Best Full Auto

Floyd2U · March 14, 1999, 01:04 PM

Given Class 3 weapons are expensive, what is the best one? Endurance, price, ammo cost?

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Daren Thompson · March 14, 1999, 06:18 PM

I feel they are all good!! except maybey a Cauchaut(or however U spell it). I personally would like a select fire AR-15 with telescoping stock and 11 inch barrel. Now at $3-5K for an AR I plan to purchase a Mac 10/11 in 9mm at Knob Creek. The gun can be found for under $1K and 9 mil can be found cheap.

My $.02 worth

Later
Daren

Art Eatman · March 14, 1999, 11:03 PM

Floyd2U, if you'll expound just a bit on what you might want to do with your Class III? Aside from turning money into noise?

Your question is sorta like, "What's the best vehicle?" or "Whose shooting school is best?".

Lotsa guys happy to help, but need more to go on.

Regards, Art

Floyd2U · March 15, 1999, 04:27 AM

Probably turning money into noise would be my primary purpose for a full auto. I was looking for one that would hold up without alot of maintenance problems. With the cost of ammo, prefer a 9mm, .223, or a 7.62X39...Of course if there's a reliable .22 full auto out there, I could probably be persuaded to go that route...

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fal308 · March 15, 1999, 10:54 AM

The American 180 came in a full auto version (.22lr).

**4V50 Gary** · March 15, 1999, 11:24 AM

What's the mission?

Given no restriction on costs (ammo & gun), I'd go with the M16 (quad 50 on a M3 half track).

The HK MP5 family as made in Germany has held up very well. Per Frank James (Project 64), Kennedy Space Center's MP5 serial #316019 held up to 571,600 rounds fired. While parts were replaced, the headspace on the barrel couldn't be corrected anymore and Kennedy decided to buy a new gun rather than rebuild 316019. Shucks. They could have rebuilt it and sold it to some civilian (thereby paying for their new gun).

The newer UMP is very simplistic when compared to the MP5 family. Straight blowback with no locking rollers. It should have an even longer life span. To borrow from our Sergeant Carlin, "Da 10 be da One!"

Art Eatman · March 15, 1999, 02:33 PM

I've found the M-16 to be very controllable on full auto. The "climb" is easily managed.

Haven't shot an AK-47, but several Namvets have spoken highly of them. They're noted for reliability.

I haven't cared for the "Greasegun" family, as the bolt is a fairly high percentage of the total mass of the gun. For me, recoil has been harder to manage, with the ensuing lack of accuracy or control.

The old GI M-2 Carbine is another fun gun, particularly if you have a progressive reloader...

Full auto is fun! so have fun...Art

scottoworn · March 17, 1999, 12:48 AM

Actually, the Mac11/9 is the best bargain in full-auto firearms that you can find now. Granted, the HK Family of firearms is the BEST that can be had in this world, there is a very limited supply of them available.And they ALL go for a premium price.The SWD Mac11/9's,for that matter, were mass-produced before the May 1986 cut-off date, and are STILL available on the market today.They are considered the most reliable sub-machinegun EVER made as conpared to any thing else out there, no price barred. An HK MP-5 is a work of art compared to a Mac, but is it worth $4000.00 or $5000.00 more? I don't think so. A Mac-11 is a VERY PROVEN bullet hose that is fun to shoot and can be more than effective in close-quarter combat.The only reason that they are "cheap" is that there are more available, but the supply is going down, so get yours while you still can!

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What part of "infringed" don't you understand?

James K · March 18, 1999, 05:08 PM

I'll put in a word for WW II stuff basically because it has historical interest. MP38/40s are pretty salty, but M3s and M3A1s are still affordable. Think about the STEN. It is is the quinesssential sub gun, plenty of parts and mags are still available and ammo is 9mmP. If you can get an amnesty registered gun (not a rebuild) it will have historical value also.

Floyd2U · March 18, 1999, 06:02 PM

Thanks for all the input.

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Tripemaster · March 31, 1999, 09:00 PM

I went to Frontsite's free subgun seminar this year, and what they have is the MAC11. It was fun day, and the MAC could definitely fit the bill to turn money into noise quickly, but frankly the guns suck. Problems are that the sights are terrible and the trigger is very clunky. No accuracy at all at more than 10 yards even in semi-auto. They were designed to be cheap and disposable, and that is exactly what they are.

Lahti20mm · April 14, 1999, 01:29 AM

I would strongly recommend an m16 for your first purchase if you can afford it. The first accessory you get is Cieners 22 kit for 160? makes it inexpensive to run and I've never seen anybody fail to giggle when you let them rip off a mag of 22 LR. just a hoot. Then you get a 9mm upper for around $400 and you have a family of weapons. This is just the start of your problems though. next you'll want a thompson cause they are just cool and then someday you will see a 50 cal and have to get one of them cause they are soooooo awesum, and then you start in the 20 MM world.
I take it all back, get a cheaap hobby like heroin or crack cocane and save yourself a lot of money! The machine gun Anonymous meetings aren't worth a crap cause every body starts talking about guns and then we break up so we can go over to the range. We got smart with our group and save ourselves a lot of shakes and DT's now by haveing the meetings at the range. I don't know what AAs success rate is but so far we haven't cured a single person. about 15 range spectators caught it as well.

Floyd2U · April 14, 1999, 05:45 AM

Thanks for the advice. My return from my taxes wasn't as big as expected so no Class 3 weapon this year. Know any drug dealers? (Just kidding)

Gattling · April 26, 1999, 09:28 AM

Terve, Lahti !

U know what is the funniest way of turning money into noise ?? Those 20mm Lahti Antitank rifles converted to full auto operation for antiaircraft use.

They fire at rate of aprox 550 rnds/min. Service use showed that the receiver can't take that pounding for a long time, but no human maybe short of Bill Gates can take the economical punishment of shooting the amount of ammo that would break one.

That thing has more bollix in it than herd of bulls.

Yeahhh, if I'm nice maybe I get to have one in next life

Gattling =

Ivan8883 · May 9, 1999, 09:37 PM

From:Ivan AK AK AK AK the most reliable of all selective fire weapons ever made and the easiest to maintain(truly a peoples friendly weapon) The flip side, of coarse, is finding one nowdays that wont bankrupt a person. Speaking of the 20m Lahti, when I was akid in the early 60's you could get one for $100.00 with 100 rds ammo delivered RE. Ah , the good old days when men were men and Silver was in our currency!

Ivan8883 · May 9, 1999, 09:39 PM

From:Ivan AK AK AK AK the most reliable of all selective fire weapons ever made and the easiest to maintain(truly a peoples friendly weapon) The flip side, of coarse, is finding one nowdays that wont bankrupt a person. Speaking of the 20m Lahti, when I was akid in the early 60's you could get one for $100.00 with 100 rds ammo delivered RE. Ah , the good old days when men were men and Silver was in our currency!

Floyd2U · May 10, 1999, 02:17 AM

Wish I could have been around to see that much freedom... With the way things are going I'll be lucky to keep my semi-auto's legally...

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Rob Pincus · May 11, 1999, 10:06 AM

I think I agree with Scotto, the Mac weapons are pretty damn cheap and pretty reliable. I have shot both the 380 and the .45, and they are both fun weapons to "play" with.
For the money.

Obvisouly, if you want to spend three grand instead of of one, there are other weapons out there that should be fun and reliable, but for the money, the MAC has got to be the best "money into Noise" thing going.

Kodiac · May 14, 1999, 12:22 PM

Mac are pretty good - but for a few dollars more you can get a good old fashioned UZI... 9mm or 45ACP.

Uzi has a much better feel to it than the MACs. Better reliability, better accuracy as well.

But for hunting Plinks - the .32 ACP Skorpion Machine Pistol is the King!

Some one mentioned the STEN GUN... I will say that it is a great SMG - but whould rather have a Sterling any day.

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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited May 14, 1999).]

Tripp · May 30, 1999, 05:43 PM

My Oerlikon 2cm Flak 29 is one of the best in my opinion.

------------------
Tripp Whitlow, Class 2 manufacturer / 07 Special Occupational Tax (SOT) paid

"When trading projectiles, it's better to give than to receive."

My eBay info web page: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/trippwhitlow/
"While I understand eBay has an ignorant position about firearms in general I am going to continue to use their server to assist me in my quest for maximum firepower!"
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Riss · June 5, 1999, 01:28 AM

Well, having shot about half of the guns made. My $.02 would be on the HK MP5. M1 shoots good and controllable. Ar-15 - gets dirty quick but still a good shooter. Mac and variants are too small to control. The HK is comparable to driving a Rolls Royce. A joy to shoot and feels great in your hands when shooting full auto.

blades67 · June 6, 1999, 05:16 AM

I have an HK 91 with a registered sear. I think this "G3 wannabe" is the best full auto weapon going. Not only does it turn money into noise with the best of them, it can do it out to 1200 meters with outstanding accuracy. Try that with a 9mm or .45acp!
Although, a Mac 10 .45acp or Mac 11 9mm bullet hose is a hoot to shoot.

~Blades~

Kodiac · June 9, 1999, 02:02 PM

Okay - if your going there...
The BEST full Auto is the Army's M-249 SAW.
For a battle field weapon, I would rather have it than anything else. Unless I had the option of a Mk-19!

------------------
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

blades67 · June 10, 1999, 02:25 AM

Okay Kodiac, if we're talking belt-fed, I think the GAU-8/A "Avenger" 30mm cannon, as found in A10 "Thunderbolt's", has to be the best full auto weapon.
If we're talking man-portable belt-fed, then it would be a dead heat between the HK 21 and the M60 (any variant you like best...today). I've carried both the M249 SAW, and the M60 (not at the same time, unless my Rambo dream counts), and have always prefered to carry the M249 (lighter weight), but fire the M60 (longer reach, more force on contact, better assortment of destuctive projectiles).
Only fired the HK 21 once, and it was GOOD!

One Man's Opinion.

~Blades~

Kodiac · June 12, 1999, 07:54 AM

Blades - You musta been a service member of some sorts...

US ARMY over here... I packed the HOG aka M-60 over the river and through the woods many, many a time. When I was handed a M-249 SAW - SON! REVELATION! TRUE LOVE! It was more reliable, you could carry it further easier, and with more ammo... To me - NOTHING beats it... Yeah, the 60 hits harder - but the SAW lets you hit MORE OFTEN - with its better reliability and greater cyclic rate. (Well, at least the version I had, back when it was new - could fire up to 1100 RPM!!!! 1100!!!!) I understand that they have castrated the poor thing and it fires at only 800 RPM.

The HK MG - never fired it, so I dont know about it.

The MK-19...

Beautiful. I understand HK also makes this type of system, but again - I have never seen it in person... only pictures. 40MM Grenades launched from a fully automatic, belt-fed weapon. Can you say "FUN AT PARTIES" ?

The Avenger Cannon in the A-10 is indeed the sweetest gun the US has... but you cant call that thing "Small Arms" Can you?

Think of this - Take an M-1, pull out the 120MM and put in 2 Avenger Cannons mounting on either side of the turret ZSU style... KILLER!

------------------
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

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March 14, 1999, 01:04 PM	#1
Floyd2U Member Join Date: January 10, 1999 Location: Home is Kentucky Posts: 73	Given Class 3 weapons are expensive, what is the best one? Endurance, price, ammo cost? ------------------ Join the NRA!!!

March 14, 1999, 06:18 PM	#2
Daren Thompson Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1998 Location: Elizabethtown,KY,USA Posts: 459	I feel they are all good!! except maybey a Cauchaut(or however U spell it). I personally would like a select fire AR-15 with telescoping stock and 11 inch barrel. Now at $3-5K for an AR I plan to purchase a Mac 10/11 in 9mm at Knob Creek. The gun can be found for under $1K and 9 mil can be found cheap. My $.02 worth Later Daren

March 14, 1999, 11:03 PM	#3
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Floyd2U, if you'll expound just a bit on what you might want to do with your Class III? Aside from turning money into noise? Your question is sorta like, "What's the best vehicle?" or "Whose shooting school is best?". Lotsa guys happy to help, but need more to go on. Regards, Art

March 15, 1999, 04:27 AM	#4
Floyd2U Member Join Date: January 10, 1999 Location: Home is Kentucky Posts: 73	Probably turning money into noise would be my primary purpose for a full auto. I was looking for one that would hold up without alot of maintenance problems. With the cost of ammo, prefer a 9mm, .223, or a 7.62X39...Of course if there's a reliable .22 full auto out there, I could probably be persuaded to go that route... ------------------ Join the NRA!!!

March 15, 1999, 10:54 AM	#5
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	The American 180 came in a full auto version (.22lr).

March 15, 1999, 11:24 AM	#6
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	What's the mission? Given no restriction on costs (ammo & gun), I'd go with the M16 (quad 50 on a M3 half track). The HK MP5 family as made in Germany has held up very well. Per Frank James (Project 64), Kennedy Space Center's MP5 serial #316019 held up to 571,600 rounds fired. While parts were replaced, the headspace on the barrel couldn't be corrected anymore and Kennedy decided to buy a new gun rather than rebuild 316019. Shucks. They could have rebuilt it and sold it to some civilian (thereby paying for their new gun). The newer UMP is very simplistic when compared to the MP5 family. Straight blowback with no locking rollers. It should have an even longer life span. To borrow from our Sergeant Carlin, "Da 10 be da One!"

March 15, 1999, 02:33 PM	#7
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I've found the M-16 to be very controllable on full auto. The "climb" is easily managed. Haven't shot an AK-47, but several Namvets have spoken highly of them. They're noted for reliability. I haven't cared for the "Greasegun" family, as the bolt is a fairly high percentage of the total mass of the gun. For me, recoil has been harder to manage, with the ensuing lack of accuracy or control. The old GI M-2 Carbine is another fun gun, particularly if you have a progressive reloader... Full auto is fun! so have fun...Art

March 17, 1999, 12:48 AM	#8
scottoworn Junior Member Join Date: March 17, 1999 Location: USA Posts: 1	Actually, the Mac11/9 is the best bargain in full-auto firearms that you can find now. Granted, the HK Family of firearms is the BEST that can be had in this world, there is a very limited supply of them available.And they ALL go for a premium price.The SWD Mac11/9's,for that matter, were mass-produced before the May 1986 cut-off date, and are STILL available on the market today.They are considered the most reliable sub-machinegun EVER made as conpared to any thing else out there, no price barred. An HK MP-5 is a work of art compared to a Mac, but is it worth $4000.00 or $5000.00 more? I don't think so. A Mac-11 is a VERY PROVEN bullet hose that is fun to shoot and can be more than effective in close-quarter combat.The only reason that they are "cheap" is that there are more available, but the supply is going down, so get yours while you still can! ------------------ What part of "infringed" don't you understand?

March 18, 1999, 05:08 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I'll put in a word for WW II stuff basically because it has historical interest. MP38/40s are pretty salty, but M3s and M3A1s are still affordable. Think about the STEN. It is is the quinesssential sub gun, plenty of parts and mags are still available and ammo is 9mmP. If you can get an amnesty registered gun (not a rebuild) it will have historical value also.

March 18, 1999, 06:02 PM	#10
Floyd2U Member Join Date: January 10, 1999 Location: Home is Kentucky Posts: 73	Thanks for all the input. ------------------ Join the NRA!!!

March 31, 1999, 09:00 PM	#11
Tripemaster Junior Member Join Date: March 12, 1999 Posts: 7	I went to Frontsite's free subgun seminar this year, and what they have is the MAC11. It was fun day, and the MAC could definitely fit the bill to turn money into noise quickly, but frankly the guns suck. Problems are that the sights are terrible and the trigger is very clunky. No accuracy at all at more than 10 yards even in semi-auto. They were designed to be cheap and disposable, and that is exactly what they are.

April 14, 1999, 01:29 AM	#12
Lahti20mm Junior Member Join Date: April 13, 1999 Location: Boise,Idaho,USA Posts: 6	I would strongly recommend an m16 for your first purchase if you can afford it. The first accessory you get is Cieners 22 kit for 160? makes it inexpensive to run and I've never seen anybody fail to giggle when you let them rip off a mag of 22 LR. just a hoot. Then you get a 9mm upper for around $400 and you have a family of weapons. This is just the start of your problems though. next you'll want a thompson cause they are just cool and then someday you will see a 50 cal and have to get one of them cause they are soooooo awesum, and then you start in the 20 MM world. I take it all back, get a cheaap hobby like heroin or crack cocane and save yourself a lot of money! The machine gun Anonymous meetings aren't worth a crap cause every body starts talking about guns and then we break up so we can go over to the range. We got smart with our group and save ourselves a lot of shakes and DT's now by haveing the meetings at the range. I don't know what AAs success rate is but so far we haven't cured a single person. about 15 range spectators caught it as well.

April 14, 1999, 05:45 AM	#13
Floyd2U Member Join Date: January 10, 1999 Location: Home is Kentucky Posts: 73	Thanks for the advice. My return from my taxes wasn't as big as expected so no Class 3 weapon this year. Know any drug dealers? (Just kidding)

April 26, 1999, 09:28 AM	#14
Gattling Member Join Date: December 18, 1998 Location: Lappeenranta, Finnland Posts: 49	Terve, Lahti ! U know what is the funniest way of turning money into noise ?? Those 20mm Lahti Antitank rifles converted to full auto operation for antiaircraft use. They fire at rate of aprox 550 rnds/min. Service use showed that the receiver can't take that pounding for a long time, but no human maybe short of Bill Gates can take the economical punishment of shooting the amount of ammo that would break one. That thing has more bollix in it than herd of bulls. Yeahhh, if I'm nice maybe I get to have one in next life Gattling =

May 9, 1999, 09:37 PM	#15
Ivan8883 Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 1999 Posts: 578	From:Ivan AK AK AK AK the most reliable of all selective fire weapons ever made and the easiest to maintain(truly a peoples friendly weapon) The flip side, of coarse, is finding one nowdays that wont bankrupt a person. Speaking of the 20m Lahti, when I was akid in the early 60's you could get one for $100.00 with 100 rds ammo delivered RE. Ah , the good old days when men were men and Silver was in our currency!

May 9, 1999, 09:39 PM	#16
Ivan8883 Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 1999 Posts: 578	From:Ivan AK AK AK AK the most reliable of all selective fire weapons ever made and the easiest to maintain(truly a peoples friendly weapon) The flip side, of coarse, is finding one nowdays that wont bankrupt a person. Speaking of the 20m Lahti, when I was akid in the early 60's you could get one for $100.00 with 100 rds ammo delivered RE. Ah , the good old days when men were men and Silver was in our currency!

May 10, 1999, 02:17 AM	#17
Floyd2U Member Join Date: January 10, 1999 Location: Home is Kentucky Posts: 73	Wish I could have been around to see that much freedom... With the way things are going I'll be lucky to keep my semi-auto's legally... ------------------ Join the NRA!!!

May 11, 1999, 10:06 AM	#18
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I think I agree with Scotto, the Mac weapons are pretty damn cheap and pretty reliable. I have shot both the 380 and the .45, and they are both fun weapons to "play" with. For the money. Obvisouly, if you want to spend three grand instead of of one, there are other weapons out there that should be fun and reliable, but for the money, the MAC has got to be the best "money into Noise" thing going.

May 14, 1999, 12:22 PM	#19
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	Mac are pretty good - but for a few dollars more you can get a good old fashioned UZI... 9mm or 45ACP. Uzi has a much better feel to it than the MACs. Better reliability, better accuracy as well. But for hunting Plinks - the .32 ACP Skorpion Machine Pistol is the King! Some one mentioned the STEN GUN... I will say that it is a great SMG - but whould rather have a Sterling any day. ------------------ RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE [This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited May 14, 1999).]

May 30, 1999, 05:43 PM	#20
Tripp Junior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 2	My Oerlikon 2cm Flak 29 is one of the best in my opinion. ------------------ Tripp Whitlow, Class 2 manufacturer / 07 Special Occupational Tax (SOT) paid "When trading projectiles, it's better to give than to receive." My eBay info web page: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/trippwhitlow/ "While I understand eBay has an ignorant position about firearms in general I am going to continue to use their server to assist me in my quest for maximum firepower!" Visit the Specwar pages @ http://www.specwarnet.net

June 5, 1999, 01:28 AM	#21
Riss Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Eastern, PA, USA Posts: 147	Well, having shot about half of the guns made. My $.02 would be on the HK MP5. M1 shoots good and controllable. Ar-15 - gets dirty quick but still a good shooter. Mac and variants are too small to control. The HK is comparable to driving a Rolls Royce. A joy to shoot and feels great in your hands when shooting full auto.

June 6, 1999, 05:16 AM	#22
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	I have an HK 91 with a registered sear. I think this "G3 wannabe" is the best full auto weapon going. Not only does it turn money into noise with the best of them, it can do it out to 1200 meters with outstanding accuracy. Try that with a 9mm or .45acp! Although, a Mac 10 .45acp or Mac 11 9mm bullet hose is a hoot to shoot. ~Blades~

June 9, 1999, 02:02 PM	#23
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	Okay - if your going there... The BEST full Auto is the Army's M-249 SAW. For a battle field weapon, I would rather have it than anything else. Unless I had the option of a Mk-19! ------------------ RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

June 10, 1999, 02:25 AM	#24
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	Okay Kodiac, if we're talking belt-fed, I think the GAU-8/A "Avenger" 30mm cannon, as found in A10 "Thunderbolt's", has to be the best full auto weapon. If we're talking man-portable belt-fed, then it would be a dead heat between the HK 21 and the M60 (any variant you like best...today). I've carried both the M249 SAW, and the M60 (not at the same time, unless my Rambo dream counts), and have always prefered to carry the M249 (lighter weight), but fire the M60 (longer reach, more force on contact, better assortment of destuctive projectiles). Only fired the HK 21 once, and it was GOOD! One Man's Opinion. ~Blades~

June 12, 1999, 07:54 AM	#25
Kodiac Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Posts: 1,173	Blades - You musta been a service member of some sorts... US ARMY over here... I packed the HOG aka M-60 over the river and through the woods many, many a time. When I was handed a M-249 SAW - SON! REVELATION! TRUE LOVE! It was more reliable, you could carry it further easier, and with more ammo... To me - NOTHING beats it... Yeah, the 60 hits harder - but the SAW lets you hit MORE OFTEN - with its better reliability and greater cyclic rate. (Well, at least the version I had, back when it was new - could fire up to 1100 RPM!!!! 1100!!!!) I understand that they have castrated the poor thing and it fires at only 800 RPM. The HK MG - never fired it, so I dont know about it. The MK-19... Beautiful. I understand HK also makes this type of system, but again - I have never seen it in person... only pictures. 40MM Grenades launched from a fully automatic, belt-fed weapon. Can you say "FUN AT PARTIES" ? The Avenger Cannon in the A-10 is indeed the sweetest gun the US has... but you cant call that thing "Small Arms" Can you? Think of this - Take an M-1, pull out the 120MM and put in 2 Avenger Cannons mounting on either side of the turret ZSU style... KILLER! ------------------ RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE