The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 12, 2013, 10:31 AM   #26
sir_n0thing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2011
Location: WI, USA
Posts: 281
Un-freaking-believable. This easily could have ended extremely badly.
__________________
You can take the Texan out of Texas, but you can't take Texas out of the Texan.
sir_n0thing is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 12:26 PM   #27
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
Someone needs to go to jail for this stupidity.
Depending on jurisdiction, some variation of disorderly conduct would be the only thing I could think of charging them with. Proving damages on a civil level would also be difficult.

I suppose the best thing is to publicize the names of the theater manager and everyone involved and see that this incident haunts them for a good long time.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 01:28 PM   #28
Crazy88Fingers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2010
Location: WesTex
Posts: 958
If any of you folks in Missouri are looking for a management position, there may be one opening up soon.
__________________
"And I'm tellin' you son, well it ain't no fun, staring straight down a .44"
-Lynyrd Skynyrd
Crazy88Fingers is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 02:12 PM   #29
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
Quote:
Somebody mentioned orange tips. I played airsoft when I was 14 and was very up on the laws. It's illegal to sell an airsoft gun or BB gun under a certain power without an orange tip. Anything above 600 FPS, I believe, is an airgun and treated differently. At least in Florida.
Wish it were here in Ohio.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Umarex-XBG...ndingMethod=rr

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosman-P1...ndingMethod=rr

Several of them.

As far as I know there has been no issues other than when the Bad Guys use them in a robbery.

I realize they can paint them or in some cases pull them off so maybe they are less ussfull anyway. Might save a kid that leaves them orange though.

Back to the topic question....

I definitely could see my self drawing my firearm and taking cover if possible.

However, unless i was sure it was real i wouldn't fire as well as I would assume most here wouldn't either.

The question I have is would someone who did fire and someone was hurt, would they likely be in trouble in some states? I am just not familiar with the law in many states and I wonder if both the planners/executors of the fake attack and the person who fired be in big trouble? In some states?

Would be one of those real sticky ones many have referred to.

Might be a good Question for the law section of TFL. Think I will sit on that one. Maybe think on it a little more.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 02:32 PM   #30
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
This ties in neatly with the "Am I Wrong?" thread in Tactics and Training, with regard to making sure one understands the situation.
MLeake is offline  
Old May 12, 2013, 02:50 PM   #31
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wreck-n-Crew
However, unless i was sure it was real i wouldn't fire as well as I would assume most here wouldn't either.
I don't think that's a valid assumption, especially not shortly after both Aurora and Sandy Hook. If I pay money to see a commercial motion picture, that's the "entertainment" I paid for and that I expect to receive. If I see a bunch of people dashing into the theater pointing very realistic-looking guns at me, why would I think it is anything OTHER than "real"?

I'm not saying I absolutely would open fire, but I'd say there's a very real probability I would. If you were being mugged in the parking lot behind a bar, would you wait for the mugger to shoot before you shot, to be sure it was a "real" mugging? I wouldn't. Why would I react any differently in a theater, when confronted by multiple assailants?

Frank Ettin has posted numerous times that the standard for using deadly force in self-defense is the "reasonable man" test: What would a hypothetical "reasonable man" do if confronted with the same situation in which you acted in self-defense? Personally, I think a "reasonable man" confronted with multiple armed adversaries would probably open fire preemptively. I certainly DON'T think a "reasonable man" would sit there and say to himself, "Oh, nothing to worry about, it's probably just part of the show."
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 08:01 AM   #32
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 11,131
Whoever participated in this piece of stupidity will eventually end up winning the Darwin Award.
Skans is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 11:40 AM   #33
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
Missouri is definitely a gun state with concealed carry laws and they are certainly on the 10A side of trying to keep the Fed out of State business at least as far as the 2A is concerned.

Yea, this was a bad idea that could have gone very wrong.

Think of the timing if local LE had showed up just as a CC guy opens up on one of the Cosplay dudes.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 11:41 AM   #34
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,823
What Gary Griffiths said. They're lucky someone didn't shoot back. It was a stupid stunt.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 12:04 PM   #35
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
Quote:
So if you were sitting there with your LCP - what to do? It's like that surprise attack on the school under discussion elsewhere.
I see someone in a tac type outfit come into a theater, armed with what looks like an AR-15 and he doesn't have "Police" "FBI" "ATF" or "Sheriff" on his gear in big letters I am drawing and firing before you can say "Dog Meat".

Every "SWAT" type guy you see who is a LEO has some sort of clear identification on his gear.

Right or wrong, you hesitate long enough in that situation to figure out if the gun is real or not you probably are going to get shot if the gun is real..

In this case though it sounds like the "Gun" in question was easily identifible as a toy by a red or orange tip.

In regards to understanding a situation, it wouldn't matter if it was on the streets or in a theater. If someone has what looks like a real gun and is using it in a threatening manner towards me they are a legit target. That is called reasonable fear for ones life and safety. An orange or red tip sticks out like a sore thumb at the end of a firearm.

As a kid though I played with plenty of toy guys that looked just like the real thing. being a really dumb kid at one point I even removed the orange tips from sone of my toys.
__________________
"....The swords of others will set you your limits".

Last edited by Patriot86; May 13, 2013 at 12:13 PM.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 12:36 PM   #36
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Patriot86, let's flip this around and say the threat had been legit, but were otherwise identical...

You are saying you would proactively initiate a shootout with SEVEN armed individuals in a crowded place?

Check the photo with the link. Ten people in costume, of which seven are in tac gear or trench and apparently armed.

Edit: Seems to me a better strategy would be to quietly try to get the family to and through an exit, which could then be used as a chokepoint or funnel, prior to any hostilities commencing.
MLeake is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 12:45 PM   #37
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
Seems to me a better strategy would be to quietly try to get the family to and through an exit, which could then be used as a chokepoint or funnel, prior to any hostilities commencing.
You're absolutely right.

But, if push comes to shove, and I don't know those are airsoft guns, there's a possibility I'd feel compelled to shoot. Then I'd find out that, rather than breaking up an attempted shooting, I'd just maimed or killed a mall ninja with poor decision-making skills who was pulling a prank.

That would be a hard thing to live with. I wonder if these people understand how close they came to being seriously harmed.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 12:46 PM   #38
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
Well we did go see Iron Man III Saturday. We were in the back in a special dining theater with 1-3 the seats of normal - aka an excellent view of the rest of the theater. Between us and the other couple were two competition level shooters and former para rescue. Texas is a Shall Issue CHL state.


You figure out what would have happened.

Last edited by zincwarrior; May 13, 2013 at 12:53 PM.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 12:49 PM   #39
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
Quote:
Quote:
All they saw was people with guns, and possibly their lives flashing before their eyes.

Something in my mind would have shouted Aurora, and I'd have gone to condition red. Even if I hadn't shot, I'd be very, very unhappy, and I've had taken steps to ensure that everyone involved lost their employment and were subject to some sort of charges.

So, is it true about the surprise ending, that Tony Stark is really the Red Skull's son?
Well I think the article noting one guy's PTSD flaring up. Thats at least one winnable lawsuit-and rightly so. Every person in that theater can make a claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress, and win it. The manager's fired shortly if not already.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 12:55 PM   #40
tg461
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2011
Posts: 7
Let's have a fake attack on Iron Man 3

Oh this would have been bad. I'm a cop that carries every day especially the theater. GF is an employee of the FBI who CCs.
tg461 is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 01:02 PM   #41
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
Quote:
Patriot86, let's flip this around and say the threat had been legit, but were otherwise identical...

You are saying you would proactively initiate a shootout with SEVEN armed individuals in a crowded place?

Check the photo with the link. Ten people in costume, of which seven are in tac gear or trench and apparently armed.

Edit: Seems to me a better strategy would be to quietly try to get the family to and through an exit, which could then be used as a chokepoint or funnel, prior to any hostilities commencing.
If they are active shooters (shooting) then yes.
Better to fight to the end than line up and be killed like a sheep.
If its some sort of terrorist/hostage takeover, no shooting off the bat the ole "sit down and shut up" commands then not much fighting to do, just comply and wait for an opening. 1 VS 7 are sucky odds.

Thinking of a theater with people shooting, odds are all the exits will be covered. Its really a no win situation.
__________________
"....The swords of others will set you your limits".
Patriot86 is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 01:40 PM   #42
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Yep, but that goes back to (again) assessing the situation and making the best call one can in that particular instance.

Again, tying back into the "Am I Wrong?" thread in T&T, to those who think everything is black and white...
MLeake is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 02:07 PM   #43
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,649
Are Americans really this dumb?... I'll answer my own question, Yes, yes Tucker they are. Palm meet forehead. Jeez

I'm going to petition Webster or some other relevant authority to change the definition of common sense, because common sense as we know it is dead.
__________________
Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250
Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!!
If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging.
OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 05:08 PM   #44
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,786
Another way to look at this is to ask yourself, "If someone had fired, and I was on their jury, would I consider this to be a justifiable shoot?" I have to answer yes: dark theater, visibly armed intruders, and the events of recent history all add up to a reasonable fear of death or serious injury on the part of the theater audience.

It is truly fortunate that this did not result in a tragedy; it may yet result in lawsuits, PTSD cases, and other completely forseeable complications.

The manager defends his decision. Apparently he is too much of a bone-head to realize he is a bone-head.
TailGator is offline  
Old May 13, 2013, 05:25 PM   #45
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
Quote:
The manager defends his decision.
At least until corporate gets involved. There's no way a major corporation is going to back him on this.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.09288 seconds with 8 queries