Most accurate cartridge at ...

C7AR15 · July 28, 2014, 02:14 PM

I just recently have been shooting some bench rest at 100, 200 and 300Yds.

The calibre that rules at 100yds is the 6mmPPC with 30BR close behind,
but in a recent match a .308 won the 300Yd match.

Here is the question to you OCD accuracy buffs,

what calibre dominates at these distances 50yds, 100yds, 200yds,
300yds, 500yds and 1000yds.

My guess for 50yds would be the .22LR

(With all due respect to rifle shooters and hunters who love their gun.)
I would like responses from rifle competitors who have shot these distances under match conditions.

signed a Newbie to the accuracy game JD

Sevens · July 28, 2014, 02:26 PM

Hahaha, and -ONLY- because you pointed it out energetically with boldface type, but I'm getting a nice giggle from the Canadian bent "calibre" posted by the BC guy who is explicitly asking for feedback in YARDS!

However, I will note that most older Canadians that I know remind me that they had a whole life of "normal" units of measure before the Metric system came in to their day to day dealings.

What can I say...
Half my family are Canadians.

Unlicensed Dremel · July 28, 2014, 02:46 PM

Quote:

what calibre dominates at these distances 50yds, 100yds, 200yds,
300yds, 500yds and 1000yds.

On the 500 to 1000 yard (very long ranges)....

Depends on the type of shooting (competition rules) - for "practical shooting" which can be any number of distances in one match, but including very long ranges, the answer nowadays is virtually a dead heat between 6.0 and 6.5mm:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/0...-the-pros-use/

But note that the higher placers on average use 6.0 mm, not 6.5mm.

For other shoot types, like F-Class (not counting F/TR), I don't know the answer, but suspect it's more of 6.5 and 7.0mm, rather than 6.0 and 6.5mm.

As for the 50, 100, 200, and 300, I don't know the answer. Likely those two you mention.... mostly the 6mm (in the form of 6mm PPC, 6 BR, etc.).

MarkCO · July 28, 2014, 03:14 PM

Talk about a loaded question?

If I can use a pressure barrel in a vice, in a ballistic tube, and choose bullet profiles, the answer will be different. I also will assume you are not going to consider the CheyTacs and BMGs, some of which have machined bullets with BCs over 1.0, some into the 1.5 and 1.6 range. While true they are ELR cartridges, they do pretty good at 1000 if you can afford the price of a 6pack per round fired.

Also, as I am sure you know, bullet profiles, like Berger VLDs can make any caliber look good. Also, flat base bullets tend to have a slight accuracy edge out to about 200, depending on the diameter, then the boat-tails take over. Still, rebated base OTM machined bullets even in the smaller calibers have better BCs and technically are more accurate than even the VLDs.

50 and 100 yards, I'd be looking for the highest velocity with a decent BC...that gives the edge to the .22 calibers like the .204 and .22-250 .22PPC at velocities into the 3500+ fps range. 200 to 500 yards I'd go to the 6mms, 6PPC, 6x47, .243AI and other similar pushing VLDs over 3000 fps. 1000 yards, while the 6mms are still very good, there are lots of choices if you can consistently launch a High BC bullet weighing from about 110 to 300 grains at the same MV time after time. The precision of the loaded round is more important at range because the small differences are amplified.

I don't shoot Benchrest anymore...the pace was a tad slow for me. But I do shoot in other precision based competitions. That said, the accuracy I was able to obtain for the few months I tinker with Schuetzen rifles was amazing. The care and consideration of the load, the consistency and even the piece of brass was amazing.

Bart B. · July 28, 2014, 05:47 PM

Title asks what cartridge. Text asks what calibre (or caliber; same as metre or meter in the metric system). Cartridge is the case shape and dimension. Caliber's the size of the hole in the cartridge case neck.

What do you want; specifically?

Accuracy means different things to different people.

One is the smallest group(s) produced with a few bullets that happens once in the lifetime of a bunch of rifles grouped together all shooting the same cartridge. At the other extreme, which I like, is the biggest group the stuff shoots; that's what one can count on all the time. In between is mean radius of all shots fired in a test group (one 3-shot at 100 yards to 250 to 300 shots at 600 yards like arsenals do). Or the average of a few 3- to 5- shot groups which in reality will have all their groups put in one composite with all shots will have an extreme spread bigger than the largest few-shot group. There is no standard everyone follows defining "accuracy."

What's your definition of accuracy?

The .22 long rifle is not nearly as accurate at 50 yards as many centerfire cartridges are. Rimfire match ammo, at its best in the best barrels will be in the 1/8th inch to 3/16ths inch size at 50 yards.

And there's not much difference in accuracy at 1000 yards across everything used at that range. The best of the bolt action versions will keep all record shots inside 5 to 6 inches at 1K yards in stable atmospheric conditions. Same for stuff shot at medium ranges and short ranges which includes what's shot at 100 and 200 yard indoor ranges where Sierra and Berger Bullets test their stuff under 1/4 MOA. Look up the benchrest aggreate group sizes for at least six 10-shot groups then multiply that by 4; their largest group in the aggregate is typically 2 to 3 times the size of their average which is the aggregate. The NBRSA and IBS web sites have records listed; those are the smallest ones shot and all the others are much, much larger.

C7AR15 · July 28, 2014, 06:14 PM

what I do want to know is the cartridge, that wins the most at the distances I have posted.

I least I didn't say "Slug"

MarkCO · July 28, 2014, 06:39 PM

Quote:

what I do want to know is the cartridge, that wins the most at the distances I have posted.

Much easier question...the cartridge the best shooter is using that day. No magic pills. Quality ammo in a quality rifle with a great shooter will beat the best ammo in the best rifle with a quality shooter every day, even more so past 600 yards.

Bart B. · July 28, 2014, 10:31 PM

Cartridges favored by those competitors producing best results.

50 yards; .22 long rifle rimfire

100, 200 & 300 yards; 22 and 6mm ppc, BR or others of that size in benchrest. 6XC in high power match rifles shot from standing, sitting and prone. .223 Rem/5.56 NATO in service rifles. The best of these shoot under 1/4 MOA at 100, 3/8 MOA at 200 and 1/2 MOA at 300.

500 and 600 yards; 6XC in high power match rifles, various 6mm and 6.5mm in F-class. 6XC in high power match rifles shot from standing, sitting and prone. .223 Rem/5.56 NATO in service rifles. Best of these shoot under 4/10 to 1/2 MOA at 500 or 600 yards.

800, 900 & 1000 yards; 6mm Dasher and other 6mm's at 1000 in benchrest when wind's are calm, 30 caliber magnums when its windy. .308 Win. in Palma matches shot at 800, 900 & 1000 yards from prone with 155's or heavier bullets. High power match rifle prone matches, 6.5x.284 and sometimes 30 caliber magnums. Best of these shoot under 5/10 to 6/10 MOA at these ranges .308 Win/7.62 NATO in service rifles at 1000 and the best will shoot under 3/4 MOA.

Note the accuracy numbers are based on testing the rifles and ammo in free recoil or as close to it as possible in stable conditions. Results in competition when rifles are hand held, such as in prone (the steadiest position), will be 3 times their basic accuracy level. Smallest groups shot happen when all the ammo and rifle variables tend to cancel each other out. Biggest ones happen when all those variables add up together.

Check out www.accurateshooter.com then sign up on their forum to ask your question. There's folks there who compete in the benchrest disciplines who'll refine my answers down somewhat.

Meanwhile, the following has good info on various cartridges used and some history about others: http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartr...on-cartridges/

Deja vu · July 28, 2014, 10:50 PM

id say 17 HMR for shorter ranges and 338 Lapua or 50 BMG for long range.

Bart B. · July 29, 2014, 06:52 AM

I don't think those three cartridges are accurate enough to be competitive in the competition disciplines asked about. None are used that I know of.

17 HMR's cannot be reloaded for accuracy tuning and I don't think their rifles are accurate enough. None of them will keep all shots under 1 inch at 100 or 2/5 inch at 50 yards. They're not allowed in any sanctioned rimfire competitive discipline I know of; only 22 rimfire is.

That 338 and 50 have way too much recoil to shoot as precisely as the smaller cartridges do.

The 50 BMG has been used in the Fifty Caliber Shooters Assn. matches where it's the only one used. https://www.google.com/search?q=fcsa...&client=safari

old roper · July 29, 2014, 07:12 PM

C7AR15, Most BR matches are either IBS or NBRSA each has their own set of rules.

When I first moved to Co I shot NBRSA, now most everything is IBS.

I'm not sure what type matches you are shooting so hard to say which is more accurate. Benchrest matches I shot 100yd yards light rifle was 5 relay and one target each relay 5 shot group plus sighters and average of those 5 target won at each yardage 100,200,300yds in Light rifle,Heavy and Unlimited.

I've been out of match shooting but still shoot tight neck 6ppc. It may be nice to win 100yds or 200yards but the big win is 2gun agg. You have to shoot Heavy/Light rifle, 100/200yds each weight and they average all four targets. The big wins for over 30 yrs has been the 6ppc and winning groups hasn't changed much considering how much the rifles and reloading changed.

Their lot that tell you about BR and never shot it so be little careful listening to them.

Tony Boyer has won just about every big match last 30yr he is MR Benchrest.

There one Big Match held every year in May called the Super Shoot. Tony Boyer won the 2gun Agg with group .2620" average of those 4 targets in 1987. In 2013 Gene Bukys won 2gun agg with .2728" group and Tony Boyer was 4th with .2827" and all those wins were with 6ppc. 2011 winning agg 2 gun was .2553" and 2012 was .2689". 1987 Ferris Pendell was 20th in the 2gun agg with .3119 with the famous 6ppc that he helped develope with his partner. Never count Tony out he was hot 2014 and he won two gun agg with group .2164" and light rifle 6ppc he used Bat action, Bartlein barrel and heavy rifle 6ppc Hart action,Bartlein barrel and 1987 he used Lilja barrels.

If you want to learn BR try http://benchrest.com/

C7AR15 · July 30, 2014, 12:56 PM

Thanks for all the good info and the links to different "accuracy" websites.

"even more so past 600 yards." It didn't take long to figure that the further out you go (even 300Yds) that the winds effect on bullets separates the field pretty quick.
The best shooter at the club is uncanny at reading the wind and usually wins despite the fact that other shooters are using the same equipment.

One comment I over heard was that on a calm and windless day that the match just became a "trigger pulling contest"

I am quite happy with this new game - even if it borders on Obsessive compulsive disorder!

Bart B. · July 31, 2014, 01:40 PM

My observations and experiences have got me to believe that the top 5% of all shoulder-fired rifle competitors using three shooting positions have guns and ammo with virtual identical accuracy levels. Those that do the best jobs of holding still and making sight corrections for wind end up on the medal platform.

The dimensions of their groups on bullseye targets are typically 3 to 5 times as big as their equipment accuracy at target range.

So may well be the same for F-classers and benchresters. But their group sizes have much smaller multiples of their equipment's inheirant accuracy.

reynolds357 · August 2, 2014, 10:23 PM

From what I have seen in the last few years, .30 br is the cartridge to beat at 100 yards. At 200, .30 Br, 6br, and 6PPC seem to be about dead even. 200-400, the 6 PPC and 6BR are about on par with each other. From 400 to 1000 all kinds of cartridges do about equally well. 6Br and .284 Winchester seem to be the most popular at the moment. On a windy day, they will probably both get beat by a .338 Lapua.

July 28, 2014, 02:14 PM	#1
C7AR15 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Location: Burnaby Posts: 260	Most accurate cartridge at ... I just recently have been shooting some bench rest at 100, 200 and 300Yds. The calibre that rules at 100yds is the 6mmPPC with 30BR close behind, but in a recent match a .308 won the 300Yd match. Here is the question to you OCD accuracy buffs, what calibre dominates at these distances 50yds, 100yds, 200yds, 300yds, 500yds and 1000yds. My guess for 50yds would be the .22LR (With all due respect to rifle shooters and hunters who love their gun.) I would like responses from rifle competitors who have shot these distances under match conditions. signed a Newbie to the accuracy game JD

July 28, 2014, 02:26 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Hahaha, and -ONLY- because you pointed it out energetically with boldface type, but I'm getting a nice giggle from the Canadian bent "calibre" posted by the BC guy who is explicitly asking for feedback in YARDS! However, I will note that most older Canadians that I know remind me that they had a whole life of "normal" units of measure before the Metric system came in to their day to day dealings. What can I say... Half my family are Canadians. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

July 28, 2014, 03:14 PM	#4
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,308	Talk about a loaded question? If I can use a pressure barrel in a vice, in a ballistic tube, and choose bullet profiles, the answer will be different. I also will assume you are not going to consider the CheyTacs and BMGs, some of which have machined bullets with BCs over 1.0, some into the 1.5 and 1.6 range. While true they are ELR cartridges, they do pretty good at 1000 if you can afford the price of a 6pack per round fired. Also, as I am sure you know, bullet profiles, like Berger VLDs can make any caliber look good. Also, flat base bullets tend to have a slight accuracy edge out to about 200, depending on the diameter, then the boat-tails take over. Still, rebated base OTM machined bullets even in the smaller calibers have better BCs and technically are more accurate than even the VLDs. 50 and 100 yards, I'd be looking for the highest velocity with a decent BC...that gives the edge to the .22 calibers like the .204 and .22-250 .22PPC at velocities into the 3500+ fps range. 200 to 500 yards I'd go to the 6mms, 6PPC, 6x47, .243AI and other similar pushing VLDs over 3000 fps. 1000 yards, while the 6mms are still very good, there are lots of choices if you can consistently launch a High BC bullet weighing from about 110 to 300 grains at the same MV time after time. The precision of the loaded round is more important at range because the small differences are amplified. I don't shoot Benchrest anymore...the pace was a tad slow for me. But I do shoot in other precision based competitions. That said, the accuracy I was able to obtain for the few months I tinker with Schuetzen rifles was amazing. The care and consideration of the load, the consistency and even the piece of brass was amazing. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

July 28, 2014, 05:47 PM	#5
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Title asks what cartridge. Text asks what calibre (or caliber; same as metre or meter in the metric system). Cartridge is the case shape and dimension. Caliber's the size of the hole in the cartridge case neck. What do you want; specifically? Accuracy means different things to different people. One is the smallest group(s) produced with a few bullets that happens once in the lifetime of a bunch of rifles grouped together all shooting the same cartridge. At the other extreme, which I like, is the biggest group the stuff shoots; that's what one can count on all the time. In between is mean radius of all shots fired in a test group (one 3-shot at 100 yards to 250 to 300 shots at 600 yards like arsenals do). Or the average of a few 3- to 5- shot groups which in reality will have all their groups put in one composite with all shots will have an extreme spread bigger than the largest few-shot group. There is no standard everyone follows defining "accuracy." What's your definition of accuracy? The .22 long rifle is not nearly as accurate at 50 yards as many centerfire cartridges are. Rimfire match ammo, at its best in the best barrels will be in the 1/8th inch to 3/16ths inch size at 50 yards. And there's not much difference in accuracy at 1000 yards across everything used at that range. The best of the bolt action versions will keep all record shots inside 5 to 6 inches at 1K yards in stable atmospheric conditions. Same for stuff shot at medium ranges and short ranges which includes what's shot at 100 and 200 yard indoor ranges where Sierra and Berger Bullets test their stuff under 1/4 MOA. Look up the benchrest aggreate group sizes for at least six 10-shot groups then multiply that by 4; their largest group in the aggregate is typically 2 to 3 times the size of their average which is the aggregate. The NBRSA and IBS web sites have records listed; those are the smallest ones shot and all the others are much, much larger. Last edited by Bart B.; July 29, 2014 at 09:03 AM.

July 28, 2014, 06:14 PM	#6
C7AR15 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Location: Burnaby Posts: 260	correction what I do want to know is the cartridge, that wins the most at the distances I have posted. I least I didn't say "Slug"

July 28, 2014, 10:31 PM	#8
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Cartridges favored by those competitors producing best results. 50 yards; .22 long rifle rimfire 100, 200 & 300 yards; 22 and 6mm ppc, BR or others of that size in benchrest. 6XC in high power match rifles shot from standing, sitting and prone. .223 Rem/5.56 NATO in service rifles. The best of these shoot under 1/4 MOA at 100, 3/8 MOA at 200 and 1/2 MOA at 300. 500 and 600 yards; 6XC in high power match rifles, various 6mm and 6.5mm in F-class. 6XC in high power match rifles shot from standing, sitting and prone. .223 Rem/5.56 NATO in service rifles. Best of these shoot under 4/10 to 1/2 MOA at 500 or 600 yards. 800, 900 & 1000 yards; 6mm Dasher and other 6mm's at 1000 in benchrest when wind's are calm, 30 caliber magnums when its windy. .308 Win. in Palma matches shot at 800, 900 & 1000 yards from prone with 155's or heavier bullets. High power match rifle prone matches, 6.5x.284 and sometimes 30 caliber magnums. Best of these shoot under 5/10 to 6/10 MOA at these ranges .308 Win/7.62 NATO in service rifles at 1000 and the best will shoot under 3/4 MOA. Note the accuracy numbers are based on testing the rifles and ammo in free recoil or as close to it as possible in stable conditions. Results in competition when rifles are hand held, such as in prone (the steadiest position), will be 3 times their basic accuracy level. Smallest groups shot happen when all the ammo and rifle variables tend to cancel each other out. Biggest ones happen when all those variables add up together. Check out www.accurateshooter.com then sign up on their forum to ask your question. There's folks there who compete in the benchrest disciplines who'll refine my answers down somewhat. Meanwhile, the following has good info on various cartridges used and some history about others: http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartr...on-cartridges/ Last edited by Bart B.; July 28, 2014 at 10:57 PM.

July 28, 2014, 10:50 PM	#9
Deja vu Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Border of Idaho & Montana Posts: 2,584	id say 17 HMR for shorter ranges and 338 Lapua or 50 BMG for long range. __________________ Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull. all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...

July 29, 2014, 06:52 AM	#10
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	I don't think those three cartridges are accurate enough to be competitive in the competition disciplines asked about. None are used that I know of. 17 HMR's cannot be reloaded for accuracy tuning and I don't think their rifles are accurate enough. None of them will keep all shots under 1 inch at 100 or 2/5 inch at 50 yards. They're not allowed in any sanctioned rimfire competitive discipline I know of; only 22 rimfire is. That 338 and 50 have way too much recoil to shoot as precisely as the smaller cartridges do. The 50 BMG has been used in the Fifty Caliber Shooters Assn. matches where it's the only one used. https://www.google.com/search?q=fcsa...&client=safari Last edited by Bart B.; July 29, 2014 at 09:13 AM.

July 29, 2014, 07:12 PM	#11
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	C7AR15, Most BR matches are either IBS or NBRSA each has their own set of rules. When I first moved to Co I shot NBRSA, now most everything is IBS. I'm not sure what type matches you are shooting so hard to say which is more accurate. Benchrest matches I shot 100yd yards light rifle was 5 relay and one target each relay 5 shot group plus sighters and average of those 5 target won at each yardage 100,200,300yds in Light rifle,Heavy and Unlimited. I've been out of match shooting but still shoot tight neck 6ppc. It may be nice to win 100yds or 200yards but the big win is 2gun agg. You have to shoot Heavy/Light rifle, 100/200yds each weight and they average all four targets. The big wins for over 30 yrs has been the 6ppc and winning groups hasn't changed much considering how much the rifles and reloading changed. Their lot that tell you about BR and never shot it so be little careful listening to them. Tony Boyer has won just about every big match last 30yr he is MR Benchrest. There one Big Match held every year in May called the Super Shoot. Tony Boyer won the 2gun Agg with group .2620" average of those 4 targets in 1987. In 2013 Gene Bukys won 2gun agg with .2728" group and Tony Boyer was 4th with .2827" and all those wins were with 6ppc. 2011 winning agg 2 gun was .2553" and 2012 was .2689". 1987 Ferris Pendell was 20th in the 2gun agg with .3119 with the famous 6ppc that he helped develope with his partner. Never count Tony out he was hot 2014 and he won two gun agg with group .2164" and light rifle 6ppc he used Bat action, Bartlein barrel and heavy rifle 6ppc Hart action,Bartlein barrel and 1987 he used Lilja barrels. If you want to learn BR try http://benchrest.com/ __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

July 30, 2014, 12:56 PM	#12
C7AR15 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2011 Location: Burnaby Posts: 260	even more so past 600 yards. Thanks for all the good info and the links to different "accuracy" websites. "even more so past 600 yards." It didn't take long to figure that the further out you go (even 300Yds) that the winds effect on bullets separates the field pretty quick. The best shooter at the club is uncanny at reading the wind and usually wins despite the fact that other shooters are using the same equipment. One comment I over heard was that on a calm and windless day that the match just became a "trigger pulling contest" I am quite happy with this new game - even if it borders on Obsessive compulsive disorder!

July 31, 2014, 01:40 PM	#13
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	My observations and experiences have got me to believe that the top 5% of all shoulder-fired rifle competitors using three shooting positions have guns and ammo with virtual identical accuracy levels. Those that do the best jobs of holding still and making sight corrections for wind end up on the medal platform. The dimensions of their groups on bullseye targets are typically 3 to 5 times as big as their equipment accuracy at target range. So may well be the same for F-classers and benchresters. But their group sizes have much smaller multiples of their equipment's inheirant accuracy. Last edited by Bart B.; August 1, 2014 at 08:01 AM.

August 2, 2014, 10:23 PM	#14
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	From what I have seen in the last few years, .30 br is the cartridge to beat at 100 yards. At 200, .30 Br, 6br, and 6PPC seem to be about dead even. 200-400, the 6 PPC and 6BR are about on par with each other. From 400 to 1000 all kinds of cartridges do about equally well. 6Br and .284 Winchester seem to be the most popular at the moment. On a windy day, they will probably both get beat by a .338 Lapua.