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Old March 16, 2009, 10:57 AM   #126
Flat Tire
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Old March 16, 2009, 01:14 PM   #127
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People in this country have been misled by people like Mr. PlayboyP; and so, we are doomed to suffer the effects of re-wilding that overzealous biologists with an agenda foist on us here in Idaho.

Our family used to participate in a Family Reunion at the 4H camp just below Galena Summit, but will no longer do so because of the wolves in that area. It's just become too dangerous for all our small children.

I would think that the wolves in the area around Ketchum, Sun Valley and Hailey will take quite a toll on the tourism there also. It's a shame that we have to suffer here in OUR state because of a few dimwits in Washington.
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Old March 16, 2009, 04:32 PM   #128
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Big Bill says;
It's a shame that we have to suffer here in OUR state because of a few dimwits in Washington.
It was the @#$%@ %$&$#@$$ federal judge in Calaforny that caused us all the problems in MN. And that goes for the BS about the Canadian Lynx also.
I would suspect the science that was presented to the Judge was overruled by the little lady of the house that made reference to His Honor may find sleeping on the couch a reality unless her social club full of bunny hugger's get their way.
Wait, what am I saying! That's not the way the system works
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Old March 16, 2009, 06:21 PM   #129
Art Eatman
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My thread drift is all Gbro's fault: There was a public hearing about the use of 1080 poison cartridges in coyote trapping. I think in Denver, but I won't swear to it.

At any rate, one quite elderly little woman offers her opinion that instead of trapping, the male coyotes should be live-trapped and neutered.

Unfortunately for the decorum of the meeting, Slim Pickens was there. He commented rather firmly, "Ma'am, the problem ain't that the coyotes are raping the sheep; they're eating them."

A cynic, upon hearing that lady's comment, might come to consider the notion that there is derangement inovolved in wildlife issues, and it's contagious. Where is H. L. Mencken, now that we really need him?
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Old March 16, 2009, 08:56 PM   #130
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re:Roy R

Your link on post 119 left out the red wolf.

However I noticed a wolf recovery plan for the New England states, north east US (Eastern timber wolf) that I had not known of last I did
a wolf recovery plan study they (the Feds) were focused on the Idaho - Wyoming - Montana wolf recovery, New Mexico and Arizona ( Mexican wolf) and Red wolf in the southeast.

Here is a Defenders of wildlife link on the red wolf - very pro wolf group.

http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_an...e/red_wolf.php

When I lived in Virginia I read Defenders of Wildlife news. All the poor coyotes in the west were being hunted to death- no mercy, (they said. ) Then I moved west and heard the coyote song everywhere. D of W are hoakey to me now. They get lots of money from city people for the wolf program. City people like me in Virginia, who believe the things I had read... until I went west and learned a different song from experience and living the life, not reading about it in a book.

I rode shotgun with my husband when we married. One guy was killing a moose, Gene gets out of the PU to check the deal and says to me, if I get in trouble get out with the shotgun. Do I get training? Do we have time for training?

...but what if I hit you? I am better off if you shoot the gun than not if I get in trouble, he says to me.

I told Gene you wanted links to my stories. He told me I interviewed the guy in the field who had the experience and that makes it a first hand account, and I would be the link, or source. I guess most wives in the US do not ride shotgun for their Fish and Game husband. It was not unusual then, because our back country sherrif deputy had his wife ride shotgun for him, but she got gun training on the range. Maybe I should have married a cop?
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Old March 16, 2009, 08:59 PM   #131
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There, I fixed your error...
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Old March 16, 2009, 09:22 PM   #132
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counting Idaho elk

Gene would fly in the winter to get an elk count. There was always a fudge factor, because the elk in the timber can not be seen of course. We wanted 25 bulls per 100 cows. We had 17, then 9 , our count dropped at every count. I think they flew about every other year. This was in the late 1980-'s-1990's.

We rode horses and packed in, Gene with his Idaho decker, and me with my sawbuck pack saddle. Our biggest fights were over wich way to pack a horse was best, LOL> Up Kelly Creek in the spring we went, and Weitas. Gene told of seeing 200 elk in the meadows. Snow was still in the higher mountains. I saw maybe 25-35 elk. Over time our spring rides the elk count dropped to 3-5. This was before the wolf introduction.

Idaho had few elk in the early 1900's. In the 1930's F and G brought them in on box cars from Yellowstone. Our herds grew, maybe peaked in 1950, then began to drop. In 1988 we still had a lot of elk in the Clearwatrr River drainage. Way more elk than Colorado, where I had come from.

Gene did not like the way the elk were managed, and had an idea how to do things better for long term management. Wolves were brought in on an elk herd struggling to recover. The elk continued to drop. New Game Wardens who replaced Gene after he retired told me our elk counts were better than they had ever been. I knew the history, I walked the land, and I knew better.

My environmentalist friends told me the elk have never been better. Wolves recover healthy elk herds, they told me. I don't know; perhaps this is the politically correct story?

When wolves came to the Clearwater from Canada, Gene was at the end of his career, ands ready to retire. The new officer told us he could not talk about wolves, or the wolf- elk impact for 5 years. Does this mean a gag order was issued? Perhaps it is all hearsay?

I am not good at gag orders. It was a good time to retire.
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Old March 16, 2009, 09:25 PM   #133
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Thanks Brent. I quit talking southern when I got to Colorado because they thought I wuz from Texas and that was bad...

I own two hog dogs by the way...
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Old March 16, 2009, 09:45 PM   #134
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I *LOVE* wolves. I don't fear them and I think they are needed in Nature.

I don't live near wolves. So I've never been threatened by any them and I don't raise cattle so I don't directly feel their presence.

I think it totally stupid to deny the evidence of those who have experienced them at close quarters.

I don't see any reason why a pack of wolves COULD NOT attack and eat a human even if it's not at all commonplace. Would I pay attention if I were in wolf country? Hell yes, I would. I *KNOW* they eat dogs. And if one is by him or herself I think you might be harrassed - especially in winter when more work is required to bring down game.

Interestingly enough, last month while at a Border's in downtown Ann Arbor, MI there was an article in one magazine that had an old photo from 1911 of a killed wolf hanging from a pole. It was 7 ft 11" long, 12.75" across the skull and 185 lbs gutted. The wolf was taken in the Upper Peninsula, Michigan. I was not aware that they got that large. I figured 120 lbs for a male would be an average and maybe 150 lbs for the larger ones in Canada.

There is nothing physical stopping a wolf from successfully bringing down a human. When I would go into the UP I'd be sure to have a plethora of loaded magazines on me and if the trip was planned I significantly increased the amount of shooting drills I'd perform for about three weeks prior due to... wolves and cougar (though cougar has been spotted in the IMMEDIATE Detroit Metro Area and dogs are being killed by coyotes in the IMMEDIATE Detroit Metro Area).

Be safe. Be careful. Be armed. REALLY learn to shoot well and if you must have a dog choose the breed (and bloodlines) carefully.
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Old March 16, 2009, 11:39 PM   #135
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Try Again

Go back to post 95. Read the book I mentioned there. It is a fascinating read on wolf behavior.
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Old March 17, 2009, 09:41 AM   #136
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We have a library on wolf and grizzly books. * I will come back and list them when I have time. *

The ones that come to mind are Wild AnimalsI have Known,

The one on the Wolves in Russia, at Amazon- ( wolf scat is very toxic and wolves spread disease) also the

Wyoming Game Warden book, Wild Journey, about how studying and handling grizzly by grizzly bear bioligiost has made a man killer out of him in the authors opinion.

*I am dislexic- my spelling needs improvement. *

It is one thing to read about Europe, another to visit, but a third to live there. Happy trails folks.
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Old March 17, 2009, 10:42 AM   #137
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my wolf book list

maybe Of Predations and Life- Paul L Errington ( not really about wolves per say )

Wolves of Isle Royal and /or Wolves of Minong - Durward L. Allen

( wolf populations rise and fall- they go from feast to famine)

Wolves in Russia- Will N. Graves

(wipe out cattle with Hoof and Mouth- wipe out reindeer with disease- come into towns and kill people- kill kids in woods- dig into sheds and kill livestock )

Of Wolves and Men-- Barry Holstun Lopez

( pro- wolf book)

The Wolf- L.David Mech

Hints of Coyote and wolf Trapping- US Dept. of Interior Fish and wildlife Service circular #2 1955

(When I was young my government encouraged us to trap wolves. If wolves were wiped out in the 1930's why would the government teach us how to trap them in 1955 ? )

The Wolf in North American History-Stanley Paul Young

(Jamestown was the first settlement in Virginia, before America was born in 1776. The settlers in Jamestown could not raise sheep in large numbers because of the wolf problem. In 1897 setttlers were greatly annoyed by the wolf who would raid livestock in the middle of the night at their home. )


History has all the answers for the problems of man.

Wolves kill pigs and sheep- goats and lamas- horses- cattle and dogs;
also people when wolves are not hunted. Wolves in Idaho have not been hunted since 1995, for over ten years.
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Old March 17, 2009, 11:31 AM   #138
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The first wolf I ever saw was courtesy of a taxidermist; in the show window of the "Silverwolf" gun store in Detroit. This was in 1962. Yeah, a "silver" wolf. The forelegs were as thick as my forearms. I'd have to guess from the size that it weighed somewhere toward 150 pounds, live weight. In the store, they said it was from Isle Royale, IIRC. The island in the Great Lakes country with all the wolves.

Seriously impressive.
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Old March 17, 2009, 11:36 AM   #139
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As a kid in the thumb of michigan, the old farmers would jokinly warn us about the silver wolf that may exist there... Me and my buddy laughed it off as a mythical creature... NOW YA TELL ME!!! Dern glad my 4 foot 60 pound self didn't cross paths with a hungry one!
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Old March 17, 2009, 11:45 AM   #140
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I am still waiting for just one person to provide information where any one presents a study of wildlife populations including all environmental factors including wolf reintroduction and the effects on herd populations. All these groups are claiming the government ones are lies, so why have they not found anything to contradict them other than "He said/I saw" stories with no real merit. They certainly could afford to do so with all the money they are spending.

I would also even accept any report stating official livestock loss numbers for ranchers (ie: tax returns) pre and post wolf introduction correlated with environmental data.

These claims are easily shown through real data so you have to ask yourself why the data doesn't exist. If your answer is "guberment conspiracy" I think you need to find another answer.

Someone please PM me if anyone comes up with such factual information.
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:09 PM   #141
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Someone please PM me if PBP provides any links to support any of his arguments.

Thanks in advance.
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:12 PM   #142
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PBP, If dead wolf carcasses shot while stalking kids is anecdotal to you than you continue your belief all you want... While a totally different creature, the coyote is close enuff and they are now roaming inner city streets and hunting in subdivisions.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/324731_coyote23.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...917686,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17950832/
Given enuff time being protected by the nay sayers just like yourself who rather go thru life with blinders on failing to see the forest for the trees these will be wolves!
Pardon my harsh reply but it is folks like you who will harm the wolf far more than help it... Let us hunters and farmers deal with population control before your tax dollars are spent to poison them or hunt them from helicopters...
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:42 PM   #143
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PBP, you are so naive and wrong about the wolf issue. Come to Wyoming and experience it for yourself. Right now, you are talking out of your league.
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:58 PM   #144
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Come on now Hogdogs, we're talking wolves and you throw out evidence that includes coyotes?....good thinkin

There's acceptable losses that everybody has to deal with when contending with nature and then there's unacceptable losses. I'll agree that state F&G agencies are far better at making decisions about control than anybody in DC and I've stated that fact. But from everything I've seen/heard the anti-wolf crowd is not willing to accept "acceptable" losses. Control may be needed and I'd be glad to help but we shouldn't kill all, or even most, off.

For the hunters that claim that the wolves are killing of the herds..... why was there so much game 200 years ago? Heck of a lot more wolves and bears then, and lots and lots of deer and elk too. I don't believe that a couple thousand wolves in 3 states will decimate whole populations of deer and elk when 10's of thousands, possible 100's of thousands, of wolves couldn't do it 200 years ago. With the limited numbers of wolves today, wolves and hunters should have more than enough game to go around.
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Old March 17, 2009, 01:13 PM   #145
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Come on now Hogdogs, we're talking wolves and you throw out evidence that includes coyotes?....good thinkin
Quote:
While a totally different creature, the coyote is close enuff and they are now roaming inner city streets and hunting in subdivisions. Given enuff time being protected by the nay sayers just like yourself who rather go thru life with blinders on failing to see the forest for the trees these will be wolves!
Because just 30 years ago the yote population was low enuff that encroachment into populated areas was rare enuff that folks in washington state thought control was not needed...
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There's acceptable losses that everybody has to deal with when contending with nature and then there's unacceptable losses.
Acceptable losses due to predation on unfenced livestock must be understood but once a farmer/rancher OWNS AND FENCES HIS LAND Than any losses due to predation are unacceptable!
Quote:
For the hunters that claim that the wolves are killing of the herds..... why was there so much game 200 years ago? Heck of a lot more wolves and bears then, and lots and lots of deer and elk too.
I am but a dumb redneck but could there be any correlation to hardly no hunters per square mile? Or any correlation to much more wilderness for all to roam? I think my uneducated self might just be on to something here... Anyone agree with my thoughts on the "WHY" part?
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Old March 17, 2009, 01:31 PM   #146
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Acceptable losses due to predation on unfenced livestock must be understood but once a farmer/rancher OWNS AND FENCES HIS LAND Than any losses due to predation are unacceptable!
BS. Yes or no......should a farmer be able to kill every crop eating critter on land he owns?

Quote:
I am but a dumb redneck but could there be any correlation to hardly no hunters per square mile? Or any correlation to much more wilderness for all to roam? I think my uneducated self might just be on to something here... Anyone agree with my thoughts on the "WHY" part?
In the states included in this debate, much of the land remains as it was 100's of years ago. Wildlife has adapted and and our presence would have little effect on them if you remove hunting from the equation. But let's put hunting into the equation......The states in the debate had 1000's of Indians within the borders. These Indians only source for meat was wild game. They didn't have grocery stores and factory farms. Every bit of meat they ate through out the year was wild game. I'm betting these thousands of Indians killed as much wild game in a year as the present day hunters in these states do during the short and controlled hunting seasons. Top that off, our right to hunt does not supercede the right of a wolf to eat. It may have 150 years ago, not today.
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Old March 17, 2009, 01:48 PM   #147
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BS. Yes or no......should a farmer be able to kill every crop eating critter on land he owns?
ABSOLUTELY!!! Can he? NO! Due to game laws he is stuck there but deer are not also capable eating his dogs as well as crops...
I feel a land owner should have absolute dominion over his land so long as he is NOT selling hunts.
I feel game season and bag limits should be restricted to public lands... Also I feel no license should be required to hunt one's own land just like a 3 year old can legally drive my truck on my yard!
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In the states included in this debate, much of the land remains as it was 100's of years ago. Wildlife has adapted and and our presence would have little effect on them if you remove hunting from the equation.
That is absolute hogwash! There is a very small amount of land in any state that is as it was hundreds of years ago! That is the BS!!! Most of the land is urban, sub-urban or agriculture at this time with a tiny amount set aside as wilderness...
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But let's put hunting into the equation......The states in the debate had 1000's of Indians within the borders.
Darn it man! I don't like debating a person that gives me all my ammo!
You lost you debate with that statement... 1,000's of indians with stick and string versus millions of white, modern hunters with superior weapons???
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I'm betting these thousands of Indians killed as much wild game in a year as the present day hunters in these states do during the short and controlled hunting seasons.
I am betting you lost that bet and I also assure you the indians ate far less wild meat than you realize. One village/tribe ate one deer at a time as refrigeration had yet to be invented... When was the last time you seen a whiteman feed the whole block of people his one deer?
Quote:
Top that off, our right to hunt does not supercede the right of a wolf to eat. It may have 150 years ago, not today.
Wolves, nor any animal has "RIGHTS"! They, unlike liberals, know there are no guarantees in life! We have dominion as stewards over the earth and everything on it. It is up to us to handle it with a careful conservancy but to stick yer fingers in your ears and sing LA LA LA LA LA with closed eyes is not responsible stewardship.
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Old March 17, 2009, 01:56 PM   #148
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Okay L_KILLKENNY and PBP, A question... Lets say yall are both walking your dogs (pretend here if you don't have a dog or replace with cat or other pet animal) down the street and are armed with your choice of firearm... You find yourselves surronded by wolves but the wolves seem content to target your pets... You are just going to let the lease go and feed the pets to the wolves? Or shoot them before your pet is destined to the realm of wolf crap?
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Old March 17, 2009, 02:14 PM   #149
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Okay L_KILLKENNY and PBP
hogdogs - trying to talk sense to these two is like trying to talk to a stone wall. Neither one has any actual experience with wolves out in the wild. So, why try?

They're obviously part of the problem and I would lay odds that they both have hidden agendas!
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Old March 17, 2009, 02:25 PM   #150
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PBP-----True numbers

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/wil.../elkupdate.cfm

If you look at how at the numbers under wolf denisty "very high" becomes unacceptable. I have lived in Idaho all my life. This is a new game we are playing and it is just a little shocking. It is very new!

This story below is about a story with 8 wolves that come in and kill a cougar that was eating on an elk kill. The predators are killing the predators. It is not completely widespread in the state but it is in my backyard. And it is just not that fun.

http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?...=03&var_Day=04

When you live here it is like a slow trainwreck. I have been planning my new rifle for sometime and having a great time waiting for the slaughter.
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