PM

Ruger the softness of the uncoated ones is exactly the reason us service rifle shooters quite using them. They used to be the primer of choice for competition. Very little problems with slam fires and they took all the abuse we put on them with the hot loads we run at the 600 yrd line. When they switched over guys where having all kinds of problems with them piercing. The AR firing pins where blowing right thru the cups and ruining the firing pins. Now I dont know a single person that uses them for competition. Most all of us now us Rem 7.5. I really wonder how much the change made a diff in their sales. More than likely it was a cost saving deal and had nothing to do with soft hits. Although they are alot softer now. So you nerver know.

Slamfire · September 7, 2007, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Winchester quit plating thier primers becase they were deemed too "hard." But, they stopped plating the primers so that they would be more reliable in basically any gun. That's what I was told by a rep. anyway.

This is close to what I was told when I called Winchester in 1999. That was the year the new brass finish primer came out. What I was told was "the primer was made more sensitive to counter off center hits".

When I told the representative that more sensitive primers were a bad thing for gas guns, the representative was non responsive.

I had a shelf of WSR brass plated. They pierced so easily that I ate many AR firing pins . I am using up the last of my old nickle plated WSR. This year I took my nickle plated WSR to Perry. For a load that give me one or two pierced brass WSR primers per ten rounds, I had no pierced primers with the nickle plate. For all the short range rounds I fired. Not a one.

At long range I am using CCI #41's. They have a tough cup and shoot well. And that is what I am going to when all my nickle plated WSR's are gone.

Sevens · September 8, 2007, 12:59 AM

-insert evil grin smiley- Makes me want to hold on to the nickel plated Win small rifle primers I have now and use new stuff in the hopes that someone will offer big bucks for the "extremely rare" primers I have a few boxes of in the future!

kidcoltoutlaw · September 8, 2007, 11:56 AM

I have had the nickle come off and hang up in the firing pin channel with high pressure 357 SIG loads,

Thanks,Keith

TWB · September 8, 2007, 06:58 PM

GASCHECK,
I remember the RWS-Sinoxid primers (and .22 BB caps) very well. Always bought them at Gibson"s Discount on N. 1st. in Abilene, Tx from a guy named Capps. Those were really good primers and I'd still be using them if I could find some. Shoot, I'd still be going to Gibson's, if I could find one.

1 vote from here that the brass primers from Winchester look strange, and to me, cheap. They still seem to work the same in my guns, though.

twb

September 2, 2007, 05:58 PM	#1
GASCHECK Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Posts: 218	Winchester Primers Loaders: How come Winchester primers are no longer nickle plated? They look weird in nickle plated cases. Cutting corners, or just too busy? I see prices have also risen 35%. Gascheck

September 2, 2007, 11:51 PM	#3
GASCHECK Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Posts: 218	Winchester Primers Mr. A. Well, I checked, and sure enough, primers from '03 in the blue box are not plated. The old white-boxed ones from before that I have are. I got a tremendous deal and bought huge years ago. I thought only Remingtons were not plated. I'll look for CCI's. Are Federals still plated? Thanks! Gascheck

September 3, 2007, 04:07 PM	#6
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	Alcan? Alcan was bought up by Smith & Wesson, about 20 years ago,(give or take a decade). They promptly stopped selling ALL of the excellent products Alcan made! AL 5, 6, and 7 were the go-to powders for magnum shotshells. The alcan max-fire was the stoutest 209 sized primer made. I swear, it would lite wet powder! Whether a primer is nickel plated or not has nothing to do with how well it works. Of course, if you're that picky about appearances, I suppose it would make a difference. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

September 3, 2007, 07:20 PM	#10
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	The way the alcan powders were made was; they rolled the wet powder out on a mirror smooth sheet. Then a cutter like a pizza cutter cut at an angle to form the flakes. Burning rate was controlled by the thickness and the size of the flakes. It was very dense powder, you could get a lot of it in a shell, but it was notorious for being hard to ignite, at least in shotshells. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

September 4, 2007, 12:46 AM	#11
GASCHECK Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Posts: 218	Winchester Primers Anybody remember/use RWS Sinoxid primers. They had a funny copper color. Then I bought a case of POWAM shotshells. (Made in Poland). Boxes stapled together. Had "Poloxid priming". Box said "Shoot shells Olympic Shooters shoot". They shot real good, seemed to have a little more oomph than usual trap loads. Smelled bad though. Guanodine? :barf: Gascheck

September 2, 2007, 09:12 PM	#2
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Winchester primers have not been nickel plated since I've been handloading. CCI's are however.

September 3, 2007, 02:54 PM	#4
Linear Thinker Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2007 Location: Blue State, NE US Posts: 202	Federal primers are still nickel-plated, I just opened a new case of GM215s. Gosh, I haven't seen an unplated primer since 25 years ago when I finished my Alcan primer stash. LT

September 3, 2007, 03:22 PM	#5
Michaelm45 Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2004 Location: NV Posts: 215	LT, Jeez I was looking in my cabinet the other day for primers (been out of Alcan for a long time) but I did see a can of AL8. What ever happened to Alcan? I used a lot of their products.

September 3, 2007, 05:31 PM	#7
L Puckett Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Location: Mid-Tennessee Posts: 150	GASCHECK, Does the phrase "cause they are", work here ? Try this primer confusion. .308 Win Federal Gold Medal Match "Factory" loads use FGMM210M primers, they are brass (unplated). If you buy FGMM210M primers for reloading the are nickled (plated). Go figure. No one has been able to give me a good explaination on that one yet. LP

September 3, 2007, 06:41 PM	#8
Linear Thinker Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2007 Location: Blue State, NE US Posts: 202	Michael - Alcan was my 1st brand of components when I started reloading, quite a while ago. My 1st reloads were for 357Mag - AL-5 for accuracy and AL-8 for oomph. I also used Cascade primers, now known as CCI. I recall that Alcan manufactured their own powders unlike the big resellers of today (Hodgdon selling ADI powders, Accurate selling first IMI then Lovex stuff etc). Their powder looked different and distinctive, with flat smooth flakes. Does anyone know if their production lines were bought by someone after S&W decided to get out of component business?

September 3, 2007, 06:55 PM	#9
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I'm not sure but the Brenneke KO slug has flake powder that looks suspiciously like the AL8 of yore. I have 1 1/2 lbs of AL8, 1 lb. of AL7 and 1 can about 3/4 full of AL5 left. I used to load 11.0 of AL8 under the RCBS 38-150-KT for match shooting with my old 6 inch M19. I sold the gun long ago and gave the buyer the last target I shot with the load. (5) 1 hole groups with the 1 dreaded flyer to keep me honest. He was impressed and I gave him 200 rounds to boot. Sure would be nice if there was a source of their fine powders now. AL7 was the fastest load I ever saw with the 125 gr. bullet in the .357; right up there with the 14.5 max. load of Blue Dot. Just my $0.02. Enjoy. CB.

September 4, 2007, 12:58 PM	#12
rugerdude29 Member Join Date: August 21, 2007 Location: Stillmore, GA Posts: 41	Winchester quit plating thier primers becase they were deemed too "hard." Apparently they had gotten a lot of grumbling from certain groups of shooters who said that Win. primers did not always ignite properly. This was apparently due to guns whose actions had been lightened a little too much. But, they stopped plating the primers so that they would be more reliable in basically any gun. That's what I was told by a rep. anyway. __________________ "Ignorance is curable, but Stupid is forever!" -Granddad

September 4, 2007, 02:59 PM	#13
Michaelm45 Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2004 Location: NV Posts: 215	snuffy,Linear Thinker Thanks, Alcan brought back alot of good memories.

September 4, 2007, 09:33 PM	#14
GASCHECK Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Posts: 218	Winchester Primers Rugerdude: That rep's explanation sounds like a line of hokum to me! Any other manufacturers getting complaints about nickle plated primers? They've been around as long as I can remember, and I have been loading for 50 years! Seems to me if the primers are too hard, you have a metallurgy problem. I don't think a couple thousands or less of nickle plate is going to matter. Just cutting corners if you ask me. It's one less operation. Tell that rep I said so! Gascheck

September 5, 2007, 12:08 AM	#15
joneb Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Location: Central , OR Posts: 1,888	I don't live in a corrosive environment, but if I did non-plated primers would be on my short list for long term storage.

September 7, 2007, 08:05 PM	#18
raypenn Junior Member Join Date: September 2, 2007 Posts: 2	Ruger the softness of the uncoated ones is exactly the reason us service rifle shooters quite using them. They used to be the primer of choice for competition. Very little problems with slam fires and they took all the abuse we put on them with the hot loads we run at the 600 yrd line. When they switched over guys where having all kinds of problems with them piercing. The AR firing pins where blowing right thru the cups and ruining the firing pins. Now I dont know a single person that uses them for competition. Most all of us now us Rem 7.5. I really wonder how much the change made a diff in their sales. More than likely it was a cost saving deal and had nothing to do with soft hits. Although they are alot softer now. So you nerver know.

September 8, 2007, 12:59 AM	#20
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	-insert evil grin smiley- Makes me want to hold on to the nickel plated Win small rifle primers I have now and use new stuff in the hopes that someone will offer big bucks for the "extremely rare" primers I have a few boxes of in the future! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

September 8, 2007, 11:56 AM	#21
kidcoltoutlaw Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: bluefield Posts: 735	I can see it in small pistol I have had the nickle come off and hang up in the firing pin channel with high pressure 357 SIG loads, Thanks,Keith __________________ It's not just a gun it's the symbol of freedom

September 8, 2007, 06:58 PM	#22
TWB Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2007 Posts: 145	GASCHECK, I remember the RWS-Sinoxid primers (and .22 BB caps) very well. Always bought them at Gibson"s Discount on N. 1st. in Abilene, Tx from a guy named Capps. Those were really good primers and I'd still be using them if I could find some. Shoot, I'd still be going to Gibson's, if I could find one. 1 vote from here that the brass primers from Winchester look strange, and to me, cheap. They still seem to work the same in my guns, though. twb