anyone ever see California Condor???

[Ranger Al]

80% (prime hunting areas) of California hunting lands will be require to use "non-toxic ammo"...
I'v seen the pic and it is urgly bird! Anyone ever use these non-toxic ammo, not suppose to have any trace of lead?

check out the website... http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/


Al

[grymster2007]

I've seen them at The Pinnacles National Monument. It's a huge bird.

[BIGR]

I saw some at the Grand Canyon. It is a big ugly bird with a long wingspan.

[Scorch]

I saw one years ago at Pinnacles National Monument. It is in what used to be called their "core area".

Nontoxic bullets are generally available (Barnes makes bullets out of solid copper). IIRC, Federal Premium comes loaded with Barnes bullets.

[tyrajam]

The triple shok is a solid copper bullet that functions as well as anything from what I've read, never shot them myself. This is more krazy kalifornia regs, how many condors do you think ever honestly ate a lead bullet from a gutpile?? Talk about a one in a million chance...

[Ranger Al]

Are you sure it wasn't "turkey vulture"? They too are big and urgly bird. I don't think any of the condo are killed by lead bullet. Just some stupid activist from Sexcramento who doesn't know what to do with their spare time! There is going to be alots of criminals out of good hunters this coming hunting season in California.

As for the condo, it is on the way to extinct. We should let it go along with the dinos and leave the hunters alone.

[Fat White Boy]

They eat good, too! Somewhere between a Bald Eagle and a Spotted Owl...

[Sgt.Fathead]

They've got one at the Bronx Zoo and it looked none too happy. I wouldn't want to live in a cage in the Bronx either...

[grymster2007]

Are you sure it wasn't "turkey vulture"? They too are big and urgly bird.

I have lots of turkey vultures around my house and while large, they are nowhere near the size of a CA Condor. I think a 6 foot wingspan and 3 or 4 lbs is average for a turkey vulture whereas the condor goes something like a 10 foot wingspan and 15 lbs.

[williamd]

In the wild in mtns north of LA ... not far from Reagan Ranch. Then, often in the San Diego Wild Animal Park!

Yep, big. At the Park there are usually vultures around for easy comparison.

These things are real exciting (as are vultures, eagles, geese, ...) when in a small plane!

[Beretta16]

Maybe they should also ban planes in kali because there's a risk of them getting hit by one.

[JJE]

I saw a pair over 30 years ago at either the LA or San Diego Zoo. Never in the wild. Maybe when I visit the Grand Canyon this spring.

[Ranger Al]

wow! Big and urgly bird! I still vote for them to be on their way with the dinos...

[BlondieStomp]

i saw a few at the grand canyon. They're really big. Silly california gun grabbing under the guise of environmentalism.

[The Tourist]

One of the best pastimes we all share is getting away from our jobs and spending our vacation or hunting in pristine areas.

I don't know about you guys, but unless you're a varmint hunter, you might expend perhaps one box of cartridges during the entire gun season in your area. And frankly, no one requires you to hunt in a condor area. You can go wherever you wish.

I'm a reloader. If I had to buy/cast a bullet out of non-toxic materials for a hunt, what's the problem? A four-wheel drive truck costs tens of thousands of dollars. A decent rifle and scope might cost another grand. Even warm hunting clothes and boots are several hundred dollars. And then there's fuel costs to the area...

So let's figure way off the charts. Let's say that "Chico's Magic Condor Free Bullets" cost ten bucks a pop. Even if it took a Mr. Magoo a five shot spray out of his semi-automatic rifle to drop his deer, it would still cost less than his pair of boots or restaurant food for a complete day.

The woman who sang at my wedding is using a box of 30-30 cartridges that are no longer produced. She fires one round for one deer. Yikes, if I charged her 100 bucks for every cartridge, it would still be the cheapest part of her hunt.

I don't want to breathe air from Gary, Indiana. I want to go where I don't have to chew the air I inhale. So what if I use a 'green bullet' for hunting. Just exactly how many rounds do you guys need to drop one animal?

[JohnKSa]

If I had to buy/cast a bullet out of non-toxic materials for a hunt, what's the problem?

The point is that they passed this law on the basis of information that was known to be, at best, ambiguous.

Our government should not be placing restrictions on the people (even restrictions that aren't particularly onerous) merely on the basis of what a few people think MIGHT be a good idea.

When the government adds to the restrictions it places on its citizens, it should have to demonstrate why those restrictions are NECESSARY by providing hard facts. It's NOT ok to pass laws simply because they don't cost the citizenry very much.

You can go wherever you wish.

No, you can NOT go wherever you wish if where you wish is now part of the restricted area.

The whole premise of your post is badly flawed. The idea that it is possible justify a law purely on the basis that it doesn't cost the citizens very much is antithetical to the ideas that this nation was founded upon.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Our government should not be placing restrictions on the people (even restrictions that aren't particularly onerous) merely on the basis of what a few people think MIGHT be a good idea.

We agree more than you think. As you know we are also having a debate on how many song-birds are being projected to be killed.

To that end, I cast bullets--for almost four decades--lead bullets. As a boy I remember the Milwaukee Gun Club shooting skeet over open water so the shot and clay birds would fall "harmlessly" into the river. We know better now.

The first thing we tell kids is not to eat paint. We recall Chinese toys and I've had my blood checked.

I'd cast bismuth if I had supplies and someone taught me how.

I don't think the range of a condor ties up that much land, nor is a hunter chained to one area. Lots of people come to Wisconsin, I go to South Dakota. Big deal.

The whole concept of Ducks Unlimited was a good one for both hunters and conservationists. This is just another facet of that idea. We just can't go on poisoning things out of carelessness.

[grymster2007]

We just can't go on poisoning things out of carelessness

Wise

When the government adds to the restrictions it places on its citizens, it should have to demonstrate why those restrictions are NECESSARY by providing hard facts

Wise

Silly california gun grabbing under the guise of environmentalism.

Wise

I still vote for them to be on their way with the dinos

Not so wise.

How about when deer, moose, hogs, ducks and elk are "on their way with the dinos"? I think then, we'll be on our "way with the dinos"!

[Barber2678]

I saw two condors at the Grand Canyon back in '99. It was a very neat sight.

People have a hard time with lead, but most don't understand how it can affect you. It has to be in dissolved form for your body to absorb. That is why a lead bullet in your leg (or elsewhere) will not kill you (if you make it through the being shot part).

[JohnKSa]

As you know we are also having a debate on how many song-birds are being projected to be killed.

The two debates are not similar.

While the absolute number of song-birds killed may be in question (as with any estimate), the study leaves no doubt that the magnitude of the problem is significant. There is also no doubt as to what is killing the songbirds and no contradictory studies have surfaced, to my knowledge.

The bullet ban under discussion on this thread was based on a study which claimed that the source of lead found in condor blood was from lead bullets but omitted critical data which contradicted the conclusion of the study. Further studies to determine the source of the lead indicated that it could not be traced to the use of lead bullets in hunting. The law was passed anyway.

In one case the evidence is clear, only the exact size of the problem is in question--and even if the number from the study were found to be a magnitude too large, the problem is still critical. In the second case there is both contradictory evidence and a lack of evidence.

I don't think the range of a condor ties up that much land...

Looks like a lot to me. But the point is moot--it is logically bankrupt to justify laws purely on the basis that they won't hurt people too much. There needs to be a clear and verifiable benefit.

[stinger]

To me, the biggest part of the ban is that it is only the first of many steps. I bet that if this ban holds up for five more years, it will also have spread throughout most of the state, and maybe into other western states.

It won't be long that lead bullets will be banned at shooting ranges as well because mosquitos *might* be put at risk from lead poisoning.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by stinger

It won't be long that lead bullets will be banned at shooting ranges as well because mosquitos *might* be put at risk from lead poisoning.

In a very realistic way, I can easily see where lead will be phased out of bullet making. And I'm not even sure it's a bad idea. The constant refinement in making firearms has been going on for many centuries.

Look, even the way we make primers has changed a lot since WWII.

I've cast bullets for several decades. I remember when I started. I used to "gang cast" with a riding buddy in his basement. He was a smoker, and we cast, smoked, even drank coffee and ate lunch down there exposing ourselves to every toxin under the sun.

Within just a few years, we cast outside using masks and eye protection. And I no longer kept ingots inside my home.

Now we no longer even let children play with Chinese toys, much less lick them.

I can see a time very soon when bullets will be cast of bismuth, or entirely encapsulated. Would it be so bad if our plinking bullets were made from a completely inert material?

In Wisconsin, war materials for Vietnam were made on a huge chunk of land we call Badger Ordnance. This facility was handled in such a sloppy manner that fires were commonplace, spills were everywhere and now base metals leach into ground water.

There is a scene in the movie Erin Brochovich where water is served to polluters taken from their own wells. They decide not to drink it.

I don't think the most diehard lead bullet fan would drink water from the Badger Ordnance aquifer, unless you're not getting enough mercury, lead, and other base metals several times the limits designated by government as dangerous.

I don't think I'd even wash my truck in that stuff.

[JohnKSa]

Would it be so bad if our plinking bullets were made from a completely inert material?

As long as people didn't mind their plinking ammo costing them around 10 times more--and that price difference would increase as the demand for Bismuth went up as a result of the switchover from lead. Lead is also more dense which makes for a better ballistic coefficient, all things being equal and is about 3 times softer than Bismuth. The softness of lead is a big plus for the king of the plinking calibers, the .22LR. I doubt that there are many .22LR firearms with bores that would hold up to much use with projectiles that are made of the harder Bismuth.

Look, even the way we make primers has changed a lot since WWII.

YES, they've gotten a lot better--and now they contain lead.

Seriously, the elimination of lead projectiles is not a "refinement" of firearms design, it is actually a step backwards in terms of firearm performance. There may be other benefits from eliminating lead bullets, but to imply that it's a good idea from a firearms design standpoint is not based in fact.

I don't think the most diehard lead bullet fan would drink water from the Badger Ordnance aquifer...

It would be more reasonable to say something like: "I don't think the most diehard carbon tetrachloride fan would drink water from the Badger Ordnance aquifer..." In other words, while it's a spectacularly good example of manmade pollution it's hardly a problem caused by "lead bullets".

[Ranger Al]

I am with "Stinger" If you looks at the map where it is being regulated. These lands are all unpopulated and the area in between are filled with cities and highways. You have to ask yourself, it is like a spong sooner or later they would creap upward toward the north. When Billy Clinton was at the endd of his term, he "monumented some of the prime hunting ground near King Canyon National Park". I am thinking of if Hillary take office we are going to lost more hunting ground or won't be able to own gun.

Fokes, please go to the poll and vote and vote wisly. Politicians are all evils, we just have to vote for the lesser of the evil one.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

As long as people didn't mind their plinking ammo costing them around 10 times more

Initially, I agree. But I also feel that any innovation, like computers and cell phones, gets cheaper as technology progresses.

Sure, I like to shoot and drive my motorcycle. But the fact is that we can't keep treating the world like a toilet without some serious side effects.

Lots of people like to come to certain areas in Wisconsin to see a thriving bald eagle population. We almost lost our national system by over using DDT which softens their eggs. I don't know what causes CWD, but we could lose our deer and elk if it goes unchecked.

We make adjustments in all facets of technology. For example, anybody can easily see the refinements in my 2004 Dyna when compared with a 1930's flathead Harley. Time marches on.

And frankly, I don't want to live in a world where every breath smells like an ashtray, or the soil is tainted with mercury, the fish are dying and the forest game are scarce. Do you really want an EPA filter has to be attached to everything? We already have a problem with litter from old computers and cell phones and that's a new wrinkle less than 20 years old.

Perhaps the problem is the condor. It's not a cute animal nor do many hunters want one.

However, if trophy bucks where dying at an alarming rate, or withering down to 80 pounds with racks not fit to display, the same hunters would be marching on Washington demanding an answer.

In my area there's Wyalusing State Park. Ever since I was kid there's been a monument to the idea of sloth, filth, greed and over hunting. It's a monument to the Passenger Pigeon.

http://www.ulala.org/P_Pigeon/Monument.html

This is the future of hunting if we don't start cleaning up our messes and begin thinking beyond the end of our noses.