Series 70 1911's...drop safe?

[givo08]

As the title implies, are series 70 1911's safe if dropped when they are cocked & locked and 1 in the chamber?

[TexasCop]

it all depends on how high you drop it from and how it lands. The series 80 firing pin safeties were added because of the "possibility" that if a pistol was dropped from the right height and landed in just the right way that the firing pin would move forward from the intertia and cause the round to go off.

Kind of like winning the lottery in my opinion, all my 1911's are series 70 style.

Plus I've been in lots of training where dropping a gun (or any item of your equipment) caused a lot of pushups... I obviously try not to make a habit of it...

[PinnedAndRecessed]

I'll respond before somebody who really knows something shows up.



No. The Series 70 will not fire in the condition you describe if dropped.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

The series 80 firing pin safeties were added because of the "possibility" that if a pistol was dropped from the right height and landed in just the right way that the firing pin would move forward from the intertia

That was not the question. You're talking about a hammer which is resting on a loaded chamber. That's why the block was added. In that circumstance, theoretically, the weapon could discharge although many would dispute that.

The question was about a 1911 cocked and locked. Because of the angle of the hammer relative to the descending firearm, it would be impossible for the weapon to fire. Even if it broke through the safety, and the grip safety, the force exerted on the hammer would be in the wrong direction to discharge the round.

Again, no, a cocked and locked Series 70 cannot be made to fire merely by dropping it.

[Lurper]

Texas is correct.
The series 80 parts were added to eliminate the possibilty of the firing pin moving forward and striking the firing pin if the pistol was dropped. The half-cock notch is supposed to catch the hammer if the sear accidently diengages without the trigger being pulled. The firing pin block has the added benefit of blocking the firing pin if the sear disengages and the half-cock notch does not catch the hammer when the trigger is not pulled.

Either way, there is very little danger of a series 70 discharging when it is dropped.

[Jim Watson]

I put a primed case in the chamber of a USGI 1911 I did not mind abusing a little and dropped it from head height onto a vinyl tile floor in various conditions and orientations. The primer did not fire and was not even marked.
I had not worried about drop safety much before, I don't at all now.
Change the firing pin spring about every third recoil spring, oftener if you do a lot of dryfire. Wolff includes one with each recoil spring anyhow.

[RickB]

The California drop tests have the gun mounted in a fixture, to ensure that it will land on the muzzle, because otherwise, we'd all be dead before they accumulated any meaningful results. I've spent some time with a gentleman who has been gunsmithing for over fifty years, and who used to be the psitolsmithing editor for American Handgunner, back in the day, and he said his attempts at drop-testing the 1911 turned into something of a test to see if a dropped 1911 would ever land on the muzzle; the balance and "aerodynamics" of the pistol cause it to not fall muzzle-down, so the chances of the gun discharging when dropped must include the unlikely occurence of it actually landing on the muzzle, regardless of the height from which it is dropped.
When a sailor was killed as a result of a dropped pistol, in the 1920s, the Navy determined that a within-spec pistol would have to be dropped from something like 20 feet, AND land on the muzzle, for the firing pin to move forward with sufficient force to ignite the primer of a chambered round.
In spite of all of this, I've heard more than one instructor say they have witnessed 1911s fire when dropped to the ground from a belt holster.

[auto45]

This is a tough one. I have "read" both sides where it's "almost" impossible for it to fire and a study where they had the 1911 setting off the primer as low as 6 feet, with a worn FP spring. Maybe it had a longer FP also, don't know.

IMO, something is "up" if manufacturers "modified" their guns for the CA tests.
If it can't happen, why did they put FP safeties or at least, lighter FP's and stronger FP springs? Didn't all manufactures do that? That's really a question, not a statement. I know the larger companies did, but Baer, EB, Wilson, etc??

[Ausserordeutlich]

Whether or not the 70 Series will fire when dropped off the top of the Empire State Building, on its muzzle (physical impossibility), with the hammer cocked and the safety locked, is irrelevant to his discussion. The firing pin safety block of the 80 Series has nothing to do with hammer movement.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

In spite of all of this, I've heard more than one instructor say they have witnessed 1911s fire when dropped to the ground from a belt holster.

Again, the original poster was referring to a 1911 in condition 1. A series 70 cannot be made to fire, by dropping, in condition 1.

[ranburr]

From the year 1911 until sometime in the 1980s it was drop safe. That changed in the 1980s because a lawyer said so.

ranburr

[RickB]

I'm among those who think it HIGHLY UNLIKELY that a dropped 1911 will discharge upon impact, but what is it about a cocked 'n' locked Series 70 that absolutely precludes it? The position of the hammer, and/or the safety, has no impact (pun) on a muzzle-drop discharge.
There are a few posts in this thread that appear to approach the question from the angle of the gun being dropped on the hammer, and thereby causing a discharge. This is almost an impossibility, as the hammer is protected by the grip safety, so can't really receive a blow that would cause it to drop. But, that doesn't address the issue of the inertial firing pin and muzzle drops, which was the point of the initial question, wasn't it? Series 80 does address all of these eventualities, as it will stop the firing pin from moving, whether it's due to inertia (muzzle drop), blow to the hammer or firing pin, or catastrophic parts failure (broken sear nose, etc.).

[PinnedAndRecessed]

what is it about a cocked 'n' locked Series 70 that absolutely precludes it?

The original poster spoke very generally. Since he specified nothing in particular other than a) dropping and b) cocked and locked, we conclude he's talking about a typical scenario. A typical scenario would be dropping the weapon from waist high.

A condition one 1911 cannot be made to fire when dropped from waist high. I challenge you to produce proof that it can.

Yet another poster said,

the Navy determined that a within-spec pistol would have to be dropped from something like 20 feet, AND land on the muzzle, for the firing pin to move forward with sufficient force to ignite the primer of a chambered round.

That's not a typical scenario. That would be dropping the weapon off the roof of a two story house. That would happen so infrequently as to be a nonstatistic.

In spite of all of this, I've heard more than one instructor say they have witnessed 1911s fire when dropped to the ground from a belt holster.

That's hearsay. I would still like proof. If I didn't care more for my 1911s, I'd do it just to show it can't be done.

[john in jax]

I think you could design a test that would make one AD, but as mentioned above it is VERY unlikely.

Sort of off topic - - In the late '80s I was buying up misc 1911 parts at gun shows and came across a couple of firing pins that were TOO LONG! They were supposed to be mil spec and fit perfectly, but with the hammer down on a GI 1911 the firing pin would protrude just a little into the chamber. Only 2 out of 6 or 8 pins I bought in the course of a year were too long, and despite looking carefully at the next couple of gunshows I never found any more. Learn from my experience, check and check again when you buy parts from those guys selling stuff out of tackle boxes at gun shows.

[givo08]

I'm talking about dropping it from waist height in a typical scenario. As in you are carrying it C&L and take the gun off at the end of a day and it slips and falls.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

I'm talking about dropping it from waist height in a typical scenario. As in you are carrying it C&L and take the gun off at the end of a day and it slips and falls.

It can't be done. Not in condition one. The hammer isn't going to contact the firing pin because of the grip safety and thumb safety.

And there wouldn't be enough momentum to push the firing pin hard enough to detonate a primer. I don't care how weak the spring is. Not at that height.

Now, if the hammer is resting on a loaded chamber, that's different. I wouldn't care to speculate on that scenario.

[CDH]

Then just out of curiosity, does the Series 80 do any better of a job if dropped with the hammer down on a loaded chamber?

If so, that would be an interesting carry scenario because some people are uncomfortable carrying C&L and they certainly should not carry a Series 70 with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

But can a Series 80 be carried that way safely due to the Series 80 design? I don't think that anyone yet has explained specifically the exact situation that the Series 80 is suppose to prevent an AD. Does anyone REALLY KNOW other than to say it's a "lawyered" mod?

Just wondering.

Carter

[brittanyboy]

Here's my two cents. I don't think the hammer has anything to with the drop test. It's inertia of the firing pin when the gun hits the ground the cartridge and chamber stop suddenly and the firing pin continues forward to strike the primer. Is there enough energy to ignite the round? Depends on the surface the pistol strikes. Some weapons notably the Springfield M1A has been prone to slamfiring. Thats just slamming the bolt on a chambered round. So the possiblity exists, but the probablity is low.

[shield20]

The grip safety and the thumb safety do NOT act on the hammer. The grip safety works on the trigger, and the slide lock works on the sear. IF the sear broke, there is nothing to stop the hammer (still under mainspring pressure) from hitting the firing pin, and without a fp safety, nothing to stop the fp from hitting the primer. This is what I would fear about dropping a 1911, esp. on the hammer, and with MIM parts. DO I worry?..only a bit because of MIM.

The 80's series fp would keep the fp from contacting the primer unless the trigger was pulled - no matter what the hammer did. That seems like a reasonable mod to me. A perceived danger is lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber, where the trigger must be pulled to release the hammer, circumventing all the safeties. CZ with the SA/DA apparently doesn't have too much problem with this - they warn you about being carefull - but recommend it if the user doesn't like SA carry. (they still have a 1/2 notch too though)

I do believe it would take alot of force (i.e. height) to get the inertia firing pin to overcome the spring AND strike the pin with enough umpfh to set off a round (w/o a fp safety)

The M1/M1a do not have inertia firing pins (no spring).

[BlueTrain]

Because life is not simple and straightforward, it follows that other factors may enter into such an event as dropping a pistol. I once knocked my Browning HP off a shelf seven feet off a concrete floor. It wasn't loaded but the law of probability evidently states that it will land on the hammer, which it did. It wasn't a Colt but the same questions arise, since current Brownings have a similiar device, I think.

I don't know if US Army issue .45 cartridges had harder primers than commercial production but the difference can be the difference between an accidental discharge, including slam fire, and normal chambering. I've never heard of it happening with a pistol, however. Note that a lot of self loading firearms, usually called automatics, will dent the primer upon chambering a round, at least enough to see. One automatic in particular I don't think even has a firing pin spring (the Makarov) and the firing pin looks for all the world like a horseshoe nail. That is worth double checking but you get the point.

The firing pin safety makes stripping a Colt require three hands. Star automatics, so similar to Colts, all have long firing pins. And no grip safety. They don't make them anymore.

[Tamara]

FWIW, when I got back from Oleg's place last Sunday night, I came up the stairs to my crib with a bundle of stuff in my arms. Atop the bundle was my holstered '66 Colt in Condition One. As I elbowed my way through the front door I felt the bundle in my arms get a couple pounds lighter all of a sudden...

"Oh, darn," I said. (Well, it wasn't really "darn", but you get the picture)

*CLUNK!* said the heavily-customized, much-loved, very expensive pistol as it hit the linoleum.

It did not, however, say *bang!*.

There. I've done my bit for science this week.

[BUSTER51]

no,not In A Million Years !

[PinnedAndRecessed]

This is what I would fear about dropping a 1911, esp. on the hammer, and with MIM parts.

He said Series 70. Series 70 had no MIM.

If he meant Series 70 Replica then that might be different.

I still don't believe that dropping either variation (in condition one) onto a hard surface from waist height could possibly create enough momentum in the firing pin to discharge the weapon.

[shield20]

Ahh - good point! Then no worries!

[Seraph]

It could happen, but you're probably more likely to see a unicorn.